| Author | Message | ||
     Captpete |
Chip, Thanks for the tip. I'll give Pammy a call on Monday. (I'm too old to be skeered a women.) Capt. Pete | ||
| X1mchip |
Capt. Pete You haven't meet Pammy! WAIT A MINUTE, I HAVEN'T EITHER! Chip | ||
| Tripper |
I have met Pammy. Be skeered, be VERY skeered. ps. she knows these motors. Wish I lived closer to Fla. | ||
| Blake |
Capt Pete: Great story man! Jose: "Here we go again." I do admit, My words may have been a little strong. I've changed my own tranny lube at least 7 times now. Every time, it's taken the full quart to bring the level up to just touch the spring. I've NEVER had any tranny pukage or "?clutch drag?". I suspect some shops may not take the same care (read "time") to drain trannies that I do. I drain mine steaming hot and rock the bike to ensure all possible drains out. As far as the oil filter thread. I ain't finished there either. The truth is out there. Let's find it together. BigJ: My point to all this technical debate is to find truth. Recall when years ago many of us believed the "truth" meant that using synthetic oil in our bike would lead to untold miseries and mechanical nightmares? Do any of us really know, that our oil filter is any different in operational specifications (filtration efficiency, bypass pressure, anti-drain valve...) than a car filter? I don't. I haven't yet seen any evidence here to suggest otherwise. Personally, and this is only my opinion, and I run only HD oil filters on my M2 (M2's that is  ... I'm starting to suspect that there is no significant (problematic) difference between using a good car oil filter or a HD oil filter. I'm thinking that if you were to use a good quality (AC Delco, Purolator, Champion...) car oil filter; there would be no problems, no difference in bypass operation, no diference in anti-drainback operation compared to the HD filters. Will I use a car filter? No, not yet anyway. As to my questions from the other day (see above). 1. José', you kinda disagreed then agreed! Oil should definitely have a higher pressure on the filter outflow side than on the inflow side! I'm not sure what you mean by "absolute" pressure. When speaking of pressure, the term "absolute" usually refers to the magnitude of pressure relative to a perfect vaccumm (absolute pressure (psia)= gauge pressure (psig) plus atmospheric pressure (patm)). By "differential" I mean the "difference" in pressure between two points/regions. Are you saying that the bypass valve opens solely based upon the pressure at the inflow side?  That is not the case. It opens based on the pressure difference/delta/differential. How about an analogy to really confuse the issue?... The bypass valve acts analogously to a diode in an electric circuit where current = flow rate, and voltage = pressure. A diode will not pass current (acts like an open circuit or infinite resistance) until the voltage across it (difference in voltage between the diode's + and - terminals) exceeeds a certain value at which time it acts like a near short circuit (very little resistance). Kinda like me, I don't really get moving without a good jolt sometimes.  Similarly, the filter's bypass valve won't open as long as pressure at the filter's outflow side does not drop too far below that of the inflow side. The pressure drop across the filter media (what causes the differential pressure in the first place) is relatively small until the filter starts to clog or the flow rate approaches the filter media's capacity. As it clogs, it takes more pressure to force the oil through the filter (duh). Note that, the pressure used to force oil through a clogged filter is lost, no longer available to pump oil through the engine. So some smarty put the bypass valve in the filter to keep oil flowing to the enigne at proper rate. This not only protects against clogging, but also ensures adequate oil supply to the engine at high speeds where the demand can exceed even a clean filter's capacity to flow oil with minimal pressure drop. When the pressure "difference" between the inflow and outflow sides of the valve increases enough to threaten adequate oil supply to the enginer, the valve's spring preload is exceeded and oil can START to flow around the filter directly into the center of the filter's outflow port. Since car and HD oil filter media are the same, their pressure loss during normal operation will be comparable. The bypass valves are therefore probably be set to open at comparable pressures. If the car engine, at normal operating speeds requires say 40 psi oil pressure at the oil filter outlet to keep all the bearings happy, what would happen if the oil pump was rated at 50 psi max and the bypass valve required 22 psi to actuate? The engine would see 50 - 22 = 28 psi. The bearings would be starved for oil. Bad things could happen. Can you see now why the bypass valves for car and HD filters are probably not much different? It's because they are actuated not by the pump pressure, but rather differential (delta) pressure between their inflow and outflow chambers. Answers? 1. The bypass valve opens when force excerted by the unfiltered (inflow) oil on the input side of the valve (top in pic above) exceeds the force of the spring PLUS the force of the filtered (output)oil acting on the output side of the valve. So yes, it's differential pressure that actuates the valve. 2. "Which one needs the high pressure bypass valve?" A trick question. They need the same bipass valve pressure. Cause it's the differential pressure that opens the valve. 3. That was an easy one. One point for using a larger filter, maybe? 4. "What are the primary factors effecting the pressure differential accross a clean filter's bypass valve?" Oil viscosity, filter media flow capacity, flow rate. 5. "Would a 4-6 psi anti-drain check-ball valve work in a high pressure system? Or would the check ball need to actuate at much higher pressure?" It would work fine at 4-6 psi. 6. "If the pressure at the filter output is 12 psi, what is the pressure just past the check-ball if the check ball actuates at ~5 psi?" Simple, 12-5=7psi. (analogous to the constant voltage drop across a diode once it's threshold value is exceeded). Hey, here we go again! Cool stuff. (hope you electrical types appreciated the analogies). Blake (needs to be practicing humility but it's really difficult with TWO Buells to my name ) | ||
| Blake |
I don't know the answer to the max oil pressure pump output question either. I bet the gearotor pumps are able to generate enough pressure to blow through a clogged filter and always keep the pressure at the engine within specifications (ie. the pump is capacity driven, not pressure driven). I'm embarassed to admit that I don't thoroughly understand the gearotor operational characteristics. Will each revolution always force "X" amount of oil out the pump? If so, then the pump, if it's drive assy and constitution is adequate, could hit very high pressures. Anyone know for sure? | ||
| José_Quiñones |
I still think the ball/spring opens only based on the input side, which is why I call it absolute pressure. I'm off to Myrtle Beach I'll try to get back into this next weekend. | ||
| Captpete |
Good morning, all… The rain has moved on, skies are clear, and the roads are nearly dry, so this won’t be nearly as verbose as my previous posting. It’s time to proceed with the break-in proceedin’s. What I failed to say earlier (1744 words, and something was left out??) was this: This engine has self-destructed twice, and I don’t really know why! What skeers me more than any woman, (even Pammy) is that it’ll do it again. Anyone have any clues, based on the evidence presented earlier? Hasta Managua, and lord please give me the strength to not punch it for the next 792 miles. (And by the way, does a 1000 mile break-in sound a little excessive?) Down the road….. Capt. Pete | ||
| Captpete |
A quick comment before I go: Gear pumps... I don't know much about these engines, but I have a bit of experience using hydraulic systems on fishing boats. Gear pumps in general are positive desplacement. Oil, like water, is non-compressable. If the gears go 'round, oil will move. If there is no place for it to go, pressure will build until something gives. 3500 psi is not unusual as operating pressure in some H-P systems. And that is regulated by a relief valve. System pressure will not reach max unless system resistance (ie: load) reaches relief pressure. Capt. Pete | ||
| Ralph |
Captpete, wow. Hope you got a really good deal on that pallet of parts to start with. The S1W came with Thunderstorm heads, which have big twin valves already in place. It is possible to go larger, but only barely and certainly not with BT valves. One of the soft points about these motors is the sumping problem at maintained high speeds. You kinda noticed that. I'm suprised it happend because your S1W has a '98 oil pump which had an increased ratio for oil return. The windage plate will help alot by putting the oil where it can be picked up by the pump for return. By the way, they updated the pump again last year. If you still have a problem you may want to look into the newer pump. Eighty one degrees, huh? You already know what the deal was on that. Good luck holding yourself back doing the break in again. bighairyalph | ||
| Blake |
Capt. Pete: Thanks for confirming the positive displacement properties of our oil pump. José: You piss me off! Wish I was taking off for Myrtle Beach! Have a great time, take lots of pics! When you return, we'll pick it up again. You do have a point concerning the check ball; it relates to static versus dynamic and closed versus open pressure surfaces. Blake | ||
| Tripper |
Blakes Texas bike uses the full quart because as we all know, everything is bigger in Texas. I bet the NJ bike drinks 26 ounces, like the rest of us. Ralph, are you coming to Kansas for the Pridmore STAR school? | ||
| Ralph |
Trip, I wish. My schedule for summer is shot to hell. Big sigh. bighairyralph | ||
| M2phoneman |
Hello All, I've been lurking for some time, gleaning loads of useful info. Due largely to this site (Thanks!), I bought a used 2000 M2 last month and absolutely love it! I've been ridin' and smilin' with the stock configuration, though I do have the Banke shifter and ASB spin-on oil cooler, just haven't had the time to install them. Which brings me to my question. Rode up to the dealer yesterday to schedule my 2500-mile service (May 21), and got stuck in a highway traffic jam on the way back. Air temp was around 80F, but after 35 minutes of slooow progress (and just as I was about to break free) my engine started to miss severely. I got enough revs to get moving, and performance improved dramatically as air got moving over the engine. I've noticed what sounds like valve clatter at high temps/slow speeds before, but put it down to temporary overheating. Never had the missing before. Also, I noticed some oil seepage from the left side gearcase seam and primary chain inspection cover. I don't know if the seepage preceded the missing incident or not. The bike ran fine the rest of the day, but I'm still a little bugged. Oil level is right in the middle of the dipstick marks. Does anyone think I did any permanent damage in the traffic jam? I'm thinking about replacing the plugs. Should I just clean the gearcase and not worry about the seepage? Or leave it for the dealer to see (one month left on warranty)? I was sure I'd recently seen a picture post from someone with this same problem, but now I can't find it. Any input, ideas, or shoves in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Hope to see some of you at the Colorado Ridefest! Thanks, Matt in Denver M2PhoneMan | ||
| Jasonl |
M2PhoneMan - I had the minor valve clatter, etc happen to me recently too. I'm curious to see what the response is to your missing problem. | ||
| Clydeglide |
M2phoneman, Look in knowledge vault under ignition and read the service bulletin. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/3589.html?989719060 Clyde | ||
| Buellistic |
Oil info: Oil temp 220 degrees plus eng gets noisy. In buelling BUELLISTIC and/or Hardley-Harley | ||
| Chuck |
Hey Matt, I had to replace my primary cover gasket a couple of weeks ago. It started one Monday on the way to work (I live 9 miles away) I checked torque on the bolts --- they were within spec --- and rode home. I rode again on Tuesday without much leaking on the way in; but going home, when I was about a mile and a half from the house, I noticed I had no rear brake! The leak had gone south in a hurry and had sent oil everywhere. Keep a careful eye on any leak --- no matter how small. | ||
| Captpete |
Here ‘tis: The S1W Saga In 1998 I was making the transition from Hog rider to sport bike rider, even though at the time I was unaware of what was actually taking place. My best buddy, who lives on the island of Guam in the Western Pacific and owns a small HD dealership there, travels to the states every year for the month of August. Each year during that time he organizes some sort of excursion, departing Boulder Colorado, riding up to Sturgis for two or three days, and then heading west for a couple of weeks of touring through the Rockies. I can only manage to join him for these trips every now or then, depending on how co-operative the fish, shrimp, scallops, etc. have been. This year I was between bikes, having recently sold my 95 Wide Glide. So, I pulled my empty bike trailer out to Boulder, and bought a new 883 Sporster in Denver to use for the trip. My plan was to see what I thought about the way this bike handled in the mountains, and if I liked it, when I got home I would turn it into a honker. That plan was short-lived. 2750 miles in two and a half weeks, my butt still hurts, and I’ll shoot myself before I ever get on another one. Not to mention 85mph wide open on the plains; however, I suppose that was to be expected. But the Sportster’s not really part of the story. It merely gets me to where the story begins. The trip was designed to end up in a little fishing town along the Oregon coast where the 60th birthday party was to be held for a crazy man who was in the process of retiring from his helicopter business in Guam. He had found a younger, more crazy person than himself to sell the business to, and this party would be sort of like the changing of the guard. A rock band had been hired, two wet bars were set up, bartenders were given instructions that they would not be paid if anyone left sober, and a caterer was bar-b-queing a small herd of cattle. The driveway was filled with award-winning street rods, the six-car garage displayed a collection of vintage racecars, and the huge rec room with its checkerboard floor sported a retired Indy car as decoration. These guys were into machinery. And just beyond the pool table was a brand-new White Lightening. Turns out, the young guy (by my standards) who was taking the rains of the helicopter company – I’ll call him Jon – had bought the bike for his #1 employee, his main man, (I’ll call him Corey) who ran the business while Jon was off playing. The deal was that Corey would pay for the bike as/when he was able. Since Jon routinely shipped a container of helicopter parts to Guam, it would be an easy matter to include the bike in the next shipment. The bartenders were diligent, and Jon, crazier than most, felt a need to demonstrate this goofy Harley to the guests. I didn’t see it coming, and by the time I got my camera ready, the damage had been done. All that remained was a hole in the checkerboard tiles and a little lingering smoke.  I was offered the opportunity to ride the thing after the demo, but one of the advantages of living as long as I have is that when it really matters, you know when to say no thanks. My buddy made a call to Guam the next day, sold the 883 to someone who didn’t know any better, and I drove back to Florida, bikeless. A thousand miles later, Corey made a mistake. He found himself in a corner going much faster than he realized and, not knowing what that Buell was capable of, shot off the road into the flora. Dinged the bike up a little, but he limped away from it… with a new attitude. “F*** those sport bikes.” He wanted a chopper. So out came the wrenches, the Buell became a collection of parts, and a stretch frame began its journey across the Pacific. Meanwhile, back at the real chopper business, Jon married his old high school sweetheart from Missouri shortly after the Buell arrived, and she joined him in Guam. Evidently, Jon saw no reason to change his lifestyle just because he had become married, and he continued to get up every morning long before the sun and head to his extensive shop and build stuff. (These guys are good; they build helicopters from scratch using parts scavenged from all over the world, and there have been some pretty Harleys roll out of that shop, built during their spare time.) Another aspect of Jon’s lifestyle remained unchanged as well. Guam is littered with titty bars stocked with exotic oriental women, and although they are not technically bordellos, well… Jon has always been into heavy drinking and partying, and who wants to drink with a bunch of hard-tails? He could never understand why his new bride became upset. He was who he was. And then one evening, about the time the stretch frame was enroute, Jon pulled into the bowling alley parking lot in his pickup to discover his wife’s car parked among the others. He got out of his pickup and headed her way. As he approached her car, he got the second biggest surprise of his life; she was sitting in the front seat, making out with a man. Remember, I told you he’s a little crazy. He leapt up onto the hood of her car in a single bound, and started jumping up and down on it. And then came the biggest surprise of his life; the man in the front seat was Corey. Of course he discovered this as Corey executed his egress, and quickly ran to his own truck where he managed to get inside and safely lock the front door. But as fate would have it, Corey had left his window down just enough for Jon to reach both hands inside. Corey managed to get the engine started and shift into gear before Jon’s hands found his neck. And the show began. The truck pulled out of the lot into traffic – seven lanes worth, three each way and a center lane. Guam is notorious for its heavy traffic, and off they went, right in the middle of all those cars, Corey choking and turning blue, and Jon’s toes dragging on the pavement. Jon finally lost his grip, and miraculously, suffered only the expected road rash. He ran through the traffic and back to the bowling alley, and screaming through locked doors and windows, informed his wife that he was heading for the shop to get his gun, and that Corey was a dead man. He got into his truck and left, blue smoke boiling out from beneath the rear tires. The next report comes from the head mechanic – I’ll call him Lester – who lives with his recently purchased Phillipino wife in a converted 40 ft. container, which is located inside the fenced-in compound at the chopper shop. Jon’s wife has summoned the police, and they arrive at the shop, looking for Jon. But they know he’s come for his gun, and they’re non too anxious to get involved in a gunfight, so they roust Lester from his container. They ask if he will go into the shop and fetch his boss for a little talk. Lester informs them that Jon is truly a crazy man, and they are too, if they think he’s going into that shop. Lester should know. He’s just as bad as Jon. There are stories of Lester being held by two cops, his face literally dripping with mace, and telling them if they’ll just turn loose of him for one second, he’ll whip the whole f***ing bunch. (Not bad for a 55 year old man who weighs 105 pounds dripping wet – water or mace.) Lester retreats to his container and locks the door. The next report is from my good buddy. I’ll call him Jim, because that’s his name. It’s the middle of the night and he’s awakened by an incessant knocking on his door. He turns on the porch light, opens the door, and there stands Jon, pistol in hand. “You gotta help me, man. I’m a fugitive. I need someplace to hide.” Jon spent the night, and the next morning revised his plan. He sent word that he would relent, and give Corey 24 hours to leave the island before he killed him. The debate continues to this day as to whether or not he really would have done it, but Corey decided to take no chances. He was on the next plane to the states. It was shortly after that when I got the call from Jim about the Buell. Seems every time Jon looked at that pallet of parts, he wanted to go get his gun. It was eating him alive, and I bought the whole mess for 4 grand. So there ya are… the rest of the story. Capt. Pete | ||
| Chuck |
Hey Arvel, I'd better keep my stock primary cover for a little while longer. I'm helping a friend wire in an oven for his new powder coating system; and I might get a "wild hair" to try some new colors on the M2. | ||
| Ccryder |
M2phoneman: Have the Dealer fix your primary cover leak. Accept no B/S excuses about "They all do that" or "It's only a weep and that's not covered under warranty" or "Just wash your bike more often and you won't notice that anymore". The clattering was probably from a lifter loosing it's oil. I never had it happen but a few BWB Buelligans have had it happen (Right Smadd, Carlos?). I would mention to the Dealer and have him do your 2500 mile service and change all the fluids. Neil S. | ||
| Chuck |
Hey Pete, Are you related to Paul Harvey? | ||
| Captpete |
Hey Chuck... I don't think so. But perhaps to "Wrong Way Corrigan." To the best of my knowledge, that's an accurate recount. There are some real characters on that island. It's a modern version of the old Wild West out there. And there are more MC stories from where that one came. If there's any interest in hearing them, I'll look for a more appropriate place to post them, although they all do center around the participants being over-lubricated. Down the road... 650 miles to go. Capt. Pete | ||
| Coney |
M2phoneman i got stuck in endless nyc traffic last summer on a hot evening and baked the cylinders. it became apparent when the dealer investigated heavy oil consumption under warranty. the dealer covered it all, southern tier harley buell in binghamton ny. i've got nothing but praise for these people. they suggested running synthetic after break in, also recommended a jagg oil cooler. the thing that now leaves me paranoid is how long can the thing sit in traffic before overheating? does anyone know of an oil temp gauge that can fit on a buell? i hate guessing about how hot is hot | ||
| Jasonl |
Good God Pete...thats one hell of a story. thanks. | ||
| Ralph |
Hell of a story Cap Pete. Glad I wasn't there. bighairyralph | ||
| S2no1 |
Chuck, No problem. Hope the powder coat works out. CaptPete, I knew there was a reason I am happily married. Thanks for the reinforcement that clean living may not be as fun, but it's less likely to get you dead or in jail. Arvel | ||
| Bomber |
Coney . . .I mounted a temp guage on my M2 . . . . had to make a mount for the sending unit, attaching it to the dipstick, as I didn't want to have to drain and dismount the oil bag . . . . if you're looking for a short-term diagnostic tool, get a thermometer from either a high end cooking store (meaaat thermometer), or a photo supply store (looks very similar, bu the snappers use them to monitor the temp of their darkroom chemicals) my M2 is runnin about 220/230 in slow traffic (ambient approx 80 F), a bit higher in stop and go . .. . I've heard folks say that 250 is "normal" in a sporty . . . .made my toes curl . . .. and not in a good way | ||
| Robr |
Bomber, 250F is not normal in a Sporty. Myself and three freinds have owned a number of Evo Sportys for quite some years. Two 4speeds, a '89 and a '90 that have been owned by me and my buddy since 1990 and two newer 5speeds, a '92 and a '97 that my two other freinds have owned and ridden since 1996 and 1998 respectively. None of these bikes has ever run hotter than 220F and that was in 95F traffic jams where lane splitting would cool the bikes back down to their normal operating temperatures of between 180F-210F. The hottest bike is the '97, it usually runs at 210F, but that is with straight pipes and no oil cooler. Granted the 180F is a bike with an oil cooler on a 70F day cruising with no traffic. I would say around 200F is normal on these bikes. RobR. | ||
| Aikigecko |
Capt Pete How long ago did that happen in Guam ?that sounds very familiar. I lived there up until 2 years ago. I finally found Mobil 1 synthetic 15w50 on the island (this is actually rather strange) not a single autopart store in Honolulu (that I have found) stocks it (I found it at the Air Force BX of all places) I had even talked to a Napa delivery guy who attested that they didn't carry it. Anyway I bought two quarts and will be changing my oil in the next day or so (wish my intake was finished being welded as well). Changing oil on a motorcycle seems like a good Father/Son thing to do. Peace Tony | ||
| Captpete |
Tony, Probably just about the time you were leaving - right at two years ago. You probably heard something; it's a small island, as you know. Capt. Pete |
