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Buell Forum » Knowledge Vault (tech, parts, apparel, & accessories topics) » Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) » Archive through February 28, 2007 » XB12X Pinging » Archive through February 11, 2006

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Author Message   Aeholton Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 08:23 pm:        Lately I've noticed my engine pinging when accelerating hard. It is especially noticeable when the engine is good and hot (after 20-30 minutes of running). I asked my dealer to check timing when it was in for it's 5000 mile maintenance 3 weeks ago, but they said they checked it and it was OK. Is anyone else experiencing pinging? Any ideas on cause?   Sparky Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:35 pm:        A light pinging on acceleration can be considered normal if, for instance, you had accumulated lots of miles in fairly sedate conditions like commuting or maybe doing lots of stop and go types of trips. What I'm tring to say is that if hard acceleration situations once in a while produce pinging, then that type of situation is 'probably' normal. But if you are constantly demanding the most performance and are always getting pinging on hard acceleration, then something could be amiss. If this is the case, then have your dealer go through a checklist of all your bike's parameters and don't leave until every aspect of tuning is per spec for your bike and its configuration. Also don't forget that gasoline formulations usually change during the winter seasons and these changes may result in less than optimum anti-knock conditions. This may be part of what you are experiencing. The other thing that might be happening is that your engine may have accumulated a certain amount of carbon buildup in its first 5000 miles. If so, this situation can lead to the effect of raising compression because there is extra material (carbon deposits) in the combustion chamber. What can happen when you whack the throttle wide open after a long time of buildup is that this extra carbon contributes to pinging (because there is reduced volume in the combustion chamber thus raising compression) until the carbon gradually burns off under high performance situations. In hot rod circles this is known as "blowing out the carbon." It's an honorable practice among the plebes but widely frowned upon by the gendarme, so take this advice with caution. Sparky   Biker_bob Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 10:59 pm:        Strangely enough if you gas up at stations that have only one nozzle per pump you can get quite a bit of gas of another grade. I used to run a high compression bike and was always careful. If some one was running 87 in the hose you are going to get some before the high test. Your bike could be running lean also. Also not all gas with the same octane rating is the same. My old high compression maching would not run Conoco 91 for anything, but others were fine with Amoco/Bp being the best in this part of the country. (Midwest)   Scoobytwo Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 01:06 am:        If you have been babying your engine like biker_bob sugested, you could have a carbon build up. You could try using a combustion cambeer cleaner, take it out and run the •••• out of it. When you come back, change the plugs and hopefully the problem will be fixed. One of the worst things you can do to your engine is baby it.   Opto Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 01:38 am:        Put the highest octane possible fuel in it (unleaded), if you haven't been doing this then do it!   Aeholton Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 08:10 am:        First, I always run the 93 octane gasoline. However, as Biker_bob has mentioned, occasionally get gas at single nozzle pumps. However, I always run my tank well into the reserve before re-fueling. This has been occurring over the past 7-10 tank fulls, so I don't believe gasoline is the problem. Second, I don't baby the bike. I ride pretty aggressively (my wife says too aggressively ). The only time I kinda take it easy is if I have my wife or daughter on board. Otherwise, I wind it up pretty good. I do a lot of stop and go, though. The pinging occurs almost constantly when accelerating. Playing around last night, I noticed that I pings even when accelerating normally (not really hard). I don't have a lot of confidence in the service department at my dealer. As you recall from previous posts, my first service was kind of a fiasco and I had to take my bike back in to have it done properly. I think I am going to call the dealer and ask them to check it over again.   Opto Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 03:57 pm:        Are you running a race ecm? To check the timing yourself look here: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3842&post=284357#POST 284357   Aeholton Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 08:50 pm:        No race ECM. Bike is totally stock. Only thing added are the bags.   Opto Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 04:59 am:        My Uly did ping when it was totally stock, but only rarely. I asked the dealer to check the timing on the first service but I don't know if it was done because something else I asked them to do wasn't done and they are very busy. My XB12S had bad pinging from new and they reset the timing under warranty. My new 1996 Sportster that I bought from them also had pinging and they reset the timing on that too. I retarded the timing even further on that bike for summer. If you have a totally stock bike (no race filter, no race ecm) and you're running good fuel and the ambient temp isn't over 90 degrees F then I'd guess a 97% chance that the timing is advanced and needs to be reset. If you can follow the link I posted above or know someone who can help you do it then that would be my first choice, then you'll know that it's actually been done, and secondly you'll know that its been done properly, unless you want to do some extra miles to a Buell dealer with a good reputation. These bikes do not ping their head off, the timing must be checked, sooner rather than later. Edit - there may be warranty concerns if you actually change the timimg, they will know because you have to drill out the rivets on the cam cover to get to the cam position sensor. It's probably best if you just check the timing, and if it's advanced, talk to the dealer about it. (Message edited by opto on January 14, 2006)   Blake Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 06:57 am:        All good advice so far. Those potential carbon deposits besides helping to increase compression also create hot spots in the chamber. I'd be surprised if your new Uly had that kind of carbon buildup though. One thing to check would be the integrity of the seals at the intake manifold, the part that splits the intake charge from the single throttle body delivering it to the two cylinders as required. How to check? Get yourself a can of contact cleaner, the kind that evaporates real quick. Get the bike warmed up and running at a fast idle, say 2000 rpm or so, pick a spot where it smooths out the vibes a bit. With the little red straw affixed to the contact cleaner's spray nozzle, spray liberally all around each of the manifold seals. When they occur, leaks usually manifest themselves at one of the cylinder head to manifold seal locations, so be especially rigorous with your diagnosis in those two areas. As you are spraying the contact cleaner around a seal area if you notice the speed of the engine change (probably decrease), you have found a potential intake seal leak. I say "potential" because you must then take special care to ensure that none of the contact cleaner is accidentally making its way to the intake orifice proper. Once you are sure it is not and you have found a leak, the dealer should replace the seal for you as your Uly would be in warranty. Or you can do it yourself if you enjoy that kind of work. I once had one leak on me after just a couple thousand miles on a brand new '00 Cyclone. The stock exhaust allowed me to hear the pinging during acceleration. Buell needs to fix this issue once and for all. I think they are on their third iteration of seal configurations in five years now. I could be wrong. Apparently Jim's has an aftermarket alternative that may be superior. My thoughts are that if possible a lighter weight, plastic manifold would help fight this issue. It is probably part vibration (obvious I think), part differential thermal expansion (hot engine expands, cool intake doesn't). The plastic should mitigate both of those loosening mechanisms. Use the same stuff used for the pushrod covers? Anyone know the difference/improvement offered by the Jim's seals? Good luck and let us know what you find. Blake PS: Also remember diagnose integrity of the seal at the manifold to throttle body interface, even though it is less likely to be the culprit.   Aeholton Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 08:41 pm:        I have a service appointment Tuesday morning. I'll post the results of that visit.   Aeholton Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 05:47 pm:        OK, so I go to get my bike checked out this morning. The bike was good and hot by the time I got there at around 8:00am. I told the service advisor that it was pinging after I got off the interstate exit and pulled out onto the surface street. From there I went into to customer lounge to read my book. Anyway, 10:00am comes and I go to the service counter and asked how it was going. He says he will check. I go back into the customer lounge and do some wandering around the showroom. Finally at 11:15am the service advisor sticks his head in the door to the lounge and says it is done. I get to the service counter and he proceeds to read the service remarks from the technician. I quote: "TEST RODE TWENTY-THREE MILES TO VERIFY CONCERN. TECH HEARD NO ABNORMAL ENGINE SOUNDS IN ANY GEAR OR AT ANY SPEED." Then he proceeds to tell me that it will be $60.30 for 0.90hrs labor. I can't believe my ears! I asked him when the tech rode it. He says he just got done. Then I asked him why didn't the tech ride it while it was good and hot from my trip down. He just shrugs his shoulders. I asked him if the tech even bothered to check the timing anyway as I asked them to do when I dropped it off. He said timing was checked at the 5000 mile maintenance and it should be the same 900 miles later. At this point I'm really pissed and asked for the service manager. He comes out and it's almost word for word the same conversation I just had with the service advisor. He finally says that he will "no charge" my visit. He asks me if this makes me happy. I say, "NO. I still have a pinging problem." He says that is all they can do for me. Unbelieveable. Needless to say, within 40 miles of riding after leaving there, the bike is good and hot and is pinging on acceleration. I'm going to check static timing using the voltmeter method suggested by Opto. Any other suggestions would be welcome.   2k4xb12 Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 08:05 am:        Adrian, The method suggested by Opto is actually my post. My bike seems to run hotter than I think it should also and pings, but mainly on HOT days. I even rechecked my timing a couple days ago and it was dead on.   Typeone Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 09:17 am:        Aeholton, I went through that EXACT experience... all-summer-long. Had multiple dealers look at my 12S, test everything, went through lots of parts and headaches... same outcome in the end. Only thing that saved my head from exploding was that fall finally arrived, the ping went away with the cooler temps. Dreading the summer months again   Dave Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 10:44 am:        The tuber's were plagued w/pinging and my resolve was retarding the timing just a hair from spec. Shortly after Buell released a service bulletin that spec'd colder plugs. Off to check the static timing on my Uly. DAve   Odinbueller Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 06:12 pm:        Pinging is usually a timing related issue, and checking the timing can be done incorrectly very easily. Trust me, I've done it on my bike! Blake's advise about the intake leak is a good idea too, but don't get crazy with the contact cleaner, as residual getting into your intake tract will give you a false reading.   Buellistic Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 06:55 pm:        PINGING CLASS 101: You should be running highest octain you can get !! Run mine timed fast, ie: on the front cylinder the timing mark is just coming into the back of timing hole ... Stay up on the cam, ie: keep your rev's at 2500 minimum(ie:2500 to 3000 RPM) if you are pu$$y footing around(this cuts down the chances of "PINGING") ... Other wise ride like you stole it(ie: 3000 to 6000 RPM) !!! IF YOU LUG THE ENGINE WHEN IT IS HOT IT WILL "PING" PERIOD !!! The SEAL, intake manifold PN 26995-86B(this is a SPORTSTER PART NUMBER) should be replace without fail EVERY TWO YEARS or you will have problems !!! Run H-D 20W-50 Syn 3 oil in your ENGINE and TRANSMISSION and your engine will run cooler (cuts down the chances of "PINGING") This applys to "TUBE FRAME", BLAST, and XB Models !!! THIS IS NOT "BUELLschitte" !!! In BUELLing LaFayette   Aeholton Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 08:01 am:        LaFayette - With the new 2006 transmissions, Buell says to run FORMULA+ (part # 98851) in the transmission.   Buellistic Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:21 am:        Aeholton: "THANKS" for the correction up-date as this is probably BETTER than Dexron V ??? This makes for a freer(less lubricant drag) spinning trans. ??? In BUELLing LaFayette   Aeholton Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 08:17 am:        LaFayette: I don't know. For all I know it's just 10W40 with a different label on the plastic bottle. However, I do know that when I got the first service done on my Uly, they put SportTran in it. I had some difficulty finding neutral and it seemed stiffer shifting. After they changed it out with Formula+, finding neutral was no longer an issue.   Buellistic Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:02 pm:        Aeholton: Do not forget that the clutch adjustment and the way the shift lever is position for the rider also has a lot of effect on shifting/finding neutral ... In BUELLing LaFayette   Jkhawaii Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 04:05 am:        my dealer told me my air filter was causing the pinging and wanted to sell me a high flow filter.... I am canceling my extended warranty and not bringing my bike to the dealer again I would rather hear thats how they run than some bs reason   Blake Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:37 pm:        Good grief. A high flow filter would only tend to exacerbate the pinging. Good call on your part. Have you solved the pinging issue?   Jkhawaii Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 10:14 pm:        yea keep the bike moving and or cruise it for a while after extended idle. I also notice that the pinging is mostly in the first 1/4-1/2 throtle at WOT the pinging seems to go away? any one have the factory timing maps? I'm thinking at lower throtle angles timming is farther advanced for cruise fuel economy and dose not change with engine temperature   Jkhawaii Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 10:16 pm:        even when moving at freeway speeds though the bike pings when riden during the day at 1/4-1/2 throttle 83deg at about 60% humidity.   Blake Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 11:55 pm:        Sounds very much like a leak at one of the intake manifold seals. Check the integrity of the seals at the cylinder head by setting the engine at a fast idle, around 2,000 rpm, then spray contact cleaner or WD-40 all around each seal. If you hear a noticeable change in engine speed, you've identified a leak. Be careful to avoid having overspray enter the intake.   Scott_in_nh Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 06:55 pm:        propane or map gas works for checking vacuum leaks too and without the mess!   Jkhawaii Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 08:07 pm:        or brake clean   Chefa Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:15 pm:        I own a 05 xb12s and starting it has become a chore-it takes 3-5 attempts to get it going and the idle labors to get up to 1000-1100. It sounds very weak until it idles properly 3-5 minutes. After a warmup it's driven in stop and go traffic, If I get into 3rd gear, it's only to downshift into 2nd again. Yesterday in a 55 mph zone it started pinging while changing gears and accelerating. Am I not riding hard enough? I try not to baby it but traffic is miserable. Help!   Chefa Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:27 pm:        My 05 xb12s has problems starting. It really labors to warm up and reach 1000-1100. It sounds weak until it gets there. It takes 3-5 attempts to start. Also, it has started to ping when accelerated on highway driving. Most of the driving is stop and go. If I ever get into 3rd gear it's only to downshift into 2nd. Is the bike being babied and should it be driven harder?