| Author | Message | ||
     Interex2050 |
Well finally had a chance to fill up with 100 grade octane fuel, and some interesting results... -First off it was very strange pulling up to a pump with 100 all over it (the mythical high octane does exist), and the experience was nothing like a normal stop at a gas station. Even though it was a self serve thing, the tech (who was also behind the register at the moment), came out and talked to me about the fuel and gave me a handy little chart for mixing fuels to get whatever octane level one would want. Strangely enough the station also happened to be a 76, notorious for making my bike ping. The down side was that it ended up costing $20 and the tank could still handle some more, definitely something I do not want to do again any time soon. -The higher grade fuel did not seem to reduce my power much (well barely enough to notice). The great part though, is that I could not get the bike to ping. I actually tried to make it ping, and nothing (atop of that it was pretty warm today and the streets where traffic infested). Another thing that I noticed was that there is no more hesitation when bliping the throttle from idle, and once moving the engine seemed to pull much smoother in the lower rpm ranges (2000-3000). Now I must move on to the real mission and figure out what is wrong with my machine... -It does not appear to be timing as it was ping-free with the higher octane but probably something I would want to check out anyway. -Possibly adding a right hand side air scoop, to get more "cool" air to the rear cylinder. -I am going to switch to synthetic oil (Mobile 1 V-twin) as soon as my oil filters arrive (I bought the k&n units). -Also play around with different spark plugs. Switch over to Denso iridiums, and try sticking a colder one in the rear cylinder. Any more ideas that would aid in my "epic quest" to kill the ping would be more then welcome. Also... (I know this is not supposed to go here, but I can't help myself) Would anyone by any chance be interested in a Miller Thunderbolt 225 arc/stick welder (runs off a 230V single phase, 25v AC 30-225 amp working current) to trade for a tig welder. Its much too heavy duty of a unit, and I mostly need to do tiny stuff with aluminum. As well as I dont have a 230v line running to my work area, and it seems like a pain to have to put on in. (Message edited by interex2050 on February 05, 2006) | ||
| Bigj |
Which station did you use? Those Buells really like that 76 100 mixed about half and half with 91. They almost seem to purr. Bad part is the cost.  | ||
| Jedwele |
"It does not appear to be timing as it was ping-free with the higher octane but probably something I would want to check out anyway." That is not true, pinging from too much timing can and would be eliminated from higher octane gas also. | ||
| Sparky |
Pinging at light throttle or with a slightly loaded engine should not be a problem. But loud pinging under medium to WOT should be avoided in a normal, sorted out engine. What type of pinging are we talking about? | ||
| Diablobrian |
I agree with Jedwele. Octane rating is simply a measure of resistance to detonation. as written here... "The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening." http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm granted that is the abridged and simplified explanation of octane. here is the real deal... http://www.csgnetwork.com/octaneratecalc.html Here is a better note on octane... "Most engines that do ping or knock on light acceleration do not need premium fuel; these engines need proper servicing such as timing adjustments, repairing vacuum leaks, or servicing emissions control valves. To operate a properly tuned engine designed for 87 octane with 89 or 91 octane fuel will only increase the cost of operation. No additional power, fuel economy, or durability will result from the higher octaned fuel. " http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/bgbb/7/ecep/trans/b/b.htm I would still have static timing checked. It is not normal for the XBs to require 100 octane gas to keep from pinging. Pinging is definitely to be avoided if you want your motor to last long. Hope this helps, then again you may already know all of this.  | ||
| Interex2050 |
The pinging that normally occurs is when the engine is fully warmed up, and in the 2000-3000 rpm range (well after sitting in traffic or I am carrying a passenger that range expands to 3500). It only shows its ugly face when I give it a decent amount of throttle in that rpm range(which does not involve me just smashing on the throttle but a faster increase of throttle, with respect to the engine rpm [a habit I picked up from riding 2 strokers, not sure if that is a good thing]). As for the timing (I will get it checked out regardless, when I get my tires mounted) but... -what does seem to be strange is that if my timing was really off then wouldn't the level of octane really not matter as the spark would occur prematurely and cause pinging regardless (not to mention effect the other rpm ranges as well)...? -It almost seems that a condition occurs when accelerating rapidly, that causes too much heat and pressure to build up and the lower octane just photo-detonates, but the higher grade can withstand that extra stress...? please correct me if I am wrong, as I am just speculating and trying to picture what is occurring. Always happy to learn more. thanks a bunch | ||
| Ryker77 |
i'm running xb stage 3 heads with 12.5:1 pistons. static pressure is 210psi!!! My bike doesn't ping.. But I do run 93 octane with octane booster to be safe. So thats about 95 octane. Check the timing --- with a real timing light. Also have the static cranking pressure tested. | ||
| Buell_892 |
what did the heads/pistons cost you? make a nice difference? | ||
| Sparky |
"The pinging that normally occurs is ... in the 2000-3000 rpm range" One thing to consider is that in this rpm range, the ECM is in closed loop with mixture monitored/controlled by the oxygen sensor which could be marginal, maybe needing replacement. But if it were bad, your gas mileage would probably be affected noticeably. How's your mileage? Another thing about this EFI system is that the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) has to be absolutely dead-nuts calibrated properly, otherwise the whole A/F mixture calibration does not track with the throttle opening for best performance. Also the TPS signals the ECM when to squirt extra fuel for acceleration and how much depending on the rate of rapid throttle opening. Sounds like it needs the EFI & timing checked out. Have Alan Barsi at Bartels' check it out. He's the Buell expert there (and demo fleet head mechanic); he always does my main service jobs. Sparky | ||
| Sparky |
Oh yeah, where's the 76 station with 100 octane? Osborne's in Torrance closed down a couple years ago and the 76 in Yorba Linda no longers offer it, I think. TIA, Sparky | ||
| Interex2050 |
Sparky, The station that I used was in Brentwood (the one on San Vicente [spelling?] toward the edge of Brentwood Village across from the school) Bigj was kind enough to give me this list... www.osbornauto.com/racing/100locations.htm My mileage is pretty good but strange... city - mid 30's highway - high 30's low 40's canyons - high as 50 with a low of about 45 I still can't quite understand why the canyon riding is the most efficient, as I am usually near the redline. Well it's good to hear that there is someone at Bartel's that is a Buell guy, I was almost considering taking my bike to the Glendale shop as they have a better reputation with Buells. I will definitely as for Alan when I go there next time. As for the Fuel injection and management system, that is something I have tons of stuff to learn about (my first fuel injected machine). Thanks for the info | ||
| Fullpower |
second point will be addressed first: If you plan to TIG weld you will NEED 240 volt mains. don't even pretend that you will find a suitable machine to weld aluminum using 115 volt power. Now back to your original topic, and like I told you a week ago: FIX the problem, your bike running 10 to one compression should not require octane boost, race gas, or exotic fuels of 100 octane. Use of these fuels, while not harmful, are masking the symptom of a problem that should be properly fixed. you likely have leaking intake seals, and/or excessive timing advance. Both of these problems should be checked for and repaired if necessary. to re-iterate, at 10 to one compression, and with cranking pressure of 160 psi, the stock XB has no need of high octane or exotic fuels. If YOURS wont run nicely on the recommended fuel grade, then YOURS has a problem. I strongly suggest that you FIX the problem. good luck. dean | ||
| Interex2050 |
Fullpower, Sorry that I agitated you. I do want to fix the problem, but when a problem arises I would like to get a better understanding of the nature of the problem. I simply want to know as much as possible, I do not just want to take it to the dealer and say fix it (just no fun in that, not to mention I would learn nothing). Problems should be taken advantage of. The higher octane fuel was just an experiment/diagnostic tool, nothing more. Could you please go more in depth about your suspicion that there is an intake leak. From what I know of a leaky intake would lead to erratic idling and leaning of the engine throughout the entire rpm range. I just do not quite understand how it would effect just that certain range, and that the higher octane "resolves" it. Is it because that is when the EFI runs the engine the leanest and atop of that the leak makes it even leaner thus causing the lower octane fuel to photo-detonate (while the higher octane can withstand it)...? As for the welder, what would you suggest as a power supply for welding small aluminum parts? I have realized that yes, a 110v input tig welder does not exist that will do what I need it to (we all make mistakes, but one must learn from them). Not to mention that I was being hopeful that maybe someone knew of something that I overlooked in my search. | ||
| Typeone |
I've gone through all that stuff and my 12 still pings in the summer. Well, everything but replace the O2 sensor but I get consistent mileage of around 46-48mpg and I've had no reason to think its shot. A new one will be installed for this season anyway to remove it from the equation. My bike was gone over by a few shops, one of them with a Buell expert who was on the phone with Buell. Looked for everything like timing issues, leaks, etc. I tried about 3 or 4 different plugs, octane boosters, single-pump stations, you name it. PING in the summer. and no, I do not lug my bike. The tech testing it last ran it on a cool morning and couldn't reproduce the ping, on my 2hr ride back... temps rose... ping was back  Its not constant, only occurs in certain RPM ranges when I get on the gas, not from super-low revs either. The more stop and go traffic i'm in or the bigger the hill... PING like crazy. I messed with the TFI all summer to try and richen the mixture up, didn't help much. when i got on the dyno she was really fat so i tuned back down towards the end of the season. I will be doing more testing this summer but like I said before, as soon as the temps dropped for fall... no ping. My testing will include a new O2, trying the drilled box again for the hell of it (ran stock for most of last season cause I didn't like the drilled box) and most likely more dyno time and plug checks to see where she's at. I was crazy fed up last season. Even cooler late-summer days before fall hit, going up a hill then juicing it would produce ping. Annoying to say the least. | ||
| Fullpower |
Interex, my apologies for the agitated tone, i will try to behave myself in future. In regard to the TIG process: It takes a surprising amount of heat to weld even small sections of aluminum, as the material rapidly conducts heat away from the puddle. I have been practicing TIG welding with a Lincoln Square Wave TIG 175. It is a really fun process to work with, and i certainly need a LOT more practice with it. Mine runs just fine on a 50 AMP breaker, but the manual specifies a 100 amp circuit for maximum machine output. | ||
| Interex2050 |
Fullpower, Some good news regarding the welder... I was digging around in the fuse box, and something caught my eye; One of the fuse blocks had some heavy duty wires, and sure enough it measured 242 volts. Now I am thinking that maybe I should get one of those "buzz boxes" and use the miller unit I have now. Do you have any experience with those, also what kind of amperage do you use for welding aluminum? Thank you | ||
| Fullpower |
using the foot pedal for modulation, i typicaly set the machine amperage at 150, then use max pedal to start arc, as soon as i have puddle back it down to half or 60 percent. this is with 3/32" pure tungsten, and around 20 Cu Ft per Hour of argon gas. a degree of finger-tip, or foot operated amperage control is very desirable in TIG work, to control the amount of heat. I imagine one COULD learn to use a fixed amperage set-up, but would take a great deal more skill. | ||
| Bigj |
Mr. Full, If you think these engines won't ping and/or detonate while running as designed, you're dead wrong. I am not going to go into it, as I've done so before ad nauseum, as long as seven years ago, on this board. The best way to "cure" it is to enrich your fuel mixture at the points where it does it. Preferably, you shouldn't have to do anything, but that's not realistic. | ||
| Jimincalif |
To understand how ping is related to spark advance, you really need to play with a more primitive engine  . Example: I used to have a Baja Bug. A semi-tricked-out '66 with a somewhat built motor, dual carbs, balanced, decent off-road cam, etc. Distributor was a pure-centrifical-advance type. The more you advanced the spark (twisting the distributor, I think to the right but it's been many moons...) the faster it would go, esp. accelleration, but more advance meant more ping. So I had these little marks carved into the engine block with the tip of my pocket knife. Each mark showed, via experiment, how far I could crank the advance based on the octane gas I could score. If I was broke and ran 87, I backed off the spark to match. Stick some 92 in there, crank it up . In talking to the shop that built that engine to my specs, they were clear that in their drag-bugs they did *everything* possible to fight ping, so they could crank up the spark advance. They went so far as to do their run with the motor close to stone cold as that reduced ping some. These guys were the first in the nation to break into the 9s in the quarter in a bug (actually Ghia) with no turbo, no supercharger, no nitrous, pump gas, so they knew what they were doing. Now...does the XB ignition system use "knock sensing" to back off the spark advance electronically if it pings? I recall 1980s-era VW watercoolers were just coming in with such systems that would automatically take advantange of more octane in the gas. I run a tube-frame with carb, I know damned well I have no such critter. If the XBs DO have such a feature, it sounds like maybe yours is defective!? Otherwise, your best choice to control ping *might* be to switch to a dual-spark ignition system with fully controlled spark advance so you can control it yourself. | ||
| Sparky |
XBs have an engine temp sensor, O2 sensor, cam position sensor, bank angle sensor, intake air temp sensor, throttle position sensor, but no knock sensor. A dual spark ignition is out of the question for these stock bikes because the cam position sensor determines not only the ignition timing but the fuel map calibration using independently mapped spark and fuel control. One would have to scrap all this to devise a dual spark ignition system that works unless the aftermarket has a system that they are not telling anybody about. Note: A few people have reported more pinging when the engine gets hot or when the ambient air temperature tends towards hot. This may be a symptom of an Intake Air Temp sensor that has gone out of calibration. It might be worthwhile to check out the IAT per the diagnostic procedures in the SM. | ||
| Interex2050 |
This is getting interesting... Now can anyone tell me how these sensors "interact"/make the EFI react. Is there some sort of order of "dominance"? The intake air temp does sounds pretty close to what I have, but then so does the timing... Would either of these only effect a certain rpm range? Or even better what exactly does the little "computer" do, what is it in charge of and how it comes about doing so... The most "advanced" machine that I have worked on was a CDI ignition bike, nothing more then a bunch of switches. So I am not only untrusting of the XB's system but also a little lost... thanks | ||
| Interex2050 |
Well ran out of the 100 went back to 91 and wow... 91 offers much more of a brutal acceleration. and now a little fun with stick welding     still a little rusty and that can only mean one thing... practice practice practice | ||
| Blake |
When the intake air temp sensor on our Ford Explorer gets dirty, it causes the engine to ping on account of the sensor heats up more than if it were clean and that is interpreted electronically by the ECM as less airflow. The ECM thus responds with less fuel which can lead to excessively lean air/fuel charge and thus detonation/pinging. Suggest you check the sensor and clean it off with some contact cleaner. Doing so on our Exploder does wonders for stopping the pinging. Wish I could weld that nicely. | ||
| Interex2050 |
alrighty sounds like a plan, also gives me an excuse to check my filter and lube the interactive valve cable. thanks a bunch |
