| Author | Message | ||
     Interex2050 |
After having the Ducati for a while I was spoiled by the lack (well non-existance) of pinging... So I want to try to get one tank of "race fuel", something along the lines of 100 octane, and see if my XB will still ping. I figure that there are plenty of performance italian cars out here in Los Angeles that have a high enough compression to want high octane fuel, so the search begins... Although this is in no way a permanent solution (most-likely my timing is off), but it should prove to be an interesting experiment and a waste of money. | ||
| Ralf |
Leaded race gas will increase the octane of premium unleaded significantly, and the net result is that you only need to add one gallon to a full tank. Saves you lots of money over a fill up with the 4.89 per gallon stuff. | ||
| Interex2050 |
My only concern with leaded is that it will eat up my O2 sensor... On the other hand it might lube the valves better. Finding this stuff in Los Angeles is a pain, I have been trying to contact ferrari (and like brands) dealerships/service places but... a) they have no idea what I am talking about b) they are only interested in selling me something c) they don't speak english (most cases, and by no means comforting) Does anyone have any idea where I can get a batch in the Los Angeles area? | ||
| Scoobytwo |
Aviation "avgas" is leaded gas. The usual is 100 low lead. You should be able to buy it at any municiple airport. | ||
| Bigj |
My friend, do not run leaded gas in your XB. There are several 76 stations in the LA area that carry 100 unleaded at the pump. It is CARB legal and works well. The issue is price. Depending on the station, it is between $5-$6 a gallon. www.osbornauto.com/racing/100locations.htm (Message edited by bigj on January 26, 2006) | ||
| Diablobrian |
We have seen O2 sensors die very quickly at the track. unfortunately one was ours. | ||
| Typeone |
i experimented with octane boosters over the summer to combat ping... running 93 (or 94) octane with some boost (tried 2 or 3 brands i read about on the BadWeb making sure it was O2-safe stuff) I still had ping. even after all the usual checks/rechecks of static timing, dyno time, different plugs, etc. as soon as the cooler temps rolled in for Fall... no ping. | ||
| Bigj |
Almost any "octane boost" available doesn't do very much, and some have other drawbacks. If you HAVE to cure pinging by changing fuel, your best bet is to do it by blending gas. As someone that did that with a Buell for 20,000 miles, that should be last resort, as the price will kill you. There are other ways to cure pinging(possibly). If you can find a way to introduce more fuel into the charge, that's usually the best way, for lotsa reasons. | ||
| Bigj |
Pinging and/or detonation happens because the charge is lighting off on its own. This is due to increased heat and pressure, which are inter related. If you find a way to reduce the combustion chamber heat and/or pressure, usually by a combination of things, then your pinging or detonation will stop. In an air cooled motor, ambient temp and low humidity are things you can't control that are killers. | ||
| Interex2050 |
Richening the fuel mixture would be my weapon of choice... But from what I can recall only the REAL race ecm can be programmed (another reason to get a racing license), while the publicly available "race" ecm is preset. The fuel mixing idea might be the most reasonable though, after making sure that the O2 sensor and timing are OK. Octane boosters would be the last thing I would do. I simply don't trust them... | ||
| Interex2050 |
Bigj, thank you very much for that list. | ||
| Bigj |
I think they make PowerCommanders for the XB. That would probably be the best way to go. | ||
| Lenny |
I used 104 octane boost works great no more pinging. I have been using since 2004 in my XB12s | ||
| Bigj |
The problem is, the conditions for pinging are worse in Socal than anywhere else in the US, for a few different reasons. The incredibly low humidity we been having here the last couple of weeks is ping city. Buells aren't the only thing that pings  | ||
| Microchop |
To top it all off, try finding anything higher than 91 octane at most gas stations. | ||
| Microchop |
To top it all off, try finding anything higher than 91 octane at most gas stations. In L.A, I mean. | ||
| Ponytail |
Has anyone tried running colder plugs in the summer? This is a common fix for Harley riders. I know many that run a colder plug just in the rear cylinder for the same reasons. Good info on plugs at http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/spkplghnbook.htm#discussed There are two schools of thought published on that sight. The one that I noted is from a Spark Plug manufacturer. The other that is available at that site is from an experienced ignition tuner... http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/readplugs.htm Although most of the info is specific to Harleys on that site, you can pull out the info that applies to air-cooled v-twins in general. I tuned my Sportster and Springer using info from that site and they were dead on. (Message edited by ponytail on January 27, 2006) | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
the conditions for pinging are worse in Socal than anywhere else in the US That is a very inaccurate statement. AZ gets the same fuel as Cali, has the same fuel ratings, and has a relative humidity that is much lower then SoCal and a mean average temp that is Much higher during the summer months then everything except Death Valley. Why do you think HD/BMC have a contract with GM for lease of their Desert Proving Grounds here in Mesa for their Durability testing? Try and establish a pattern for 'ping'. During the warmer days do you let the bike warm up sufficiently before take off, or do you short cut it because its warm out? Does it happen after stop and go? Does it only happen in a rev range under part throttle. Just saying 'it pings all the time' is an indication of something wrong. Make notes to yourself of when the 'ping' occurs. Also make sure you check the tightness of the primary chain. You would be suprised how much 'ping' vanished after double checking and setting it correctly. | ||
| Fullpower |
toluene, acetone, and/or isopropyl alcohol will all raise the octane of gasoline. DO NOT put LEADED aviation fuel in your XB, it will instantly render your oxygen sensor inoperative. First, check your static timing, then check your intake manifold seals. these engines are only running 10 to one compression, and at around 160 PSI cranking pressure, they dont need much in the way of octane. | ||
| Glitch |
Although this is in no way a permanent solution (most-likely my timing is off), but it should prove to be an interesting experiment and a waste of money. If you feel there is a setting wrong, no amount of octane boost will help, if your timing is off enough to ping, don't throw gas on the fire. Take your bike to a dealer and have them do your AFValue, TPS reset, and timing. | ||
| Interex2050 |
Regardless of the temperature outside it I let the bike warm up, usually 1-2 minutes when its warm and 2-5 minutes when cold. I was actually excited that winter was coming up in hopes there won't be any pinging... but that was not the case as it will ping just as happily in cold weather. The bike pings when accelerating hard around 3000 when the bike is fully warmed up. This tends to happen more often in "city" situations, but not in the canyons where the engine often experiences rpms close to the redline (it is rare that I hit the rev-limiter though). Another interesting note is that I get my highest fuel efficiency in the canyons (50-40mpg), moderate on the freeway (40mpg), and lowest in the city (30mpg). One more thing... The bike is very picky when it comes to fuel brands. -It simply HATES Mobile1, it simply will refuse to run well. -76 makes it run pretty good aside from the fact that pinging becomes much more frequent. -Chevron and Shell are pretty close for first place, with Shell slightly in the lead. I shant be putting any aviation fuel in my baby so no worries. The spark plug idea is something I am going to look into. Maybe while I am at it switch to denso iridium plugs. Atop of that I am switching over to mobile1 v-twin oil, so maybe that would do something... | ||
| Interex2050 |
Thanks Glitch, I shall take care of the AFValue, TPS reset and timing when I go in to get my tires mounted (along with a few other things, it's cheaper to get "bulk" service) pretty soon. The only trouble that I am having with that is that the Diablos are simply indestructible (so close to reaching the wear indicators but not quite there), and the road conditions have not been ideal for "vigorous" riding. So in the time being I was going to experiment with the higher octane, to collect data regarding the nature of the pinging (a tank of gas shouldn't be that bad... $15ish). Thank you all for the help and advice | ||
| Sarodude |
Anyone ever put serious time into setting up water injection? I know we're talking about FI bikes.... BUT.... One could possibly set up an auxiliary "fuel" circuit like a ThunderJet or Dial-A-Jet and have it deliver water instead of fuel. These things are DEVASTATINGLY simple and, last I heard, water was still pretty cheap and has been successfully used to control combustion. Some minor modification of the Throttle Body UPSTREAM of the throttle plate to mount this, a small tank / float arrangement - who know what would result. I don't have an FI bike so I can't really comment on the reality of this. -Saro | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Fullpower, toluene, acetone I ran that for a couple of months last year about a 10 to 15 % mix.. Ran good but decided to stop it after that as it was a pain to mix plus the added cost of about 30.00 a gallon of the stuff...It really does add points and not just percent points like all the automotive octane boosters do... | ||
| Microchop |
Same gas rating in AZ? I don't think so. I live in Socal, I just drove to Camp Verde, AZ and back last weekend ('bout 900 miles round trip, about 4 fill-ups in my Cherokee)I saw plenty of 93 octane in AZ, I never see it around Los Angeles. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I saw plenty of 93 octane in AZ 93 is a rarety in AZ, mostly found in areas where there is high dune/desert offroading action 91/92 is the general norm for AZ. But aside from that what you MUST remember, 91 is the MINIMUM rating for the fuel coming out of the nozzle. That means it CAN be 92-93-94 etc etc etc as long as it ISN'T less then 91. | ||
| Fullpower |
I run a stone age simple (single stage, two jets, volume controlled with bypass orifice) water injection on my ice race car. built from windshield washer pump, single stage meaning full flow, activated at 90 percent throttle. i run 50-50 methanol and water, approximately 20 pounds per hour. absolutely NO detonation problems there. Realisticly, a street bike with 10 to one compression does NOT need exotic fuels, nor any special tricks to run right. A stock hayabusa will run 9.9 second standing quarter miles, then top out over 180 miles per hour on 87 octane regular unleaded. there aint nothin special about that sportster motor that needs 95 octane "race gas" . If it is pinging YOUR BIKE HAS A PROBLEM. fix the problem, dont feed the problem. | ||
| Rageonthedl |
Wyckedflesh, We used to get race gas for my Friends Turbo Charged Del Sol si at Mobil on the Run in Chandler on chandler blvd. I dont remember if it was leaded or not. | ||
| Cmm213 |
I dont think anyones bike should ping in cali the air is usually dry and below 100. I live in the midwest- Indiana and it gets sticky hot here sometimes 100 humidity and my bike as never pinged, and I run 92 oct. Take her in to get checked out before you go broke with pricey exotic fuel. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
Cmm, I live in Indiana too an have experienced pinging on 93 octane only one time. EXTENDED IDLING. | ||
| Bigj |
Wycked, The gas in AZ is ABSOLUTELY not the same as any gas in Cali. Did you know there are hundreds of blends of gasoline nationwide as mandated by the EPA? CMM, The higher the humidity, everything else equal, the less likely to ping. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
If you've read How Car Engines Work, you know that almost all cars use four-stroke gasoline engines. One of the strokes is the compression stroke, where the engine compresses a cylinder-full of air and gas into a much smaller volume before igniting it with a spark plug. The amount of compression is called the compression ratio of the engine. A typical engine might have a compression ratio of 8-to-1. (See How Car Engines Work for details.) The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting. The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the car. One way to increase the horsepower of an engine of a given displacement is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel. The advantage of a high compression ratio is that it gives your engine a higher horsepower rating for a given engine weight -- that is what makes the engine "high performance." The disadvantage is that the gasoline for your engine costs more. The name "octane" comes from the following fact: When you take crude oil and "crack" it in a refinery, you end up getting hydrocarbon chains of different lengths. These different chain lengths can then be separated from each other and blended to form different fuels. For example, you may have heard of methane, propane and butane. All three of them are hydrocarbons. Methane has just a single carbon atom. Propane has three carbon atoms chained together. Butane has four carbon atoms chained together. Pentane has five, hexane has six, heptane has seven and octane has eight carbons chained together. It turns out that heptane handles compression very poorly. Compress it just a little and it ignites spontaneously. Octane handles compression very well -- you can compress it a lot and nothing happens. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent heptane (or some other combination of fuels that has the same performance of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane). It spontaneously ignites at a given compression level, and can only be used in engines that do not exceed that compression ratio. Based on that simple explanation taken from Consumer Guides "How it works" fuel rated at 91-92 octane in Cali MUST compare to fuel rated at 91-92 in AZ, or Indiana, or NY or any where else in the US based on OCTANE RATING as per the Federal Guidelines to determine the octane rating of fuel. Stating the fuel we get here is the same as the fuel in Cali BASED ON OCTANE RATINGS is accurate as the fuel MUST perform the same in both locations. What additives are involved or what the EPA changes to the blends is irrelevent when the discussion is about OCTANE RATING. The fuel must still perform to the compression point the same in both places. The blends are what allow the fuels to maintain that OCTANE RATING in the different areas as based on the differences in humidity, mean average temp and such. It is STILL 91-92 rated fuel. It will react the same inside the compression chamber regardless of where it is. What is a common misconception is that the rating on the pump is the ACTUAL rating of the fuel. It is not, and as has been proven every time the auto motive magazines do their fuel testing, the AVERAGE Octane rating thru out the year is 1-2 points higher then what is on the pump in states that have extreme variances of climate. All the blends do is keep the fuel at the MINIMUM octane rating as listed on the pump for that area. Where you get a difference in fuel is when you compare average Premium grades across the board. Cali and AZ both use 91-92 as the GENERAL use Premium rated with some stations running 90 and some running 93. Unlike states in higher humidity areas that have 93-94 octane as their GENERAL rated Premium fuel. Is my comment now understood or should I just STFU and let you all blindly throw money around to band aid something that is broken instead of finding out what the problem is and correcting it properly? | ||
| Sokota |
Just an observation , it seems like just the 12s have pinging issues and fouling plug issues. Plug fouling is probally due to poor start up technique , but pinging is a bit of a mystery with the 9s and 12s having same bore and compression ratio . I run "Hi Test" gas from any station ,dont worry about one hose to all three grades, fill up the 9SX and proceed to put some stick to her , have never heard the slightest hint of any detonation. Might be hard to get a optimum timing curve on that lonng stroke? | ||
| Starter |
Don't mean to be a smarty pants but my xb9r actually gets better mileage and no pinging on regular 89 unleaded as opposed to 95 premium. Don't matter which brand either. I'm in Sydney Aust. | ||
| Sokota |
Possibly the 12s are just at a thermal threshold with there additional power [also heat] interesting to maybe start the fan 10 to 25 degrees earlier. | ||
| Mb182 |
"Richening the fuel mixture would be my weapon of choice... But from what I can recall only the REAL race ecm can be programmed" Adjusting the TPS Moves the fuel curve up or down to richen or lean the mix. MB | ||
| Glitch |
Adjusting the TPS Moves the fuel curve up or down to richen or lean the mix. Wrong. Adjusting the TPS only tells the ECM where zero (throttle closed) is. It does nothing to the air/fuel mixture. TPS Throttle Position Sensor (Message edited by glitch on January 31, 2006) | ||
| Rashika |
interesting reading guys, certainly giving me some insight into how octane works. I too have occasional pinging issues on my XB12R 04. (christchurch NZ) Its always under acceleration when it happens, and usually at 60mph plus speeds, often overtaking. My partner has also experienced it, and he certainly takes it to its limits at times! The only time it doesn't happen under the same conditions (temp etc) is when I have been able to fill up using 98 (BP ultimate). Unfortunately there are only a few stations that have it here, but it is my fuel of choice. It always seems to happen with 91 (the lowest octane we can get here) and sometimes with 96. (Which they have now re-rated as 95) Sidenote: a friend filled up once with 96, got shit performance on his R1, had the fuel tested, it came out at 87 octane, got his money back. At least the US fuel seems to be what it says it is....cant seem to be able to trust the stuff here. |
