| Author | Message | ||
     Chadhargis |
To answer your question, you first have to decide what you want to accomplish. Do you want a louder bike? A few more HP? Less weight? etc... From there you can begin to research your options. I was thinking about a Buell Race Kit, but decided to wait until the warm weather gets here and I get to know the bike a bit better. I'm finding that my bike is plenty fast in every situation except for an outright drag race or passing multiple cars and to get the HP I'd want in those situations, I'd need to do more than just add a muffler and change the ECU. The XB motor is no powerhouse, but it's not as bad as I thought. I find myself riding my brakes most of the time because I get behind slow riders or drivers. When I get an open road, the bike is more than capable. | ||
| Blackbelt |
just make sure to put your stock exhaust back on the bike before you go to a dealership.. then you will be fine.. cause they will not have any reason to falsify a thing, cause to their knowledge you don't have an aftermarket exhaust. that is my 2 Cents.... | ||
| Steve_larson |
Daves: All of this is said with the utmost in respect, but I have to respond to what is in our view a very incorrect response that might be seen as trying to "scare" Buell owners. We are new to the Buell motorcycle world, but not to just about every other form of performance engineering. And I am very serious when I say that we have been selling exhausts, 10's of thousands of them, and have NEVER heard of a single incident like this with any manufacturer. And we are talking about machines that would scare most riders with the power they produce. To the issue of "does an exhaust void a warranty" we still say is "no", unless somebody can demonstrate how an exhaust system is connected to the integrity a piston ring? Or for that matter, demonstrate that the exhaust is any part of the warranty of the motorcycle besides those things directly connected to the exhaust? Daves, are you saying that every Midas muffler sold voids the warranty of every aspect of the car it was installed on? No, it does not. If the muffler causes a problem that was not the fault of the manufacturer, then the warranty can be denied on that issue. No other part of the warranty is "voided". This is what I stated, and it is what we have found to be true in every aspect of our business from our Automotive division all the way to our Motorcycle products division. So I stand by my statement that the "cause and effect" has to be demonstrated for warranty to be denied. It is not a "blanket" situation unless the vehicle is used in a manner outside of warranty (like racing), which is specifically noted in all warranty documents we have ever seen. Back to the situation you note. Something is missing in this discussion, since it impossible to believe that an exhaust broke a piston ring; they do not have any contact. If anything, a free flowing exhaust will lean a motor, but breaking a piston ring is simply not something that happens due to an exhaust. Not ours or anybody else's. An exhaust system moves the spent gas from the motor away from the machine, that is all. An exhaust pipe has nothing to do with the rear tire. The exhaust system has nothing to do with the seat. The exhaust system has nothing to do with the mirror. Worst case might be a burnt exhaust valve if you ran no exhaust at all, that is about all the exhaust can do to your motor by itself. Run your engine without oil and the results will be known; but the exhaust, open or not, has nothing to do with it. That is what I was stating, and that is what I stand behind. Saying that an exhaust was the reason for the situation you describe cannot be correct in everything we know. The intake decides the heat of the motor, not the exhaust. We sell exhausts; please do not confuse or combine poorly managed fuel situations with exhaust parts. I suspect that there are many people on this forum with exhaust mods to their Buell's, and I doubt very many of them have broken piston rings. So a single incident (granted one which I have no specific knowledge of), without the detail of why the motor did what it did, leads me to believe that Buell denied this claim based on something else. Lastly, how many Fat Boys, Wide Glides and Dyna's do you see out there with stock exhausts? Do you really think every one of them is without any warranty? That Harley Davidson has denied every warranty issue on every one of these machines because they have a V&H pipe on them? Nothing needs to be falsified, but if the product installed can be shown to be the "cause" of the failure, then the manufacturer has a reason to deny warranty. But an exhaust installed and tuned correctly will have virtually no ill effects on any motor, and thus no effect on the warranty aspects of the motorcycle. Again, please understand that all my response is with the highest regard for your comments, but we and our experience of building and selling 10's of 1000's of exhaust systems simply do not agree with your statements. Steve Larson Micron Exhaust 1-888-963-1212 | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
It's all about common sense as we sell both H-D and Buell performance and aftermarket parts and stand behind what a customer buys and has installed by us. So if we do something that causes the bike to run lean and it holes a piston that's on us. But if a customer installs a PC and we do not dyno the bike that would be on them. Dave I didn't mean to get this personal and am sorry if my post offended anyone. I also have an issue when the selling dealer adds the cost of Performance parts and an extended warranty in the deal, if they know that their warranty adminstrator is going to try and deny claim because of the parts delivered on the bike. ... Again I am Sorry. ... Terry | ||
| Dana P. |
Steve like you have said you know exhaust and you are "NEW" to Buell. They can and do void warranty's. I have seen it many time on the board as a member of 6 years. Also have know someone here that has had a lawsuit over it and it turned into a battle for 3 years. | ||
| Daves |
The case I was referring to the issue was the lean condition caused the ring to break? I am not a tech. I am just saying what the reason was for denying the warranty claim. So, if you change the exhaust,which leans the motor out too much your warranty can be denied. Like I said, I know that as a fact. Of course if you put fuel mgmt stuff on it,even though you tune it correctly it just gives more reason for the warranty on the engine to be void. Yes, it will make your bike run better but if you are concerned about your warranty then just wait until it's over. Buell and every other make out there warrants their products "as they leave the factory" and should not be under such obligation if the owner goes changing a bunch of stuff. Should they? This is not intended to "scare" anyone but to say that by letter of the warranty what I am saying isn't true,well just isn't true. I never said that the exhaust would void the whole warranty( like the seat or mirrors) but it may void the engine warranty. This is right out of the owners manual and I quote, "The use of any non-standard parts, including mufflers, may void your warranty according to the terms of the warranty. Buell dealers are independently owned and operated and may sell parts and accessories from manufacturers other than Buell. Therefore you should understand that we(Buell) are not and cannot be responsible for the quality,suitability or safety of any non-Buell part,accessory or design modification including labor,which may be sold and/or installed by our dealers." That is in every single one of our owners manuals. | ||
| Perry |
Isn't it true that the servicing dealer bills the factory for warrantee services rendered? If so, why would they be so inclined to deny the warranty service? Or does the servicing dealer end up eating costs somehow for warranty work? Just curious... | ||
| Steve_larson |
I understand that Buell's are different, and yes, I do see that you as owners seem to have some very different situations with your manufacturer. That is something for you as owners to decide on with your purchasing decisions. I am only sorry to hear in threads that so many Buell owners say that they are treated the way they are. But if Buell is really "beating up" its customers (if that is truly the case) over "non-related issues", that would not seem like a good way to keep customers buying...? Back to the thread: What we are saying is that to a stock motor, removing the muffler completely (running with no muffler at all), would at worst result in a burnt exhaust valve after quite a bit of use. There is almost no physical way that a muffler could create any situation that would break a piston ring, much less do anything else. Regarding warranty, I could not be in more agreement. "May" is the key word here, and "may" is the basis for "cause and effect". The warranty you are quoting here supports my comments completely. If your crankshaft fails, they are going to have a tough time blaming the exhaust. If the oil pump, gearbox shift drum or ECU fails, it is going to be very difficult to blame the exhaust. If the exhaust valve is burned up, there is probably a case. But beyond this, the "cause and effect" of the exhaust pipe alone is extremely tenuous. The "letter" of the warranty is "may", and this is what owners of Buell motorcycles, and the Buell corporation, have to work out for themselves. Sounds like other manufacturers have a different way of interpreting and handling the use of the term "may". Steve Larson Micron Exhaust 1-888-963-1212 | ||
| Diablobrian |
Buell is not the only company that has voided warrenties just because of an aftermarket pipe. I had a friend with an 03 gsxr 1000 that had his shift shaft(hollow for weight savings) break. The dealership voided warrenty based on a yoshimura pipe. The warrenties usually have language in them that allows the manufacturer the option of voiding the warrenty if the vehicle is modified. The only thing they have to prove is the modification, not the cause and effect. Most manufacturers can will and DO void warrenties at the whim of the dealer or warrenty administrator. They pay their lawyers a great deal of money to assure that they can do this. This was originally instituted to avoid paying warrenty claims on race vehicles, it has been expanded because of the potential savings in warrenty work is HUGE. If you could pin them down on this the companies would probably say it's just business. Fortunately there are some dealers out there that will work with you in good faith. | ||
| Blake |
Uh, back to the thread would be to post something helpful for it author. Steve, The described approach to warranty issues is NOT in any way unique to Buell. Any performance enhancing product may void a warranty, period. Can you really not imagine how a leaner/hotter running engine that is putting out significantly more power than stock could result in a broken piston ring? I sure can. It's pretty simple, if you modify your bike to achieve improved performance, you risk your warranty coverage. That is true for any/all makes of motorcycle. | ||
| Steve_larson |
Blake, honestly I hear what you are saying, but I am trying to say that we are an exhaust company, and this is what we do for a living. Day in, and day out, for everything from World Superbikes to bolt on exhausts for a Buell. Installing a D&D muffler cannot break a piston ring. Nor can a Drummer, nor can a Force, nor can a Micron. Piston rings and exhaust pipes are not related; the installation cannot create any situation on a stock bike that could do anything like this, or anything beyond a hot exhaust valve. "Other" parts or situations might, those are intake and "other" questions... I think we have all covered this topic, we are way off the basis of the thread and running in circles. I appreciate all the comments, I hold no ill will to anyone, but myself included we are beating a dead horse now. It is probably best to just go out and drink a beer to finish the day. So that is where I am headed! Anybody in the Chicago area up for a cold one...?  Steve Larson Micron Exhaust 1-888-963-1212 | ||
| Dana P. |
Come to Racine Wi. Steve and I'll buy 1 or 2 at my Bar. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
I'm in the position here of agreeing with everyone. Steve, you are absolutely correct that a exhaust system cannot break an engine. However, unless there is a section in the United States Uniform Commercial Code (I.E. THE LAW) that says otherwise, a manufacturer can write whatever stipulations they want into the warranty. If they say that installing an aftermarket pipe on the bike voids the warranty, and that stipulation does not violate the law, then thats the end of the story. Back to the topic: I was in the happy position on January 2nd to enjoy some unseasonably warm weather. It got up to 65 degrees here in Indy! I went riding with a buddy of mine from work that has a CBR 600 F4i. He was COMPLETELY blown away by the sound of my Micron Exhaust and commented on it repeatedly. I am well pleased with this exhaust and I am certain it is one of the best, if not THE best option for the Buell. Just remember, if you buy this pipe, you will also need to get the Race ECM and the Race filter. | ||
| Medic_2512 |
The whole voiding the warranty over exhaust parts is a way for Buell to get out of honoring the warranty period. Thats why i never liked the Drummer Exhaust, because it modifies the stock pipe and the dealer will see that and then they`ll have an excuse not to honor warranty repairs. You better off taking you aftermarket muffler off, nad then putting the stock one on for trips back to the dealer. I`m not sure how it works at all Buells dealers but the dealer i use only pays their techs 1/2 the time in terms of labor rate to repair warranty work. So the techs and the dealers don`t like to do repairs under warranty cause their only getting paid 1/2 of the normal rate. This is a very sensitive topic for me, I can tell story after story about how Buell didn`t want to repair my X1 with 500 miles after i purchased the Extended Warranty for an extra $1200. The dealer and Buell Corp blamed problems from not starting to drive belts breaking to the shock leaking on account of Buell race airfilter that THEY installed. When it comes to warranty repairs don`t trust Buell! | ||
| Buellish0 |
hey dana !!!!!!!! is your bike still going to w.o.w i'd like to see it up close  | ||
| Dana P. |
Nope it won't be there now sorry to say. The fella that painted it won't be able to do the show so that screwed things up. He tremendously busy with a car right now that is taking huge priority and its causing him time away from other priorities. | ||
| Ralf |
since none of you know me, and have no reason to believe me, I don't know why I bother to comment but here goes. If the bike is marginally lean, and most modern bikes are for emissions requirements and if the exhaust and intake are ridiculously restrictive, again most are because of noise requirements, then improving the airflow with a K&N and a free flow exhaust is going to make the engine run leaner. Lean engines can crack ring lands or burn pistons or valves and severe engine damage can result from "changing a muffler". i cringe every time I read that someone has changed exhaust and kept the stock ECM. Unless you run full power on a dyno with A/F measurement you are taking a risk of engine damage. Unless you can trust your particular dealer you are at risk of having a warranty battle on your hands if engine damage occurs. GETTING AWAY with doing something stupid doesn't mean it wasn't stupid. love to all, your rocket surgeon Buell buddy with 40 years of piston, industrial, gas turbine, afterburner and hypersonic combustion experience, ralfy | ||
| Jscott |
FYI - Micron's press release regarding the Formula USA Pro Thunderbike National Championship. http://news.micronexhaust.com/news.php/93 | ||
| Steve_larson |
Said now as a multiple "unusual" motorcycle owner, and not as any voice of Micron or the company I work for, and I will bury this comment deep in this thread to keep my comments out of the way: Honestly guys, I am stunned by all of your comments about how the Buell company treats you, but I keep reading over and over that it is true. You buy a premium priced product compared to the competition and this is how they return the favor? Somehow you guys have to "band" together and get some sort of resolution with your manufacturer, Target and Wal-Mart seem to have better customer relations and they are selling things as cheap as they can! Just my 2 pennies! Steve (Message edited by steve_larson on January 06, 2006) | ||
| Daves |
And I have seen Buell go way above and beyond the call of duty on many,many occasions to keep owners happy. As a matter of fact I have some parts coming in early next week to rectify an issue that Buell had nothing to do with. "GETTING AWAY with doing something stupid doesn't mean it wasn't stupid" I love that! Can I use it Ralf? | ||
| Smoothrod |
Steve I’m new to Buell also but not new to •••••• customer service. See I have two red headed step children. I have a 2004 VRCB V-rod and just 3 days ago I bought my wife a 03 XB9S. So now I have two bikes that my local dealer one knows nothing about two doesn’t want to know anything about and three don’t think are "real" Harleys. The worst customer service in the whole world belongs to Harley Davidson. I have never ever seen and heard the kinds of things that go on inside of a Harley/Buell dealerships in any other business/retail customer orientated company. This is why I do all my own wrenching! As far as this thread goes, this topic has been thrown around on this forum and on the v-rod forum that I belong too. What it all boils down to is if you modify your bike at all with anything that attaches on or too or even near your motor your warranty is toast. But this is a case by case situation and every service manager is also different, if he has fight with his old lady before work your bike which he doesn’t even give a •••• about isn’t getting warranty work done. Bottom line if you have a serious problem and you’re still under warranty put it as close to stock as possible so you don’t have deal with the headache (Message edited by smoothrod on January 06, 2006) | ||
| Daves |
Smoothrod, We aren't all like that.  | ||
| Smoothrod |
Dave you are the exception to the rule my man. I deff wasnt talking about you.  | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Steve, I don't think it's fair to say that Buell doesn't take care of its customers. I've seen and heard many times of Buell going above and beyond what could reasonably be expected in order to fix something. The problem lies with alot of the dealers. Fortunately, I see this problem as working itself out while the dealers that don't want Buell drop the line. There are many GREAT dealers out there as well, like Buell of Bloomington, Indiana and Appleton Buell. | ||
| Bomber |
Steve -- as has been said before, it's not Buell -- it's some dealers -- completely different kettle of fish -- Buell does a good job, overall -- dealers, some do, some don't guess who gets the most coverage? | ||
| Daves |
 | ||
| Steve_larson |
Well, good to hear that the problem is "self rectifying", which is about all that can be asked for... I have to admit that all our dealings with Buell they have been extremely helpful, nothing but honest, forthright and extremely pleasant. The "dealer" issue makes a whole lot more sense. Steve (Message edited by steve_larson on January 06, 2006) | ||
| Ralf |
Yes, Dave you can use it.  ralf | ||
| Blake |
Well put Ralf! Steve, Please read what Ralf says on the muffler causing engine problems issue. He is 100% accurate in my opinion. I know, that issue can make it tougher to sell aftermarket mufflers, but if you are not informing your customers of that issue, you in my opinion are committing a horrible diservice, in my opinion. | ||
| Windaddiction |
ok maybe i'm wrong here but won't the ECM add more fuel to compensate for more air flow thats why there is an O2 sensor right???? I'm running a drummer with a stock ECM and my fan runs less now so to me that means less heat build up? |
