| Author |
Message |
    
Bartman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 04:01 pm: | 
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Hello everyone,
My 00 thunderbolt has been starting hard in the am if its 50 or less. i leave for work early and she just hates it... i have a big open Megs exahast,forcewinder,and a power commander. seems to start good when it's warm but early am sux... any thoughts??? it's like my fuelie want a choke... thax everyone!!! |
Dave
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 08:47 pm: |
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Dang... I have yet to hear anything positive about a FI Buell w/Power Commander. Perhaps just too lean?
DAve |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 08:56 pm: |
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Bartman:
The 20W50 oil is very thick at 50 degrees
even though it is suppose to act like 20W ...
You should replace your battery every two years as cold weather starting is very hard on a motorcycle battery ...
You should keep your battery on trickle
charger when not riding ... |
Sparky
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 03:07 pm: |
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Bman, you might want to squirt some "Easy Start-Up" type spray from a Pep Boys, Kragen, etc. into the air cleaner.
Ether greatly enhances the ability of the engine to start on the first crank or two. Trust me. |
Bartman
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 04:39 pm: |
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i'm changeing to synthitic oil this season,maybe that will help??? have new batt, is ether a bit hard on the motor??
no luck with power commanders??? |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 12:33 pm: |
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Bart, just a thought. I regularly fire up my M2 throughout the winter to warm up and ride if not snowy and too cold right down to 10 degrees or so. I have very good luck with a small electric space heater for an hour before firing and it starts like summer and 70. No choke needed on this carburated engine. I think after a while the intake gaskets shrink and we loose some sealing during extended cold. This heating expands the seals and creates more vacumn for starting as well as heating the oil somewhat. I direct the heater toward the engine. If the bike normally runs good the rest of the time this just might work. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 11:28 am: |
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Can you describe precisely what you mean by "starting hard"? |
Bartman
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 06:25 pm: |
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I have plenty of cranking power, but it just won't start, it trys but it farts and sends
a puff of smoke from the forcewinder. it just acts like it needs a choke. but it's injected... when it's 50 or better or already up to temp its fine...
just starts hard when cold... i kind of have to give it a little throttle when i am cranking to get her going.
little embrassing when all your carb buddies just fire right up... |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 07:11 pm: |
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Bartman:
Are you sure you no not have a mopar engine in your BUELL ???
Know that stuff in a can they use to start
mopar engines, WELL improvise a way get some of this stuff into your throttle body
and it will start !!! |
Bob_thompson
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 09:19 pm: |
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Bart, on a secondary thought to my other post; most fuel injected cars ask you NOT to give the throttle any opening and on my cars I always turn on the ignition and wait a few seconds for the computer to read the sensors, i.e. ambient temp. etc., and then crank. Seems to work better than cranking immediately. Any other F.I. folks care to chime in on my ideas. Bob |
Niceharleystuff
| | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:20 am: |
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2002 S3T here... fuel injected with full Buell race kit. Mine has a little difficulty starting on it's own under 50 degrees as well. I just give it a tiny bit of throttle at startup and slowly ease off until it can run on it's own at idle. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
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In addition to what Bob offered, if the idle is within recommended range, then maybe a TPS rezero/recalibration may be in order? Maybe check the the intake air temp sensor, ensure it is clean and well-positioned.
Once you manage to get the bike started in cold temperatures, how does it idle? |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:06 am: |
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Dave has a point for sure too. The Power Commander is a likely contributor to the issue. Seems to me that it could be affecting the AFV to where the bike is idling on the lean side, which in a cold start scenario would make starting very difficult. Dunno for sure, but that seem would seem to be a plausible scenario. If you can adjust idle/starting mixture via the Power Commander, that may be the answer; add some fuel at idle. |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
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This is why "i" am not interested in FUEL
INJECTION !!!
WHEN "i" can get a SYSTEM that be MAPed across the board then the system is ready for me !!! |
Dave
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 08:36 pm: |
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Anti-DDFI? I have aboot 40 k on mine running the Buell Race system. From sea level to AZ and NM mountains...It works.
DAve |
Sparky
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 01:42 am: |
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DAve, how does yours start in 50 & below weather?
If it's OK and you don't run a PC, then maybe Blake's theory about the PC leaning out during cold start is true. So to validate the theory, Bartman could either remove the PC and see if his bike starts OK or DAve could install a PC (Bartman's?) and see if his bike no longer starts OK.
I don't know. I've got a simple mind that likes simple answers. 
From my experience though, I'm with DAve; my bike, with no PC, starts OK below 50.
Sparky |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 05:56 pm: |
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LaFayette, with the new direct link product, your wish is granted. |
Dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 10:57 pm: |
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Hey Sparky I think we met at Torque Fest in '03?
My '99 has seen more garage time of late since I got the Ulysses. I'd call most (if not all Buells) a bit cold blooded. I think my S3 starts fine under 50 degrees. I do remember my S3 prior to the Race ECM and I would not say it started fine under 50 with the OEM ECM.
If Bartman is running a stock ECM, LEAN is the word with that exhaust. Perhaps the Power Commander attempts to richen it up.
I agree with the swapping or ditching suspected parts to verify the culprit.
DAve
(Message edited by dave on March 21, 2006) |
Bandirola
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 01:07 am: |
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Dave...I think you are on to something. With the stock ECM my bike started hard when cold. With the race ECM it starts much easier and doesn't backfire through the intake.
Dave |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 09:02 am: |
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Take the negative terminal off the battery, then take the positive terminal
off the battery ... Strick terminals together as you would stracking a match ...
Put on positive terminal, then the negative terminal ... Start engine and "BRAIN BOX" will learn cold weather starting !!!
(Message edited by buellistic on March 22, 2006) |
Sparky
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:19 am: |
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Buellistic, what's the rationale behind this theory, a new kind of ECM reset, without tools?
DAve, I'm sure we met at Torque-Fest. Yeah, that's a breath-takingly beautiful run I'd like to re-do some day, karma permitting.
Sparky |
Trish
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:35 am: |
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Hey Bartman:
You just described precisely what my '00 S3 does on a cold start, right down to the puff of smoke coming out the Forcewinder. I hate it when that happens! I do not have any upgrades other than the Forcewinder and Vances & Hines exhaust.
BTW--When it does start, it idles so slow that I have to sit there and give it gas for about 15-20 sec. to keep it going or it'll die. 
(Message edited by trish on March 23, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
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Forcewinder and V&H exhaust are likely causing lean condition during startup and idle. |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:46 pm: |
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Blake:
Who makes this "BRAIN BOX" that "i" have been wishing for ???
REMEMBER THIS: anytime you change anything
on the fuel injection models you need to give it the "BUELListic" re-boot !!!
(Message edited by buellistic on March 23, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 02:12 pm: |
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Techno-Research is their name I believe. American Sport Bike and Appleton HD/Buell are getting into that line of support. Each are also developing mappings for various aftermarket mufflers and opened intakes. Not sure they will support the tube framers or not. Hopefully they will.
You might need to buy the whole system yourself though. |
Dave
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 07:44 pm: |
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trish: Even my (now Bartimus') carb'd S1W would give that sympton with a forcewinder and V&H on cold days.
DAve
(Message edited by dave on March 23, 2006) |
Oz666
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 07:46 pm: |
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This is very similar to a known problem with F.I.ed and ECMed CARS and TRUCKS. Although it usually appears in the 0-20°F. range. The factory/dealership cure? Turn on the key and count 1-1000, 2-1000, to 10-1000. I kid you not. The best explanation I have heard was the cold caused 1. lower system voltage - including to the pump which pressurizes the fuel rail(s) and 2. The lower temps increase the viscosity of the GASOLINE. The combination of these leaves the pressure at the injectors still outside the operating range, and therefore LEAN just when the engine needs full rich. Waiting an extra 10-15 sec. in a 5 below truck sucks, but it will start and not stall. I don't know if this will help on a F.I. Buell, but hey, turn on the key, check your tyres, turn signals, brake lights, put on helmet, gloves etc. anything to delay 30-40 sec. THEN try to start the bike - might help.
My carbed S3 starts well down to about 32, by then it's cranking noticeably slower and requires more turns to start. I've never tried it below 20° without a battery booster, REAL chore to start below 10°.
Hope this helps.
 Oz |
Trish
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
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I have waited for a few seconds before I actually turn it over, but probably not 20+ seconds. I'll give it a shot. Blake--what can I do to remedy the lean condition? Is that what the "Buellistic reboot" is for? I want to go out & try it all tonight but it appears to be snowing... |
Dave
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 04:12 pm: |
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Do you have the Buell Race ECM Trish? That would be my recommendation. (It was the 1st mod I did to my '99 S3)
DAve |
Trish
| | Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 06:21 pm: |
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No Race ECM. Went out to start it up today at about 45 degrees. I turned the key and waited a full 30sec. before starting. It wouldn't run on it's own--needed to stay on the gas @ a high idle for a minute or it would quit. Maybe I'm expecting too much? Seems weird to have to give a FI bike gas to get it started. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 08:30 pm: |
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It is wierd; you shouldn't have to do that. Check for intake manifold seal air leak? |
Josh_
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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My 99 S3 used to be hard-starting when cold also. Similar symptoms.
That's the main thing I used the ThrottleMeister for - warming it up on winter days. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 01:11 am: |
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Just a SWAG, I'm wondering if cold temperatures would cause the throttle butterfly to close more as if the throttle stop screw were shrinking slightly because of metal expansion/contraction due to heat/cold? |
Davefla
| | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 07:58 am: |
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I have the same issues with a bone stock 2004 XB12R @ 4,300 miles. Yesterday was the first time this year that it's started and run decently.
Of course, it was 63 degrees F here in SW Michigan at the time... 
In January I swapped the 10R12A plugs for Denso Iridium models & still had fouling (might've been a bad plug or installer error.) Things were slowed down by my hamfistedness with the rear plug wire- I pulled the coil end of the wire deep into the boot, then tore the outer insulation while trying to push it back in. Be careful, folks! I've ordered a set of Magnacor 8mm wires to try in place of the 7mm stockers.
Anyway, I got my best results yesterday by reinstalling the 10R12A plugs after a cleaning! I've tried the space heater trick as well, and the results are worth it. Even with the ignition issues, the bike would start rather than just crank.
I bought a Techno-Research VSDTS from Al at American Sport Bike last week, and have done my first TPS reset and idle setting. But now all y'all have me thinking about a Micron, an open airbox and a remapped race ecm...
And so the fun begins! 
(Message edited by davefla on April 07, 2006) |
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S3 starting hard below 50 degrees