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Glitch
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:19 am: |
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Whatever. How many BadWeBbers work for Pepsi. I know one great guy, ever so loved by the masses at BadWeB that works at Coke. Just kidding by the way, as long as the majority of the world drinks Coke, I'll still be employed. |
Tripper
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:23 pm: |
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I heard that PepsiCo passed Coca Cola last week. Yes, I know that they were counting pizzas and tacos, but hey, I eat those all the time! |
Dbird29
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
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But does Pepsi have ZTL?
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Davegess
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:05 pm: |
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Jose, can you put your hands on the top speed numbers and lap times for FX, 600 supersport and Superbike at last years Daytona? That should tell us just how STOCK an 600 FX bike is. |
Blake
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:28 pm: |
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I'm an equal opportunity soft-drink consumer. No cola bigotry here. Actually, I cannot recall the last time I drank any soft-drink. When Coke or Pepsi come out with a less sweet tasting drink, I might give it a go. Just way too much sugar for me. |
Cataract2
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:29 pm: |
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No, Pepsi doesn't have ZTL. They do have the 1340 cc engine though. |
Blake
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:39 pm: |
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Dave, The Supersport bikes were cutting better lap times at Daytona last year. Shows just how important the whole bike approach is to making quicker laps. The Supersport bikes though not as powerful were all very well sorted as a whole and well known to their racers. The factory Honda CBR600RR's while more powerful, were new to the racing grid and thus not very well sorted. The same problem could just as easily bite the XBRR and R6 Factory racers this year. The Honda FX factory bikes should be very well sorted after last season's experience. If the XBRR does show well right out of the box at Daytona, that should be undeniable proof that the XB platform is indeed superior in many ways to the 600cc repli- racer status quo. |
Cluckcluckpush
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 02:24 pm: |
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are there any links to pictures of the internal engine components, crank pistons heads etc.?? |
Jima4media
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 02:43 pm: |
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Blake, Supersport bikes where cutting better lap times at Daytona than who? Not Superbike, not Supersport. I guess for not being very well sorted the Honda CBR600RR's failed by coming in 1-2-3 in the FX Daytona 200? Maybe they'll do better this year. Dave, Thanks for the reminder of Gene Church on the Buell RR1000. He crashed on the first lap, but he was in the race. Thanks to Google, and Henrik's Team Elves website and for your story, which everyone should read for its historical significance. http://www.teamelves.com/bike/history.html |
Bigdaddy
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 02:55 pm: |
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Banging on Gene Church is wrong. The man has one very impressive racing resume. He was, and is, a winner. I invite you to come visit and I'll introduce you to one of North Carolina's racing legends,,,, Gene Church. Ya'll come! G2 |
What_the
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 03:12 pm: |
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FX speeds... Solo... in the low to mid 170's In a tow.... mid to high 170's 178 was posted as the top speed in FX at the Daytona tire test this year. |
Blake
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 05:20 pm: |
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Jim, Try to follow the discussion. Last year fresh out of the box, the more powerful HRC FX bikes were slower around Daytona than the top Supersport entries. They constituted the ONLY factory effort in FX last year. Being slower than supersport competitors pretty much proves that they were not optimally sorted for Miguel and Zemke. Pretty simple and straight forward logic. Gene Church still actually rides a motorcycle. You? |
Bigdaddy
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 05:27 pm: |
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I've probably not seen Gene in the last year,,,after he left Tilley's for a local UJM shop. Good guy and around here he had a huge fan base when he was active. I spent the decade he dominated out of the country so (pre Internet 24/7 connectivity) and I had to stay current with snail mail and phone. I don't know his current riding status, but I will stop in and ask him -- shoot, I'll see if I can get him to post up for you if you'd like? Advise. G2 |
Tripper
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 05:30 pm: |
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Nobody banged on Gene Church... the man just admitted that the fact slipped his mind. |
Blake
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 05:41 pm: |
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It'd be an honor to have him chime in here! Tripper, Sometimes it's best to let others fight their own battles, know what I mean? |
Davegess
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 05:44 pm: |
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What is the difference between supersport and FX bike? I though the Superpsort was pretty close to stock while the FX had lots of mods? |
Jima4media
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 07:02 pm: |
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Blake, Anyone can go to AMA Superbike and look up the results from Daytona last year, and see that you are blowing smoke out of your ass. http://www.amasuperbike.com/round.php?sc=1218&year=2005&number=1&UID=W8fw3D6LUHq L4NvQbxcJCsXDyYzgGw Click on Results and Points and then click on Formula Xtreme and Supersport and compare the times. Last time I check 142.59 was faster than 1:43.510 (Message edited by jima4media on January 29, 2006) |
Jima4media
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 07:06 pm: |
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I wasn't banging Gene Church. I said he crashed. In order to finish first in a race, you first have to finish. Rule numero uno in racing. |
Imonabuss
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 07:06 pm: |
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Jim, There definitely has been a Buell in the 200; Erik was the fastest rookie qualifier for the 1978 200; the next fastest rookie was Randy Mamola. Erik ran in the top ten until his Yamaha ignition module gave out at about 130 miles. And when Gene Church crashed in turn one at the start of the second lap, he was leading his race over works Ducatis with GP riders on them. Not bad for a poor southern boy on a "Beeyooool." Where have you run? |
Bigdaddy
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 08:02 pm: |
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Jim, You were simply stating facts -- my reply was wrong. I have no desire to start a urination contest and admit that I was wrong. I've been a Gene Church fan since the beginning and many, probably most, don't realize how completely he dominated for a few years. PRO TWINS GRAND PRIX (GP1) 1985 Gene Church, Turnersburg, NC Harley-Davidson 1984 Gene Church, Turnersburg, NC Harley-Davidson 1983 Gene Church, Turnersburg, NC Harley-Davidson BATTLE OF THE TWINS (Grand Prix) Year Winner, Hometown Mach. 1986 Gene Church, Turnersburg, NC Harley-Davidson 1985 Gene Church, Turnersburg, NC Harley-Davidson 1984 Gene Church, Turnersburg, NC Harley-Davidson .....dude put some hardware on the mantel. G2 |
Jima4media
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 08:03 pm: |
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OK Harvey Mushman, was there ever an Erik Buell on a Buell motorcycle in the Daytona 200? |
José_quiñones
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:26 pm: |
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Dave,
quote:What is the difference between supersport and FX bike? I though the Superpsort was pretty close to stock while the FX had lots of mods?
Basically. Click here for the AMA Rulebook pages 18-19 cover the Supersport engine rules, where almost everything has to remain stock. the main differences between an FX 600 and a Supersport are the suspension/wheels/brakes components, which must be stock for the Supersport bike, while for the FX they can use anything. Supersport bikes use DOT tires, while FX uses slicks data logging is not allowed in supersport, it is in FX carbon fiber bodywork FX Yes, SS No, and in for SS it must look like the stock bodywork. Chassis wise, there's other differences but those are the main ones Engine wise, here's the FX rulebook for 600's:
quote:4. Multi-cylinder and liquid-cooled twin-cylinder motorcycles: The following engine components may not be altered from the originally approved model except as noted: a. Engine type, configuration, stroke and any modifications of engine components to alter the stock OEM firing order of the cylinders are not permitted. b. Stock crankshaft 1. Bearing surfaces may be polished or surface treated. 2. Balancing is permitted only by the same method used by the OEM. For example, heavy metal (i.e. Mallory metal) inserts are not permitted unless they were originally specified by the OEM. 3. Attachment of aftermarket ignition components or sensors is permitted. 4. Primary gears cannot be changed or modified. c. Stock cylinders, cylinder heads and crankcases. 1. Machining, welding and the addition of material are permitted 2. Cylinder liners or coatings may be replaced or added. d. Aftermarket or modified valves, springs, retainers and other valve-train components are permitted. The original number of valves must be maintained. 1. Valve diameter, including stem, must remain stock. 2. Valves must be made of the same basic material as the OEM valves. This restriction does not apply to twin cylinder engines. 3. Valves must remain in the same location and at the same angle as originally installed by the OEM. e. Aftermarket camshafts are permitted. 1. Cam lift and the resulting valve lift must be no greater than stock. This restriction does not apply to twin cylinder engines. 2. Aftermarket cam drive components are permitted, but must be in the same engine location as the OEM drive. g. Transmission shafts and gear sets Two options are available for these components: 1. Stock transmission shafts and gear sets Undercutting and surface treatments are the only modifications allowed. 2. Approved transmission shafts and gear sets Each manufacturer will be permitted one alternative set of gear ratios per approved model. Approved shafts and gears may be interchanged with stock components. Undercutting and surface treatments are the only modifications allowed. Only shafts and gears sold through the OEM distributor or its dealers are permitted. a. Approved transmission component must be available individually or as a set to AMA Superbike-licensed riders for the entire current season (or the remaining part of the season). Orders determined to be legitimate by AMA Pro Racing and accompanied by a 50% deposit must be filled within 15 business days of receipt by the OEM distributor or dealer. b. Retail price of individual approved transmission components may not exceed twice the manufacturer's suggested retail price of the components they replace. If a manufacturer does not offer optional AMA-approved transmission components, then the stock components must be retained. h. Fuel injection throttle-body assemblies 1. Assemblies include all attached parts with the exception of fasteners, cables, cable actuating pulleys, flexible fuel lines, vacuum lines, air box connection tubes and velocity stacks. 2. Variable-length fuel injection intake tract devices that function while the engine is operating are prohibited. 3. The stock OEM throttle body sub-assemblies must be utilized. a. Modifications are not permitted to the following controlled components: 1. Intake bore castings and associated housings 2. Butterfly valves and shafts 3. Non-flexible fuel rail b. Fuel injectors may be replaced with aftermarket units provided the original mounting locations are maintained and no modifications are made to the throttle body assembles for injector fitment. The total number of installed injectors must be the same as originally produced. c. Secondary butterfly valves may be fixed in the open position. d. All other fuel injection system components may be modified or replaced with aftermarket items. i. Intake air boxes Stock air boxes are required with only the following modifications permitted: 1. Air filters, internal flap type valve, sensors and vacuum fittings may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts or removed. Any holes in the air box to the outside atmosphere resulting from the removal of components must be completely sealed from incoming air. All incoming air must pass through the original, unmodified air box inlets. 2. Ram air tubes or ducts may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts or removed. If tubes/ducts are utilized, they must be attached to the original, unmodified air box inlets. 3. Velocity stacks may be modified, replaced with aftermarket parts or removed. The only modification permitted to the air box to allow use of alternate velocity stacks is the removal of internal debris deflectors/plates. Variable-length fuel injection intake tract devices that function while the engine is operating are prohibited.
A FX 600 is closer to stock engine wise than most people think. Watercooled twins are allowed more modifications and as everyone knows by now, air cooled twins have unlimited modifications. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on January 29, 2006) |
José_quiñones
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:41 pm: |
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Last year for Daytona only the top three bikes, the factory FX Hondas and the Attack Kawasaki, had a faster qualifying lap time than the fastest Supersport bike. Miguel and Jake got in to the 1:42's. Josh Hayes had a 1:43.012 on their FX bikes. Tommy Hayden got the Supersport pole with a 1:43.510 |
José_quiñones
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:45 pm: |
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Comparing the race lap times are iffy because your're comparing a sprint race to an endurance race, but here goes: Supersport: WINNER'S AVG. LAP TIME: 1:43.773 For FX: WINNER'S AVG. LAP TIME: 1:45.462 |
Davegess
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:52 pm: |
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The FX bike are quite a bit faster, couple of seconds a lap, than the supersport bikes so it all adds up. |
Tripper
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:55 pm: |
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Blake; don't know what ya mean. There's a fight somewhere? |
Davegess
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:57 pm: |
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I looked at Road Atlantas race times and the FX bike were faster there. Definatly a different ballgame at 200 miles |
Josh_
| Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:16 pm: |
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>A FX 600 is closer to stock engine wise than most people think. Watercooled twins are allowed more modifications and as everyone knows by now, air cooled twins have unlimited modifications. Which is why the current Japanese 600cc motors ship with technology only dreamed about a few years ago. Any why they are obsolete after 2 years Buell success in FX and the subsequent rule changes to achieve balance may just be the final straw towards Erik getting us a new engine. Square four anyone? |
Jon
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:29 am: |
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Nobody said Jim "banged" on Gene, for Pete's sake. Blake is throwing a slider at Jim because Jim has not ridden for some time and does not have a motorcycle. Trust me folks, these two are the best of pals. You should hear them talk politics. (Message edited by jon on January 30, 2006) |
Jima4media
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 01:39 am: |
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Well Jon and Blake, The last Buell I rode last month was a Ulysses. Have either of you ridden one? How about a FJR-1300 Yamaha? Jim |
José_quiñones
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 08:01 am: |
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The RR is illegal for CCS/ASRA Thunderbike if you read the rulebook:
quote:6.5 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single cylinder machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. Single cylinder 2 stroke GP road race machines are not allowed in this class. All machines must have unaltered VIN numbers. NOTE: Ducati 749 Series machines are excluded from this class. 6.5.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be approved on an individual basis. CCS will maintain a list of non-standard approved models and that list will be available at each event from the Race Director/Referee. A. CCS reserves the right to re-factor machines at any time. CCS will notify current licensees 30 days prior to any change. Changes will take effect 30 days from the original date of notification. 6.5.2. All machines must meet the equipment standards of Section 5, as well as the following: A. Frame, cylinder head(s) and engine cases must be from the same production model motorcycle. Single cylinder motorcycles may use any frame and engine. B. The frame must be as originally supplied by the manufacturer on the approved model. Strengthening gussets or tubes may be added. Only brackets or tubes not supporting suspension, engine, or drive line components may be removed. Swing arms may be modified or replaced and rear shocks may be replaced or relocated. Single cylinder motorcycles are excluded from this restriction. C. Reducing engine size of machines from stock displacement to meet Thunder class displacement limits is not allowed. D. Fairings that meet the requirements of Section 5 may be used. E. Liquid cooling is not allowed unless original equipment on the model being used. F. Original type of induction system must be retained. If a machine originally was sold with fuel injection, then it must remain fuel injected. If the machine originally came with carburetors, then it must use carburetors, however they need not be the original type or size. 6.5.3- CCS Thunderbike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows: THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert) Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement Two stroke, Unlimited displacement Twin cylinder, air cooled, Unlimited displacement Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 3 or less valves per cylinder, Unlimited displacement Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder, up to 750cc Three cylinder, air cooled, non-fuel injected, up to 1200cc Four cylinder, air-cooled, up to 1200cc Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1990 to 1992 model year, up to 650cc Four cylinder, liquid cooled (oil or water), pre-1990 model year, up to 860cc All air-cooled, 2-valve, unlimited displacement
6.5.1 gives them a loophole. Don't know what the "engine reduction kit" is but hopefully that resolve the situation. |
José_quiñones
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 08:07 am: |
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This is a photo of the preproduction model (thanks Chris for the pics). By the time these bikes show up at Daytona, those frames better have a VIN Number.... |
Imonabuss
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 08:21 am: |
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Oh my, Jose, the idiots at Buell probably forgot about that... |
Court
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 08:26 am: |
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Jose' Good news.....all has, long ago, bee deaklt with and resolved. Interesting history....as is most racing. Spin ahead to the present....it's beginning to look like DAYTONA may actually return to an exciting motorcycle race. Get to work getting all the DCBRAG folks headed down and start rousting the HD folks at nearby dealers. I've already been clipped for one Buell prize package today! |
Jon
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:00 pm: |
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Jim, I'm not ragging on you for not having a bike, I was explaining Blake's remark. No, I haven't ridden a Uly and don't intend to for the forseable future. I still like my X1. Always will, I suspect. |
Blake
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 07:36 pm: |
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Yep, I've ridden a Uly, on a dirt road too. It rocks! I want one! I'll keep the Cyclone too. I guess my browser displays different laps times than yours Jim. Or maybe it's the smoke blowing out of my ass that is causing me the confusion. Suggest you obtain a motorcycle and go for a ride.
FX Race | . | . | . | . | . | . | Pos. | No. | Best time | Session | Rider name | Hometown | Bike | 1 | 80 | 01:42.9 | Final - 1 | Kurtis L Roberts | Denver, CO | Honda CBR600RR | 2 | 1 | 01:43.3 | Final - 1 | Miguel Duhamel | Las Vegas, NV | Honda CBR600RR | 3 | 3 | 01:43.7 | Final - 1 | Vincent Haskovec | Athens, AL | Suzuki GSX-R600 | 4 | 98 | 01:43.8 | Final - 1 | Jake P Zemke | Paso Robles, CA | Honda CBR600RR | 5 | 69 | 01:44.1 | Final - 1 | Danny C Eslick | Broken Arrow, OK | Suzuki GSX-R600 | 6 | 4 | 01:44.6 | Final - 1 | Joshua Hayes | Gulfport, MS | Kawasaki ZX-6RR | 7 | 34 | 01:44.8 | Final - 1 | Michael F Barnes | Boca Raton, FL | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 8 | 911 | 01:45.5 | Final - 1 | Michael A Smith | Canton, GA | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 9 | 8 | 01:45.6 | Final - 1 | Chris Peris | Calgary, AB | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 10 | 174 | 01:45.7 | Final - 1 | Jason Perez | Brentwood, CA | Yamaha YZF-R6 | . | . | . | . | . | . | . | Supersport Race | . | . | . | . | . | . | Pos. | No. | Best time | Session | Rider name | Hometown | Bike | 1 | 63 | 01:39.7 | Final - 1 | Jason Moss | Greensboro, NC | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 2 | 1 | 01:42.4 | Final - 1 | Tommy Hayden | Owensboro, KY | Kawasaki ZX-6RR | 3 | 95 | 01:42.7 | Final - 1 | Roger Lee Hayden | Owensboro, KY | Kawasaki ZX-6RR | 4 | 2 | 01:42.8 | Final - 1 | Jamie A Hacking | Denver, NC | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 5 | 11 | 01:43.1 | Final - 1 | Ben Spies | Longview, TX | Suzuki GSX-R600X | 6 | 40 | 01:43.2 | Final - 1 | Jason Disalvo | Stafford, NY | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 7 | 96 | 01:43.3 | Final - 1 | Aaron Gobert | Murrieta, CA | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 8 | 152 | 01:43.9 | Final - 1 | Robert Jensen | Chaffee, ND | Yamaha YZF-R6 | 9 | 99 | 01:44.4 | Final - 1 | Geoff May | Cumming, GA | Suzuki GSX-R600 | 10 | 34 | 01:44.5 | Final - 1 | Michael F Barnes | Boca Raton, FL | Yamaha YZF-R6 | Four Supersport entries posted quicker race lap times than the quickest FX entry at Daytona last year. Not sure I believe the first one though. (Message edited by blake on January 30, 2006) |
Davegess
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 08:40 pm: |
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200 mile race times are not to be compared to a sprint. I thing practice times or times at Road America might be better indicators of relatve power. I have to think FX bikes are faster than Supersport as they are allowed to change stuff the SS guys can't AND they run slicks |
Blake
| Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 09:08 pm: |
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Dave, I agree, except for when the FX bike is new right out of the box and not yet dialed-in like a season of racing will allow a bike/rider/team to do. Which was the point I was trying to make. |
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