| Author | Message | ||
     Opto |
Ralph, Thanks for bothering to take the time to post. You are absolutely correct that changing things from standard can harm a motor. You may be assuming that the Buell ECM is like most others you have come across, but it isn't. It monitors the O2 sensor during cruise and will bump the fuel up or down according to the O2 sensor readings in closed loop. On the next restart it will apply the overall changes to open and closed loop operation and monitor closed-loop operation again. It has no ambient pressure sensor and cannot tell if you are at high or low altitude, but if given say 10 mins in closed-loop conditions it will readjust for the next restart. Same thing, it will automatically adjust for non-standard mufflers or aircleaners, just the fuel curve may not be optimimum, but it won't be engine-damaging unless an extreme design of muffler/pipe has been fitted. If there's one thing Buell could do to make me happier as a Buell owner it would be to let us all know how the ECM works - instead of all of us collecting miscellaneous tidbits of data, it's like watching paint dry and I've been doing it for 2 years...the bottom line is we like to know how our bikes work and how the ecm is programmed to behave. | ||
| Steve_larson |
Blake: I am responding friendly here to both you and Ralf, but I see people thinking that I am "not informing customers" of what exhaust products do. In fact, I am trying desperately to get the correct information across. Ralf makes a good point, but this misses the discussion. Ralf is talking about an exhaust AND an intake change. That is NOT what I am talking about, and have not been talking about. Exhaust is being lumped in with intake, and these are VERY different topics. The post incorrectly equates my comments regrading exhausts alone, to his multiple change of exhaust and intake, then refers to this as "changing a muffler". This is simply incorrect and needs to be pointed out and rectified, as it leads to your comments about my "mis-informing" consumers. Those are TWO changes, one of which has very serious effects on the intake charge, and thus the internal temperature of the motor. These two topics HAVE to stay separate, as they have very different effects on the point of this discussion, which is "blowing" a motor. Changing a muffler is changing a muffler. Changing the intake is NOT changing a muffler. And this is not "semantics", these are a very different pair of changes, and how they relate to the operation of a motor are incredibly different. Back to my statement which I am still trying to make clear here. The exhaust cannot, and will not, create the damage you or anyone else here speaks of to a stock motor. Please, and I say this in all friendliness, there has to be some physical science applied to the discussion here. Let me try some examples to get the idea across: Remove the airbox. Alter the fuel injection system, or add nitrous to the intake. Pick your intake change, the point being made here is the same. Any and all of these can cause serious damage to the internals of the cylinder... even with a stock exhaust, as they relate to the temperature at the piston. But these are intake issues! They relate directly to the internal physics of the engine. This has nothing to do with the exhaust which routes spent gas to the rear of the machine. Scenario 2: Take the stock bike, remove the muffler and run it, you will NOT blow the motor. Does not happen, cannot happen, will not happen. Not in any scenario of any real world situation of any stock Buell motorcycle ever made. If anybody wishes to test this, let me know and I will arrange a bike. We can remove the muffler and run it all you want, nothing will happen. That is what I have been saying, that is what I am trying to get across to the readers here. The exhaust pipe does not alter the intake temperature on a stock bike at the piston by any factor that would result in any of the scary scenario's painted here. As I stated, a burnt exhaust valve is about the most "scary" scenario I can think of running a stock Buell with NO exhaust at all, and this would take quite a bit of time to achieve, if you could. There are two issues on the table here, and this thread has to understand "which" one is doing "what" to the end result. I am not trying to "mis-inform" anybody, I am trying hard to get readers to understand what different parts do to the different aspects of the motor. Steve Larson Micron Exhaust 1-888-963-1212 (Message edited by steve_larson on January 07, 2006) | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
Opto you have a message.... I keep on hearing about watch out for lean, lean, lean. .. I have a WEGO II (A/F read-out) on my ULY and have been running it for the last few weeks. ...None of you would believe how lean these run in closed loop. And where closed loop is when you are going down the road. On my STOCK ULY I have seen 14.5 thru 16.1 in cruse. Yes if you roll it on it gets back to a safe 13.5 or so? My issue with what I see posted concerns the roll-on dyno data and statements that the Race ECM works with all exhaust systems. Nothing works with everything and just looking at the WOT roll-on data does not give the best picture of how well the bike will perform at all times . ... Roll-ons will always be in "open loop" and I keep seeing rich conditions at 100% tp and low to mid RPM range, unless someone has re-tuned the bike some how. Serious power and ride-ability is a good transition between open and closed as well as the A/F curve during a roll-on at 60%,80% and 100% TP. ... Terry ) | ||
| Blake |
Steve, Changing the exhaust tract can significantly improve/increase the intake charge (air mass) and thus the volumetric efficiency of an engine. This is exactly what performance exhaust systems are designed to do. So contrary to your assertion, changing just the exhaust tract alone can indeed cause serious problems due to hotter, over-lean combustion coupled with increased power output. Such problems may even manifest as broken piston rings, holed pistons, burned valves and/or a whole host of other very serious problems. It is that simple. I also feel it is horribly disingenuous to assume that anyone would invest in an expensive high performance exhaust system but fail to make appropriate modifications to the intake tract as well. That said, the effect of high performance exhaust tract modifications, especially for a Buell motorcycle, are MUCH more significant than any intake tract modification. | ||
| Steve_larson |
Blake: I am sorry, but you are simply incorrect, and are really moving off on some unsubstantiated tangents. Please, you are going to have to show us, who make the exhaust, how it is that an aftermarket race muffler is having "massive" changes to the "volumetric efficiency" of an engine. We don't know it, and we make the exhausts...? First, modern performance motorcycles are NOT hindered by OEM mufflers anymore. In the early 1970's, you could add a bunch of flow to an engine with a muffler swap. Sorry, but in todays world, engineers simply do not leave that much behind. Proof? How about the fact that installing a race slip-on to a Buell results in approx. a 3-5 hp gain to an 90 hp curve, and that is only if you can get the slip-on built correctly. Many slip-ons are just trading HP back and forth on the curve. Does anybody here think that adding 3-5 hp to a 90HP motor is a massive change to the volumetric efficiency of the engine? What is the difference in HP from 32 degree intake air and 110 degree intake air? I can assure you, it is bigger then 3 hp. So are you worried about riding on a 50 degree night with your stock exhaust? Has the volumetric efficiency of the motor gone "off the scale" for "serious problems" such as you describe? Blake, the theory is correct, but the model you are using is not real. You are describing some incredibly extreme situation where a motor with 90 potential HP of engineering is putting out 15 hp due to the muffler being restrictive, which of course would be a huge change if you open up the muffler. You are correct in this extreme fantasy model, but a real Buell is not anywhere near this situation. And moreover, you do not even address the workings of a modern FI system and its relationship to the engine. The additional volume of flow from a muffler alone on a modern motorcycle is NOT capable of any excessive lean condition that would hurt a modern motor, I do not know how to tell you any more clearly that this is how it is. As I said, I am willing to get a stock Buell for you, run a race muffler as long as you wish, and we can test anything you want all day long. I can assure you that your reasoning, although "scary" to read, is NOT able to stand up to reality. Regarding my "disingenuous" nature, I will not even go there since I am not "disingenuous" at all, but simply unable to convince you of how a modern motor works. But I do not appreciate your taking this approach to our conversation, let's not make this personal. The reasoning put forth in your post for a modern motorcycle engine is simply incorrect, but until we get to understanding the workings of the intake and exhaust systems, beating the topic is pointless. If anybody out there wishes to get the intake vs. cylinder temp vs. exhaust topic sorted for the members, please feel free to do so, my fingers are tired. Let the fun continue...  Steve Larson Micron Exhaust (Message edited by steve_larson on January 08, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Steve, You seem to think that the only portion of the power curve that is consequential or pertinent concerning combustion characteristics is that portion which is at or near peak HP. The simple fact is that an aftermarket muffler can actually diminish top end performance while improving mid-range significantly, on the order of 15% or more. Where do you think that extra 15% comes from if not improved volumetric efficiency? Pretending that an extra 15% power output won't lead to a lean running engine is extremely dangerous. Do you understand how during the intake/exhaust valve overlap event the negative exhaust tract pressure wave arriving at the exhaust valve significantly improves volumetric efficiency? Do you understand that an open exhaust is a horribly inefficient configuration? Do you understand that ducting is required to take advantage of the energy stored in the form of exhaust pressure pulses/waves? Do you understand that the specific configuration of that ducting will determine how well and where in the power curve the engine benefits from the exhaust tract's negative pressure pulses? If you do understand all the above, then your posts above make no sense as they are contradictory. If you don't understand the above, then your understanding of the "science" could use some improvement. "The additional volume of flow from a muffler alone on a modern motorcycle is NOT capable of any excessive lean condition that would hurt a modern motor." Yes it absolutely is. Leaner running than stock can lead to detonation which can lead to melted pistons and/or broken rings. This doesn't need to happen at WOT or anything even near it. Detonation is the culprit and it is the result of a hot overly lean mixture. That overly lean mixture can result from the addition of a high performance exhaust system. You see Steve, in addition to the above considerations, in the real world stuff like carbon and other combustion chamber deposits can accumulate, fuel grades can be less than perfect, and engines can get hot. When that happens, detonation is licking its lips waiting to pounce. Add 10% more air charge with no compensation in added fuel charge and you are looking at serious trouble. Detonation. Holed pistons. Broken ring lands. Broken rings. In the real world where not everything is shiny new and perfect all the time. Suggest you back off. You aren't doing yourself any favors proclaiming yourself the irrefutable expert on this topic and demanding proof when those with opposing views disagree with you. | ||
| Surveyor |
Should'nt this be taking place on the KV.....? Sorry I couldn't resist. | ||
| Schmitty |
I find it funny that Buell warranties can be denied on account of exhaust systems, but how many Harleys do you see with stock exhausts. I know alot of guys with Harleys, and not a one has a stock exhaust, and they don't have a problem getting anything warrantied. I think what needs to be understood here, and it has been said before, is that much of this problem lies with the dealer. If your dealer doesn't give a rat's a** about Buell or Buell sales and service, they are going to be a prick. They don't make a fraction of the money on these as they do on the Big Twins so they would just rather not deal with it. | ||
| Steve_larson |
Blake: I still think we are NOT talking about the same things here. For one set of test results, let's see if we can get everyone on this forum, who all have probably owned multiple performance motorcycles, to give their "real world" results here. Everybody who has ever installed a slip-on to a motorcycle of the past 15 years, with no other mods, and "melted pistons, holed pistons, broken ring lands or broken rings" as a result, please respond and give us the details. Sorry, the topic in this thread does not count, he had intake mods that obviously made the engine leaner. I agree with everything you are saying as a fact of a certain theoretical situation, but a slip-on to the Buell is not anything of the example you are using. Again, we are simply not speaking of the same things here. Where are the FI and O2 monitoring systems in the examples you give? Blake, we are talking about a slip-on to a stock motorcycle. And please relax on the "attacks", I am not an enemy of the Buell rider. But we have to keep the reality of an engines response to a slip-on separate from theoretical models that result in excessive carnage. While we wait for the results of the "informal" poll, the only solution here is to test, and post the results. This discussion is all about a D&D slip-on, or any race style slip-on, to a stock Buell motorcycle, and the effect it has on the stock fuel curve. Can we agree on that? How would you like to test this so that you can been assured of the end result? I will be happy to work to get this done, and assist everybody here with understanding just what a race slip-on does, and does not do to the Buell. That should put the "nail" in the coffin, and everybody can go back reading about suspension upgrades. Let me add something else. Micron DOES NOT MAKE OR OFFER a race slip-on for the Buell. There is a cost advantage, and that is something as a company we might want to re-consider in the future, but I am not trying to "save" anything for our company here. And this is not to say anybody else does not like slip-ons or want to build them, but please, everybody keep the "Micron is worried about their sales" out of the discussion, we don't have any slip-on sales to lose. Let me know how you would like me to do this, so I can get it done and show you the results. Steve Larson Micron Exhaust | ||
| Hogs |
HEy ALL, Not sure IF this is what ya all are talking about or not< lets say IF on a Stock Harley as that is all I really know about with exhaust, IF you put any say race or performance exhaust on a stocker with a CARB... not fuel injected, One has to reject the carb this I know, So will the stock Buell fuel injection system after a 10 min. or so ride and above 3200 rpms, will the Buell make the changes for the exhaust, more fuel, as on a carb one has to rejet for this, IF not then would the buell not run lean abit..?? | ||
| Medic_2512 |
Buell customer service might be better now, but before the XB line of motorcycles they were the laughing stock of the industry. I know i had an X1 for 3 years and on several occasions it spent over 3 months in the shop and problably over 30 total. And even with the XB line now i can still tell you more bad stories than good stories about Buell. This topic about the aftermarket muffler causing the piston ring to break it total BS. Its just a reason for Buell and the dealer to get out of repairing a bike period. Do you know how many HD i`ve seen with staight pipes getting warranty work when i was taking my Buell in at the dealer? Lots, or what about the time my belt broke with only 900miles on my 04 XB12 and the service manager told me it was caused the extra HP the bike was putting out from the Buell Race air filter and Buell was doing me a favor by honoring the warranty this time but i was exempt from futher warrantied repairs on the drive belt. What have i learned after owning Buells for 10 years? The bikes break alot and the dealer and Buell corp never want to be responsible for fixing it. | ||
| Medic_2512 |
Steve Larson, i still own two Buells which i still love. But also i own several other brands and i don`t think Buells are the greatest bikes ever made, not even in the top ten. Alot of people on this site (like Blake) drink the Buell coolaid and think Buell is the greatest bike and Buell corp is the most advanced company making bikes. Just so you know where some of these people are coming from. As far as the exhaust topic i agree with you 100%. Many people on this site also like to attack manufactures that bring new products into the market. So be prepared. Keep up the good work! | ||
| Dana P. |
Don't start with the Buell Koolaid crap. | ||
| Nasty73z |
I have not had that flavor before! Is it any good? Where can I find some? | ||
| Crusty |
Nasty; talk to Daves. He'll be happy to set you up will all you want. Medic; I've had nothing but good luck with Buell's Customer Service. Most (but not all) of the Harley Dealers have poor attitudes, but Buell C.S. has helped me out a number of times. Their biggest flaw is that they have to back the dealers' decisions; and most dealers think of Buells as "Squid bikes". Hell, I just bought a new XB12X and the salesman told me, "No burnouts or wheelies for the first 500 miles". They automatically assume that anyone who'd buy a Buell will beat the crap out of it, so when a problem occurs, it's obviously the rider's fault. However, Buell stands behind their product one hell of a lot better than either Honda or BMW stand behind their products. And Honda has the reputation for having great Customer Service, while BMW has the reputation for reliable products. Both are false perceptions. One quick story (I have several): In May of 1999, I was returning home to Massachusetts from Springfield,IL, when the front isolator mount broke on my '98 S3-T. All dealers were jammed with Service work, and booked up for months. I called Buell C.S. and explained my situation, and expressed my disappointment that I wouldn't be able to ride to Homecoming the following week. I was told, "You'll be at Homecoming, if I have to come out there and bring you back myself." Less than six hours later, my bike was fixed and I was riding it. I, personally, have never seen ANY manufacturer stand behind their product like Buell does. | ||
| Medic_2512 |
Bikes are machines and all of them do break, but its how the manufactures and dealers respond to the repairs and warranty work. Thats what really important. Their are great Buell dealers out their, like Daves and our sponsors, but they are few and far between. Last year my friend had to have what he thought was the latest greatest fastest thing, the new ZX10, one of the first US models. After about 2 weeks while washing the front wheel he thought he saw a small crack. The dealer wasn`t sure if it was just the powercoating or a crack, so they picked up the phone and contacted Kawasaki which immediately x-rayed and found lots of problems. They then next day aired a complete new front wheel assembly. At the same time lots of other ZX10 owner had similiar problems which was corrected by replacing almost all of the front wheels on US ZX10. Nothing special, it was a problem and Kawasaki stepped up and corrected it quickly and efficiantly as it should have. No excuses that the rider caused it. When i had motor problems with my X1 the dealer said the problems were due to the synthetic oil that i was using. Which happend to be HD Synthetic which they said wasn`t approved for Buells. Another great example of Buell customer service verse Kawasaki customer service. | ||
| Blake |
The Buell bashers coven and related topics can be found on another web site. Suggest you go find it and leave this discussion board in peace. | ||
| Surveyor |
No first amendment here then.....? | ||
| Skully |
Let's get back on topic. Blake - In one sentence, can you list what your main disagreement is with what Steve Larson is saying? If you will do that he will perform tests for us. Keith | ||
| Medic_2512 |
I`m no Buell basher. In fact i currently own an X1 and an XB12 which i ride all the time. I also think the XB line is one of the best looking bikes out there. Also i`m looking for a S1 in black or red if anyone has one for sale. I just tell it like it is and i have found that Buell dealers and their customer service is the worst by far. When it comes to performance Buell is at the back of the pack of current sportbikes. | ||
| Crusty |
Medic, you've been dealing with a d*ckhead dealer. There are a lot of bad dealers out there. Buell has never, to my knowledge, disapproved of H-D oil whether Mineral or synthetic. It's not fair to blame the factory for the actions of a moronic dealership. As far as performance goes, please define what you mean by that term. Buells handle superbly, make good, usable power throughout the RPM band and bring a smile to my face whenever I ride mine. In any real world riding situation, they hold their own with most bikes. They also get better gas mileage than most comparable bikes. Is ease of maintenance a factor in your definition of performance? I find it interesting that people are quick to condemn Buell's "performance", when it excels in so many areas. | ||
| Dana P. |
Medic you are comparing wheels from another company to your Buells engine failure. How about a better comparison like,Buell found that they were having bearing failure in there wheels and they recalled all 2003 wheels. Or lets go back a couple years to the Tuber era and they found that they had rear shock problems.... did you not get a new shock?? I bet you did among other things like front exhaust for 2000 and older tubers. As far as your oil problem Buell didn't do that to you your dealer did.Buell does except HD syn. There must be some other reason they denied your claim. Now I know they are not perfect but they go off of what the dealer tells them. I've worked in a Honda,Kawi,Suzuki,etc shop and seen my share of wild stuff in the brief couple years I was there that I thought was unfair to the customer.I guess you could say these problems you see with Buell is at Honda at Yamaha,and so on and so on. | ||
| Jerseyguy |
"Many people on this site also like to attack manufactures that bring new products into the market." I don't agree with this statement. I do think that the following 2 items are true: 1) When someone posts about his new product and makes extravagant claims about how good it is without any real evidence to support his claims, he will come under intense scrutiny. 2) When someone tries to sell a product here without becoming a sponsor of this site, they will be chastised for not following the BBS's rules. | ||
| Blake |
Keith, No. No testing by Steve or anyone else would ever convince me to tell my fellow Buell enthusiasts that they need never ever be concerned about possible detrimental effects introduced by a performance exhaust system. My position is that the addition of a performance exhaust in and of itself can lead to leaner mixtures which in turn can lead to detonation which in turn can lead to engine failure. Steve's position is that Buell engines have enough of a built-in safety factor to protect against detonation, that the added leanness introduced by a performance exhaust is of no consequence. Forget about getting a tank of inferior gasoline, forget about the buildup of combustion chamber deposits, forget about the tolerances in setting the ignition timing, forget about riding hard adn fast in extreme temperatures, forget about the effect of mechanical tolerances on compression ratio, forget about what happens when an intake seal develops a leak... all those very real factors come into play in the real world. Will an engine absolutely suffer detonation and failure if it is fitted with a performance exhaust? In most cases, probably not. But I would never ever tell folks they need not be concerned about the issue. Because it can happen, and they darn well should be concerned about the issue, and anyone who seeks to tell the folks here differently is not looking out for their best interests. Anyone here ever have a lock stock Buell suffer from detonation? I have! Had an intake leak develop on my '00 Cyclone and it wasn't even stock. It had a #45 slow jet in the carb and an enriched idle circuit setting. Everything else was stock. If I had not noticed the problem, I could have blown the engine. If I'd had an aftermarket exhaust that was nice and loud, I could have easily missed noticing the detonation and ended up blowing the engine. (Message edited by blake on January 09, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
Medic, Regardless of what you claim to be, I can only go by what I read here, and here in my view you are a Buell basher who contributes little to nothing in the way of constructive content. Prove me wrong, please. | ||
| Blake |
And Medic, As far as your claim to be "telling it like it is." You certainly are/do not. Contradictory examples to your naysaying Buell bashings abound on this site. Buell dealers and the Buell factory folks have both gone the extra mile too many times in helping folks sort out problems for your view of them to be valid. Your statement concerning the performance of Buells, again off topic here in this thread, is clearly illustrative of your agenda here, it is not constructive, it is simply Buell bashing trolling. That said, if peak HP and top speed are the gages that you use to measure the performance of a sport bike, then there are plenty of other sport bikes that fall in behind a Buell. However, most of us measure performance a bit less myopically to be sure. We're not so simple-minded as to consider HP/cc as the only measure of engine performance. | ||
| Blake |
Surveyor, "No first amendment here then.....?" Absolutely not. Why would you think there was? This is not the public square. This is a Buell enthusiasts' discussion board. If anyone here is unsure about what is and what is not acceptable content to post here, please see the latest version of our user policy...
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| Blake |
Back on topic. I'd like to add that from what I've seen, the best high performance exhaust may well be the Micron full system as demonstrated recently by American Sport Bike, but it darn sure does require some significant EFI augmentation to realize its full potential, and it isn't cheap. The engineer in me sure does like the variable cross section geometry Micron employed. That is absolutely 100% valid engineering theory put into actual practice. The best slip-on? Who knows, and it depends on what you are looking for, meaning big top end, or beefy mid-range, or... | ||
| M1combat |
I run a Force pipe on an XB12R. I have chopped the airbox up and I run a K&N filter. The power curve and the Fuell curve required for this pipe (and intake  ) are VERY different from what is required when the bike is stock. Just to give you an idea... At 2500RPM I remove 32% fuel with a PCIII. At 4000 I add 36%. This is with the AFV settled at 3000 before dyno tuning. The fuel curve is FLAT at 14:1 (never going over 14.1 or below 13.9) from 2200-6000 RPM at WOT. If I settled the AFV at 2500 (say, while cruising around town) and then went WOT the bike would be DANGEROUSLY lean from about 3K through about 5K. What would happen is the bike would remove the 32% fuel for me in closed loop. As I went to WOT the bike would enter open loop and would use what it expects a stock exhaust/intake etc would need all the way to redline. At 3500RPM I would be about 50-60% below what I need for fuel. By 6000 I would be back to only getting about 25% fewer ms of PW than I need... 25%. The bike seems to like to tune itself for somewhere around 17:1... Would it be dangerous to remove 25% of my fuel if the ECM is already shooting for 17:1? I think so, but I'm not a professional either . | ||
| Surveyor |
This is a Buell enthusiasts' discussion board Discussion;- an examination by argument written or spoken - Oxford English Dictionary Argument;- an exchange of views (contrary) -Oxford English Dictionary If a member expresses a 'contrary view' and this results in his being told by the moderator to go find another site then I wonder if this is in fact a "discussion board" I have owned almost a hundred bikes, some were better than others, but none were above constructive criticism, and while my Firebolt is one of the finest bikes I've owned it's not above mine or anyone else's criticism. The successful development of any product is at least to some extent dependant on constructive criticism and I doubt that even Eric would welcome a forum which prohibited any critical assesment of his bikes. Blake, with all due respect, I think you owe medic an apology. (Message edited by surveyor on January 09, 2006) |
