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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » Archive through February 28, 2007 » LEAN SURGE » Archive through April 14, 2006

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Author Message   Davaz Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 10:02 pm:        I just finished the 500 mile break-in on my XB12Ss. I'm starting to become concerned about low speed running. The thing lean surges horribly under 3,000 rpm. I bought the software and reset my TPS. No significant change. I hate to take it back to the dealer, "Buells are just a side business for us" and "talk to Bob over there, he came from imports". I've got a race kit on order with DaveS but understand it won't be available for up to a month. Is this lean surge normal for theses bikes? Will the race kit fix the problem? Thanks in advance for any and all guidance.   Blake Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 12:56 am:        No, not normal at all. My diatribe on TPS resetting might or might not be helpful to you. Is it possible that you have not properly reset your TPS? Of particular importance is to back off the idle screw entirely and to ensure that when the throttle is snapped closed that you see repeated consistent voltage values prior to flashing the ECM. What software are you using?   Davaz Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 03:39 am:        Thanks for the diatribe Blake. I'm using VDSTS and am fairly confident I did the reset correctly. Followed Al's instruction to the letter. Tested the reset at approx 3,000 and it recognized the reset. Then backed out the idle adjustment screw and snapped the throttle closed several times. Felt the slight binding of the throttle plate. I'll sure give it another try this weekend. I'm considering replacing the plugs as a shot in the dark, but don't see a big air cooled four stroke fouling its plugs unless something else is wrong. I guess I should call the dealer for a service appointment. Sure runs great once it tops 3,000 rpm though. Any other things to check that you can think of? Thanks   Sparky Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 10:31 am:        Fuel metering under 3k rpm is mostly controlled ed by the O2 sensor. You might check to see if its wiring is intact and all connections are tight. Maybe change it out for a new one?   Blake Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 02:47 pm:        You are welcome David. Diatribe is my specialité. An intake manifold air leak is something that would be worth ruling out. Did the surging develop/worsen gradually over time or was it there right from the start, or did it become noticeable all at once and remain fairly unchanged since then? Darryl (Sparky), If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the EFI go open loop wrt O2 sensor somewhere not too far below 3,000 rpm? If so, wouldn't that point to the IAT (intake air temp) sensor, TPS, AFV, or something else?   Davaz Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 08:15 pm:        The bike ran well when I picked it up. It started to hint at surging at about 400 miles. Now at 510 miles it is irritating. I've got an appointment with the dealer next Tues. When I described the symptoms to the service writer he said "well that is a high rpm bike". He did then check with his boss who said it sounded like a TPS reset issue. We'll see. Before Tues I'll reset the TPS again, check the CO2 sensor wiring for abrasions etc. and give it real close overall inspection. I consider dealer's maintenance departments an absolute last resort, but I am under warranty. Thanks all for the suggestions. If it turns out to be interesting I'll be sure to post.   Blake Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 08:55 pm:        Could be an intake manifold air leak then, or possibly a dirty injector. Clarification: It's not "CO2" only "O2" sensor. The concentration of unburned oxygen is proportional to how rich or lean the engine is running. The service writer's contention that "it's a high rpm bike" is not an acceptable answer to your issue. Please inform the owner of the dealership of the service writer's ignorant response. What dealership is this? Folks need to know when a service writer is incompetent or irresponsible or doesn't give a darn.   Smokinjoe Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 06:22 am:        mine is doing the same thing...the tps has gone bad...have one on order...kevin at kdfabrication pointed it out to me. said that it was somewhat of common problem...the h.d. dealer here said so too.   Jlnance Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 09:45 am:        Smokingjoe - How did you know the TPS had gone bad?   Blake Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 03:54 pm:        Hey officer Joe in Monroe! Thanks for that report. I don't think we've seen many reports of bad TP sensors here. I'm kinda surprised to hear that TPS failure is somewhat of a common problem. Do you know if the failure was in the sensor itself or in its pigtail and/or connector? Don't mean to tag-team you, but this is the kind of vital info we really like to learn about here. Thanks for anything you can contribute to our big hairy knowledge. And since you are practically a neighbor, please do give us a shout if you are ever out Kilgore way. Yeah, in TX a mere 170 miles is still considered "neighbor" territory.   Lorazepam Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 04:11 pm:        I would like to challenge anyone here to ride my Uly smoothly under 20mph. It was in for the 1k service, had the TPS reset. The mechanic is into Buells, and a good guy, so I trust it was done right. When I asked him about the jerking (yes, worse than surging) He said he had to adjust the primary chain, and it should be better. I need to find out what is going on, a 1200cc motorcycle should be able to pull away from a stop and not act as though the fuel has been shut off and back on. It is impossible to ride in slow traffic, and school zones (20mph) are an exercise in whiplash induction. I could ride just off idle on a 450cc twin, why cant I do it on this bike? I dont want to hear "buy the race kit" that is bullcrap. I just want it to run right. I went through surging issues with a couple BMW's I owned, and they could be tuned well enough to eliminate the surging, but I dont even know where to start on this bike.   Lorazepam Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 06:25 pm:        Sorry for the rant guys, It is frustrating to have the bike buck like a fuel starvation problem down low. It is great above 3k rpms. I love it when I can run the bike out on the back roads. I have to make a couple turns on loose gravel to get to the paved stuff, and I dont want to have to be up to 3k rpm to do it.   Blake Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 10:05 pm:        Gale, Something is horribly wrong with your bike and if your technician let it out the door running as you describe, then he is not doing you any good service and I would find another one immediately. I've ridden a Uly and it performed flawlessly at extremely low rpm, well below what I would ever run my Cyclone at.   Blake Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 10:07 pm:        As to the cause, if it idles well, then we probably need to know a better description of the jerking behavior, meaning is it ignition cutout, or jerky drivetrain/clutch engagement, or does it backfire and pop like if it were an intake/fuel issue?   Davaz Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:28 pm:        Well, I guess I'm not alone here. Lorazepam, you sound like you're riding my bike! Got it into the dealer yesterday. He reset the TPS and said "it's running like a top". I take it home, no change, still surges and even hickups every once in a while. Well my plan now is to drop it off at 1,000 miles and ask that they take the time to really fix it. I suspect they won't be up to the challenge so I'm counting on the race kit to make me happy. Poor fuel delivery was one of the main reasons I traded off my Ducati for the Buell. Now the Buell seems to have the same problem.   Lorazepam Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:47 pm:        I will get it back to the shop and see if I can get a loaner to ride home on. They are very pro Buell, and have treated me very well from the start. I have to ask, how critical is it to let the bike warm up before riding off? I have 1800 miles since mid February in Northeast Ohio, so I have ridden in 40's and less quite a bit. It happens much worse in colder temperatures when I start out, and improves somewhat after it warms up, but still not to the point I would want to do a water crossing on a back road. Just need to branch out from the Uly thread   Lorazepam Posted on Wednesday, April 12, 2006 - 11:54 pm:        Blake, It does it really bad when cold. It does better once the bike has warmed up, say ten minutes or so. It is like the bike just loses fuel, then gets a shot, like the last half second worth all at once, and it has no pattern. It doesnt do it on the same cylinder every time. It is to the point I hit the tank bag from the lag, then get pulled back when it hits. My guess is it is very over lean until it gets really warm. Like the enricher, or whatever isnt working properly. Time for a manual and a study session.   Lorazepam Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:00 am:        As far as clutch engagement, I can ride the bike down low if I use the crap out of the clutch, but I am thinking I should be able to go 10mph without riding the clutch. I will let the service techs have it overnight so they can ride it after sitting, and see if they can recreate the problem.   John88030 Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 03:10 am:        Lorazapam, mine is doing the exact same thing, good and accurate description by the way. I have even discussed with Daves of doing a map for the ECM with the bike all stock. I am just a little hesitant to spend $400.00 on a brand new bike to get it to run right. I did order the VDSTS package from Daves however I haven't used it yet. I am gonna try it this weekend. John   Jlnance Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 08:54 am:        OK - I'll pipe up with a me too. Here are my experiences to date. I noticed that the bike was not smooth when running at a constant speed, particularly when going slow. It was still noticable at 3k rpms though. If you were accelerating it was fine. A passenger also seems to help, presumably because of the extra load they put on the engine. I assumed this problem would go away with a TPS reset. I got the bike back from the 1k service, and the symptoms were unchanged. At this point I began to pay more attention to the problem. I noticed that it is definitly worse when the bike is cold. However it does not go away when the bike warms up, it only lessens. Trying to ride around at 20 mph is difficult. I would agree with the jerking description above. I had a rear tire replaced at 3k miles, and I asked them to look at the Fuel Injection system, described the problems I was having, and told them how to reproduce it. They suggested that the TPS might need to be reset. I picked up the bike and they had reset the TPS. The bike did do much better after that, particularly in situations where you were riding with very little throttle. It was not compleatly cured, but the difference was substantial. I think the problem may have gotten worse since then. It's a bit hard to tell if its that or if I have gotten more sensitive to it. One of my problems is that I am relivitly new to bikes. This is my first FI machine, and I don't know what is "normal" and what isn't. Had I not seen this thread, I would have just assumed that Ulys "did that," and chalked it up as a quirk. I think it would be easy to get to the bottom of this if we had someone with a working Uly and access to spare FI parts who wanted to help. I know thats a lot to ask, but if someone feels like volunteering ...   Eor Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:16 pm:        My "stumbling" at lower RPM's was helped some by a static timing adjustment, but it still lurches and occasionally "pops," particularly when cold. I've really enjoyed my Uly, but have been disappointed in the way the engine runs at slower speeds. It's only happy when it is accelerating below 3K , but you have to ride in traffic every now and then....   Bomber Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 12:25 pm:        without trying to start a flame war, I was under the impression that Fuel Injection was supposed to help mitigate the problems that carbs have on cold-blooded engines . . . or am I mistaken?   Blake Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 01:03 pm:        I would say that far more motorcycles with EFI have had fuel charge related operational issues than carbureted ones. The list comprises the entire spectrum of street bike manufacturers. Of course even the tube framers with carburetors benefited from a low speed rejetting, though that was easily addressed via the manual choke somewhat as related to the issue being described here. One thing I think is very important is to clarify if the bike is bone stock form or if there have been even minor modifications to the intake and/or exhaust tracts. It's probably not very fair to nit pick a bike for quirky operation if it's related system(s) isn't/(aren't) in stock form. Sounds to me like a slight remapping may be in order, or perhaps the IAT sensor could bear some scrutiny (operation, placement, behavior in colder conditions)? I dunno, just guessing out loud.   Jlnance Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 01:29 pm:        Blake - Mine is stock.   Stevenknapp Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 01:47 pm:        I've seen some comment that the "AFV" needs to be reset as well. My understanding is this is a longer term "trim" for the A/F. Perhaps the bike has learned a bad setting, and even with the TPS set right it's going to take eons to unlearn this...resetting might do the trick?   Lorazepam Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 04:55 pm:        Mine is bone stock. I had hoped to keep it that way. I love the bike above 3k rpm, but it sucks in traffic, or low speed conditions. I am taking it to the dealer as soon as I get off here. They are giving me a loaner bike, and want to resolve the problem. I have nothing bad to say about my dealer, they have been great since day one. I hope we can get to the bottom of the problem, and get it right.   John88030 Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 08:06 pm:        Blake mine is bone stock, 780 Miles. To me it feels like the fuel is either on or off not a linear response at low speeds. Our school zones are 15-mph and a real pain in the rear. My road king, se road glide and ultra were all fuel injected and did not do this, they were all very smooth. John   Davaz Posted on Thursday, April 13, 2006 - 09:26 pm:        Bone stock also. 710 miles.   Blake Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:59 am:        Thanks for adding to the database guys.   John88030 Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 12:42 pm:        Update, I just did my first service. TPS Reset AFV Check HD+ in trans Syn3 in engine adj. primary Bike runs the same, e.g. same problem. I will talk to the Dealer on Monday I have an appointment to install the luggage then. I will let you know what he says. John