| Author | Message | ||
     Therenardo9r |
Can anyone send me an race ecm map for my XB9r 2003 so that I can upgrade ? I currently have a stock ecm and the technoresearch Direct Link software... thanx Please send map (.blo file) to fabrice.bourrigaud@free.fr if you got it | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
American Sport Bike and H-D Buell of Vallejo are in phase two of developing Buell MAPs using the DL software. At this point there are a few issues not resolved with using DL on Buells. The Dyno time to do just one MAP is more than one customer could or would want to pay for. So we are working on some custom MAPs based on some specific configurations, such as - XB9 and XB12 with American Sport Bike Open Airbox and Micron Exhaust System. XB9 and XB12 With Buell Race Kit. ... Phase three will be to develop the above listed MAPS to be used with Pev Performance 1250 Bolt on Kit with and without heads and then a Big Bore 90 inch with Stg 3 heads RS 585V2 Cams and a 52mm TB. Give us a month or so and we will be finished with this phase and have something that can help most of the XB A/F issues. ... Terry | ||
| Al_lighton |
Fabrice, Your post brings up an interesting legal issue.... The DirectLink SW makes it possible to read maps within the ECM, and I suspect that people will trade maps with other people as time goes on. But when is a map just a map, and when is it copyrighted information that is NOT free for distribution in the way that you have requested? Buell certainly developed that Race ECM map, and spent $$$ doing it. To send the map in it's unaltered form would seem to be the same in some regard as pirating SW. But the algorithms are not being altered or distributed in any way, only the lookup tables. Is a lookup table copyrighted? If yes, how does one know it is? If one uses 4 unaltered cells of 144 cells from the table, and alters the rest, is it still copyrighted? It isn't a whole lot different conceptually if someone wrote down the configuration of a carburetor (i.e., 165 jet, with a certain needle taper, at a certain clip height, with a 25 pilot jet, with a 2.5 turn bleed screw adjustment). But is it different legally? When is a table of values SW, and when is it just a table of numbers? Ultimately, all ANY SW is is a bunch of numbers. But then again, all any book is is a bunch of words. At what point is it copyright violation to publish the same words, and when is it just using a bunch of similar words to convey the same concepts? I'm sure intellectual property lawyers could argue this stuff just about any way they wanted. Now, if someone starts with that map as a baseline point, and then tunes and develops their own map for their own configuration, at what point does it not become piracy (if it ever was)? When you bought your bike, you don't sign or agree to any licensing arrangement for the SW in your ECM that says that you don't have the right to alter that map (on your closed course competition vehicle, of course  ), so it seems reasonable that you have the right to alter the map that you paid for, just like you can alter your carburetor (on your closed course competition vehicle, of course ). And in fact, HD sells the race tuner that lets people do exactly that with their bike. But is it reasonable to upload a potentially proprietary map that you DIDN'T pay for? Not sure. When you buy a book, you can scribble in it all you want, rearrange the pages at will, do whatever you want, up until the point that you start distributing copies of it. Things change then. I spoke with Technoresearch about this very subject the other day, and asked them what their corporate lawyer had to say about it. They seemed really comfortable with the altering maps concept, but had more reservations about publishing the OEM maps as-is. It is a very interesting situation. If I knew I was on safe legal ground to do so, I would happily send you the Race ECM map. But I'm not comfortable doing so at this time. On Terry's point, mapping is a complex task. I'm reasonably convinced that someone that has mapped a few ECMs could do one start to finish (as in modifying the map you start with, not developing a map from scratch) in much less than a day on a properly equipped dyno. But the first one they ever do is going to take more than that. It is one thing to have the SW, it is another thing to know how to use it. The tuning guide I am developing in conjunction with Terry will certainly accelerate the learning for those using the SW the first time. But make no mistake, this is a complex task that shouldn't be entered into cavalierly. With the awesome power DirectLink provides comes a lot of responsibility. Without the right feedback during tuning, it is very easy to make a bike not run right. It is harder, but possible, to just blow up the engine altogether. It really isn't any different than carburetors have always been in some respects. But carburetors don't have 144 table entries for the front cylinder fuel map alone, and another 144 for the rear cylinder fuel map, and 2/3 of that for each of the front and rear spark maps. It IS a daunting task, which is why the concept of buying a map that has been developed for the combination of parts that you have a much more attractive thing to do. | ||
| Therenardo9r |
HI Al and thanks for taking much time to write back to me.. I am a computer person taking care off all aspects of computing in a Hospital, 225 PC and 18 servers all flavors colors and important databases (Sql Server and Oracle) While in all cases databases the database is owned by the software maker that designs it, the data stored is owned in all cases by the user/owner. In other words software manufacturers allow you to use the data for your own needs within the databases but does not allow you to change de database design which can be understood.. In my case I do not wish to change the database design nor the program, but, the data stored in it, of which I am by means of use the proprietor. No one could imagine a single Company in the world using software and not be able to modify the data stored in nor modify it.. On the other hand, software manufacturers can have data stored in their programs for basic use or demo, which subsequently can be changed to your likes and flavors. As to using the direct link software, it is unreal, on the other hand and by the looks of the data stored on the ecm it is abvious that the settings of the map must be changed carefully and that a race map would give enough threshold values to avoid de-tuning your engine completely to test it out, and avoid blowing it up...I could not imagine adding a ten degrees spark angle just for kicks to see what it does, nor leaning out the fuel at 4000 RPM in the same manner... It seems to me a normal thing to be able to tune your bike and change the settings, and abnormal to not be able to do so or have to pay extra ! Unless you have someone do it for you... I hope to soon be able to tune my bike myself as my Buell Dealer in Bordeaux charged me recently 302 Euros just for oil changes, rear brake pads I did not ask him to change, and a side footpeg change for which He did not even put a spring !!! My brother also works on Formula 3 (Asia) and changes the EFI maps all the time for the Mugen Honda Engine.... Hope I can soon get my bike up and running the way I would like it rather than use a 'frozen' basic map I should just stand for !! | ||
| Reepicheep |
If you loaded your data into the database you bought, then that is true. But if you bought the database prepopulated with the data, the situation changes. This is what Al is getting at. From a simple moral / ethical / respect point of view, IMHO, if you want to redistribute maps, you should start with the stock map and modify that. That way, anyone that could potentially use your map has by definition already bought it, as you can't get an XB without a stock ECM. If you want a race ECM, buy a race ECM. IMHO. The legal situation is fubar. The DCMA legislation is clearly in direct contradiction with the fair use legislation. The courts will have to work it out, and you *don't* want to be part of the test cases, on either side. It will just bleed out your time, energy, and money. | ||
| Therenardo9r |
I get your point, but having just bought hardware maybe should I just buy the map ? When you buy a computer you don't have to buy a second one to change the software, just the update.... Anyhow I have a buell xb9r with stock ecm, I have a KN filter and modified myself the exhaust by cutting it in half, bloking two of the pipes and letting one run through to make it more direct...and welded it back. (I love the looks of the Original exhaust) and love my bike alltogether !!! Even If you dont have a super original map which may be outlaw I need a more efficient map to see where I should start in order to get my bike to run better, not having a dyno in the garage !!! I only have one engine and dont wish to break it. I published my original map on http://buelltuning.free.fr/ecu.htm If Al could have a look and let me know what he thinks that would already be a good start. Thanks to anyone that can help me.. I am in France and if you guys in America can't help. In France, I for sure, won't find much help ... By for now Fabrice (Message edited by therenardo9r on January 10, 2006) | ||
| Al_lighton |
Fabrice, If Buell sold just the map, then what you propose would make perfect sense. But they don't. And no one else has the right to sell it to you either. This is not saying that you should not be able to buy or trade maps. Just not THAT particular one. You might want to reconsider publishing your OEM map on your website. You don't have a legal right to do that. It really isn't much different than publishing an MP3 there. There is an alternative if you don't have a dyno tuning center to develop a map on. Technoresearch sells a wideband O2 system that will hook directly into DirectLink. With that system, you can drive your motorcycle, collect Time correlated A/F, RPM, and Throttle position data. With that info, you can tune your bike while driving around. You'll have to come up with a way to mount the O2 sensor, as I don't think it will fit in the stock location, but I haven't tried. It just might. The wideband O2 system also outputs a narrowband signal that will run the bike, so if it does fit there, it's a go. You'll have to run a laptop likely in a backpack to collect the data. If your Technoresearch supplier can't furnish the wideband O2 system to you, I can get it for you. In time, I suspect there will be others with maps that can help you. The SW is so new, you're an early pioneer, there aren't many out there to help. I haven't really even started selling it yet, because the lack of AFV reset capability is severely limiting. We'll have that function in about a week. It hasn't slowed our tuning because we also have VDSTS to do that function, but if you don't have that capability, mapping is pointless. And of course, there is the knowledge thing. Just possessing the tool doesn't make you a competent tuner with it, any more than just buying a Stratocaster will make you play like Hendrix. Terry and I spent two full days tuning before we even started making progress on performance. The first two days were spent just learning the black box response of the ECM to changes in the tables. That is why I will be including a Direct Link tuning guide for Buells with the SW when I sell it. The situation that you are in is exactly why I haven't released it yet. It would generate too many support questions, too many tuning issues. When it's ready, I'll heartily endorse it and market it. Al | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
Hurry Al, like the wind! Just kidding. Take your time and get it right for sure. I look forward to the finished product. Charles | ||
| Therenardo9r |
Hi there and sorry for delayed answer...already wrote the answer the other day and as I had finished the computer went down... As you say Al if I buy a stratocaster I certainly wont play like hendrix... But If I have a basic fender and only play the six strings...with the stratocaster I still will have a better 6 string sound...and this is why I wanted to upload the race ecu map to begin with....the real tune up on a dyno may come far later...I will probably buy a good map from you when the time comes...!!! Anyhow the dealer here isn't any good everything he touches is simply badly done... and having the vdsts software and the direct link has already helped me a lot, I downloaded the latest versions with I installed without a glitch, I will soon have another direct link key and download a race ecm map from another bike check it out and upload it to mine... In any case better than buying a race ecm in France for about 350 Euros...not counting the time the dealer will charge me to do the job ...and not even resetting the TPS right... A bit tough my dealer around here... thank you again for all your help and explaination towards tuning the bike... |
