| Author |
Message |
    
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 02:04 am: | 
|
Brupska,
You are hanging off too much and probably feeling it in your arms. Try only moving one cheek off the bike and then rotating your outside shoulder into the turn. That will make it easier to look through the corner, too (you look like you'd have to strain your neck pretty hard).
The end result shoul dbe riding the track won't wear you out as much, you'll be more relaxed and in more control.
Vik |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 03:31 pm: |
|
Bgrrrl,
You are definitely needing to hang off more. Not much left in that second photo. There are tons of benefits, not only moving the CG so the bike won't lean so far, but you are also a lot more likely to be able to pull the bike down if it starts to highside. I always like the closer I could get not just my knee but my body to the ground; then it starts becoming a comfortable close friend instead of something hard that I don't want to hit.
And don't worry a lot about entire body position perfection, just flick your lower body off into the corner and pull the bike along with you. After that, whatever feels good is good.
You will see many different amounts of upper body and helmet locations even among MotoGP riders. Some have their heads leaned with the bike, some keep their heads perpendicular with the ground. |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 04:17 pm: |
|
"...just flick your lower body off into the corner and pull the bike along with you. After that, whatever feels good is good. "
Where did you hear that? It goes against everything I've learned.
Vik |
Jersey_thunder
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
|
Buellgirlie,
congrats on your new toy...looks like you 2 are going to have alot of fun together!!
great pics!!
jt |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
|
"Where did you hear that? It goes against everything I've learned. "
Me too. Practice does not make perfect... It makes permanent. Be careful with what you practice.
Dora... I run a section of road that has MANY very tight 90-180's one after another. The best way I can explain moving from one side to the other quickly is to drive the bike around under you, while throwing the bike side to side with your knees...
The reason I explain it as moving the bike around under you as opposed to moving around on the bike is because that's really what it feels like.
I've heard it said that quick transitions on a motorcycle feels a lot like slalom skiing (as far as the sensations of movement anyway). If you can imagine that... in the center of the transition a skier isn't really moving their body weight so much as steering their skis around under them. Same thing on a motorcycle... In the middle of a transition between two very close turns there's a bit of a weightless sensation... Or at least that's how I interpret it.
All that said... I believe that Vik is an instructor so I'm sure he can explain it better than I can  . |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 06:46 pm: |
|
Eeeek,
I didn't hear it, I did it when riding AMA and still do it. I was fast, and it works for me...but not being an instructor, maybe I am explaining it wrong. And maybe it just doesn't work for others.
But I will tell you that many styles work for different fast guys. So, I can't tell if Brupska is doing something wrong for him. I can assure you I could find photos of top riders in similar positions. So I'm sure I can't do a lot of diagnosis off of one or two pictures. But I can tell that Buellgirlie is out of ground clearance. |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 07:13 pm: |
|
There are race winners at all levels that have greatly different body position. I go off what works for me and what I was taught by Tony Meiring, Chuck Sorenson and Freddie Spencer instructor Ken Hill (I'm sure you have a list that is probably more extensive). I don't win races, though and have never taken an AMA grid, so I've still got a lot to work on.
I'm always trying to learn more and you are right, one specific set of formula doesn't work for everyone. I do see a lot of people that struggle with bikes coming out of corners because they throw their butts way off the seat and hol onto the bars for dear life.
Vik
(Message edited by eeeeek on May 03, 2006) |
Henrik
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 08:20 pm: |
|
"... holding on for dear life".
I've found that supporting the outside elbow on the tank helps me know when I'm far enough over as well as help "hold" me on the bike.
I'm also looking forward to trying out the new sticky tank patches on the market now. That too would help feeling more secure when hanging off.
Henrik
(no racer, no instructor but slow as all get-out ) |
Brupska
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 09:15 pm: |
|
Thank you Eeeeek. That body position is pretty comfortable for me. My outside arm is relaxed. When I am hanging off like that I can take my arms off the bars and stay on the bike while it is sitting on the stands. The next time I am at the track I will try the one cheek method too. When I lean that much I have to have my knee pucks moved up really high on my velcro. Almost up with my knee about half way off the velcro. Maybe if I am doing less hanging off the bike. My pucks will touch the ground where they are supposed to be on the suit. Thanks. Sorry BGirl for jacking your thread. By the way nice pics. Brad |
Buellgirlie
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 12:43 am: |
|
no prob guys. interesting reading. and will be put to the test in 36 hours
be on the track friday morning - yeehaw!
D |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 09:47 am: |
|
Have fun, Bgirlie! |
Blublak
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 09:54 am: |
|
Dora.. "Hi!" Haven't really talked to since.. Where was it? On that train at the last BRAG event?
Anyway, I'm reading through this and thought I'd give you some of my thoughts on the whole turning thing. First, I don't prescribe to a set 'school' of 'how it must be done'. I think I pretty much do both the major thoughts. I body steer and I counter steer.
On 'hanging off', here's a few thoughts that I hope explain it in a way that makes some sense.
First off, what you are trying to accomplish by hanging off is to move the CG (Center of Gravity) of the motorcycle allowing you to keep more of the tire in contact with the ground while turning, thereby give you greater control and feel and allowing you to go deeper, faster, into a turn.
Ok, so you're trying to change the CG, you can't physically alter the bike while riding to do this, so you have to move the weight you can control. Yours. While moving just your butt may be attractive in and of itself, you really need to move the bulk of your mass, which means your upper body must shift over, not just your hips. So, you must teach yourself to do something that seems counter intuitive, get your head and trunk over to the side you are turning too, moving it closer to the black top whizzing by. A good barometer might be to use the forks as a gauge. In a straight line, your gig line (center line of your body) should be in the middle of the two fork adjuster hubs. When you turn, move your gig line to that sides fork. Step one, as always.. Relax, a death grip on the bars will lead to problems as your turns get faster and deeper, now looking through the turn, your head should be more or less in line with your inside wrist and your upper body is leaning into the turn.
Now, the next part of the equation: Move your lower body at the same time. Shift your weight to the inside of the turn, I tend to physically push down with my inside foot, pushing 'in' with my outside leg on the tank/frame. That act alone will start my counter steer for me, so I'm not fighting with the bars; tension is the enemy while trying to be smooth. Combine this with the side motion of your body and you will find you have your 'outside' buttock touching the seat. You're 'inside' buttock in the breeze and your body hanging off the bike in the turn. Don't get in the habit of trying to crawl around the air box cover, since if you are curling into a ball atop the machine, you are basically trying to negate the benefits of moving the weight by moving it back across the top of the bike. You want the motion to be side to side. Straight across the seat, kind of like a side squat kind of maneuver. That's something you can practice at home and you probably will want too since doing several hundred of those in a day will really work out your legs and after the first day of doing this you may be a little sore.
Remember, be smooth. Don't worry about fast. The smoother you are, the less you upset the machine, the greater the speed will come up. So go for smooth above all else, speed will follow.
I hope this helped a little. I hope it was clear enough that you feel you can now take the basic idea and go practice it. Remember, a good coach can help you with these things, watching you as you ride, seeing things that you can't see. I had someone that's very, very fast once tell me that he tries NOT to drag his knee, as anything dragging would be drawing speed off his ride with added resistance. I've also seen this same fellow with an elbow basically on the ground. So for him, it's a matter of taking it that far over, at that high a speed.
Disclaimer: I'm not a racer and I don't play one on TV. These are the simple ramblings of a guy offering his two cents. |
Skully
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 06:49 pm: |
|
Dora - the bike looks great and looks like you are having fun.
Keith |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 07:23 pm: |
|
BluBlak mentioned "crawling over" or "balling up around" the tank... You can see that to a slight degree in the above pic. The spine being leaned to the outside relative to the bike's lean. It is a survival reaction in some cases, it's the right thing to do in others. I've got pictures of top level riders doing it. The thing about a picture is that it only tells about one moment. If you watch a clip you may be able to tell that there was a reason for it, so you can't just say "bad form" as such. That said...
You'll notice in this pic that McWilliams spine is "mostly" at a greater lean angle than the bike, but it turns back near the upper back because he's got his shoulders twisted into the turn.
Here's another one...
It's more difficult to tell... but it looks to me like the spine would be at more lean angle than the bike there as well, and the shoulders seem to be twisted a little into the turn. Also notice that he's looking far into the turn and not right in front.
Another???
Picotte is widely regarded as a good rider for sure... and he's all crossed up in that pic. This tells me that there was a good reason for it in that pic, he made a mistake, or that perfect form isn't the only thing that matters  . |
Skully
| | Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 08:17 am: |
|
"You can see that to a slight degree in the above pic"
The wide, Crossroads bars prevent my upper body from moving any farther to the left. If I did, it would mean letting go of the right hand bar.
Keith |
|
