| Author | Message | ||
     Az_m2 |
I'm still with you, but haven't taken my bike in yet. I'm going to play with the suspension a bit. I did some tests last weekend, and just posted this on Advrider: Suspension set to 1 level of settings higher than recommended in Owner's manual. I got a more pronounced wobble when I used the recommended settings based on weight. Tires F36 / R38 No bags mounted, very slight wobble. Side bags mounted, no top trunk, slight wobble. Top trunk mounted, no side bags, wobble. Side bags and top trunk mounted, extreme wobble. With the side bags only, the wobble seemed to come on closer to 50mph, go away, then come back on closer to 40mph. For those of you that want me to define extreme wobble, I'll see if I can get a video, there isn't much room for interpretation, it's almost tank-slapper extreme. | ||
| Csg_inc |
Today's update is as follows. New tires did not solve the head shake with the bags on. So HH will wait till Buell tech goes to visit with EOR's bike and returns to East Troy with follow-up phone calls to HH on friday providing direction on how to proceed with my unit. I will try to nail down tomorrow a little better the diagnostic process (testing steps) done after the new tires were installed. | ||
| Eor |
Thanks for the update. I take it then, that they are planning to look at my bike this week. | ||
| Eor |
My Conversation With The Harley Tech Support Rep I received a call from the Harley Rep this afternoon with a rundown of what they have been doing with my bike. The rep mentioned several things that could contribute to the phenomenon: tire wear; steering head bearing; engine harmonic vibration; the design parameters of the bike; suspension setup; etc. He said they had checked the suspension settings and the steering head bearing once again, and had seen some improvement after tightening the bearing. He said that they had installed a new front tire and felt that doing so also improved it some. He stated that the life of the tires would probably be 3500 miles give or take, depending on one's style of riding. When I mentioned to him that my front tire still looked good after 3300 miles, he stated that they were taking my original front with them for further analysis and were providing me with a new one. He mentioned an increase in vibration transmitted through the bars just prior to the beginning of the headshake and theorized that a harmonic vibration in the engine might be a factor. When I expressed my concern that the headshake could occur at freeway speeds with the bags loaded, he stated that the rearward bias of weight under those conditions would make a headshake under those conditions less likely. I was reminded that I should always ride with both hands on the handlebars. He said that they had reset the TPS and adjusted the timing again as it seemed that my bike was struggling a bit when cold [this has been a observation of mine since day one but has gotten better with successive timing adjustments]. He noted that the bearing in the cooling fan was becoming noisy and had instructed the dealership to order a new one for me. I had also noticed this and assumed I would be needing a new cooling fan at some point. I know that others have had this, as well. He told me to call customer service and request him specifically if I had any further concerns or questions. He said that both he and Shawn Higbee had riddeen my bike today and really thought it was a great bike. He advised me to come get it and enjoy it. My interpretation of what I was told is this: They don't know exactly what is causing the decel headshake on my bike. They have made adjustments or addressed the suspect factors where possible, have seen some improvement, and now feel it to be acceptable. I appreciate their efforts but was hoping they could provide me with a more specific explanation and a remedy....perhaps there isn't one. I regret that I am too far from the dealership to run up there and ride it before they leave. If for no other reason, I would like to have met Shawn Higbee. It appears the ball is in my court now. When the replacement fan comes in, I'll get the bike and ride it. Hopefully by that time I will be physically able to do so as I have been laid up with muscle spasms in my lower back and nerve pain in my thighs for 2-3 weeks [one reason I've been so patient with this process]. If the headshake only occurs only under the very specific operating conditions I have observed and does not present a risk to me while riding normally, I can probably accept it as a quirk of the bike. My primary concern is that the presence of the headshake under those specific conditions indicates an inherent instability that might present itself unpredictably. That makes me nervous. As soon as possible, I'm just going to ride the bike and get back to some ride reports. | ||
| Blake |
Every bike I've ever ridden has exhibited some instability at some specific speed. Usually it takes some initiation to get the bars to wiggling though. | ||
| Mikej |
 (I suspect a change in the future.) Sorry to hear of the lack of a clear analysis Eor. My opinion is that the bike should not do this. They're too tall for me anyway so the issue is moot to me, so I'll shut up now. Hope your back gets better soon. Please keep us posted on what you find when you do retrieve it. | ||
| Thesmaz |
Eor, Although it sucks that they didn't give you or the rest of us Uly fanatics/owners a clear diagnosis of your problem, I guess you could install a steering damper. While I agree that the bike shouldn't have headshake during decell, a damper would go a long way in giving you piece of mind. If my Uly has the same tendency, after it arrives, that is the route that I'll probably take until the factory does a bit more research and comes up with a fix. Who knows, I may keep the steering damper installed even if they do; I've had them before and grew to really like them. Take care of that back; I know what those can be like! | ||
| Jim_sb |
Hello Eor, A harmonic vibration transmitted from the engine is a possibility after all, eh? Interesting. That's what I was getting at with my WAG. I'd take a peak at the rubber donuts, check the torque on those if it's easy to do, and take a peak at the heim links to see if they're happy. I know - you don't need any more WAGS from me. I didn't get out on my Uly last week, instead the DRZ coerced me into some back country riding up in the mountains. Came around a corner in 3rd gear pulling through the dirt and there was a mountain lion in the middle of the trail! Yowza. He graciously ceded the trail to me and my DRZ. Those cats are BIG and they're FAST. Let us know how your ride goes. Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| Csg_inc |
Short update. Buell tech reported in to HH on thursday mid day with some ideas like lower tire pressure in front to 34 psi some suspension setting changes for both the front and rear. As of Friday 5pm HH had not tried any of the recommendations yet, but they did try the second new Uly they just got in brand spanking new. Guess what the new one has the same small amount of headshake with no bags as my bike with the new tires and no bags has. They said when they added all the bags back on mine the shake got worse. They did not test it with just the side bags or just the top bag but rather put all back on and tested. So I am still waiting for the re-trial after the Buell tech recommendations are tried. | ||
| Az_m2 |
I think we're going to have to live with it. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I think we're going to have to live with it. That is an inaccurate statement. | ||
| Doverark |
Naked Ulys don't headshake. Some Ulys with saddlebags headshake, some don't. The Ulys with saddlebags that headshake do so with the bags on or off. **It must be the brackets** In the thread "Uly bag installation" http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142838/162644.html?1133734073 most said the installation was no trouble. But one (Spoof) said: >mine were a pain in the a?? not a hard job >but none of the hardware lined up >i had to muscle everythinhg in place. Can the brackets be put on upside down or backwards? If so, would that twist the tailsection enough to deform the frame enough to change geometery? | ||
| Az_m2 |
>>>>I think we're going to have to live with it. I based that statement on EOR's experience. It doesn't sound like Buell is going to spend any more time on his bike looking at that problem. Am I wrong? The headshake I'm experiencing sounds identical to EOR's, but doesn't really bother me. Can the brackets be put on upside down or backwards? If so, would that twist the tailsection enough to deform the frame enough to change geometery? It would be impossible to mount them upside down or backwards, and I can't imagine them having any effect on the frame. They sure do mount solid though and seem very strong. | ||
| Az_m2 |
The Ulys with saddlebags that headshake do so with the bags on or off. **It must be the brackets** With no bags mounted, mine has just a very slight wobble and wouldn't be worth mentioning outside of this discussion. | ||
| Csg_inc |
"Naked Ulys don't headshake" That is an inaccurate statement. As I said above HH tried a brand spanking new unit with no bags or bag hardware and found that it did shake the same amount as mine with new tires and no bags but did have the hardware mounted. I have not driven either the new one or mine yet with the new tires but I am told that the shake is very slight and that most people may not even notice it. But HH tech said it is there so I believe them. | ||
| Spoof |
Actually my brackets were very easy to bolt on. I'm real sure nothing is upsidedown or backward. However, before my bags arrived I tried to duplicate Eor's wobble many times---different road surfaces, even different tire pressures and I never found it. Instantly after attaching the brackets and bags, I had a wobble in the exact speed range Eor describes. Now, I have not yet adjusted suspension at all, but I would also be inclined to think the brackets are creating a rigidity that alters the chassis dynamics. Is it possible that those experiencing wobble now with no brackets on have a case of perceived wobble more than actual wobble? Not dissing anyone, just asking for objective self-assessment. | ||
| Eor |
I've also wondered about the brackets tweaking the frame in some manner, but I just haven't been able to wrap my head around how such a thing could happen.... | ||
| Csg_inc |
Well I picked the bike up today as it was getting too close to track day. I still have not got the "answer" from HH tech or Buell tech. HH said they have not been able to connect by phone with buell tech as the Buell tech is out till the 12th. So with the new tires and empty bags I left the dealership to find that sure enough the shake is still there and as far as I can tell not any better than when we started all this. I will pull the bags and try it then add the "drive-on" and try it again just to find out if it still shakes with out the bags and then add the bags back and "drive-on" for the final trial. But I am upset to not have an answer or fix on the way. I asked HH to get back to me when they hear back from Buell tech as I do want closure on this issue as I now have a month invested is solving this situation. | ||
| Csg_inc |
As for the install of the brackets the driver side and top case was a simple bolt on deal. The passenger side (right viewed from rear) bracket did not line up but worked once every thing was losened up but I would not call it a difficult install in the least. They sure are a solid set up. However, I believe that the shake so minimal with the bags off and brackets on. It sure seems to be related to the bags themselves not the brackets. | ||
| Csg_inc |
Tried the bike with all the cases off. It has a very slight shake at indicated 50 mph. Pulled the top case bracket off added the ride-on to the tires and reset the suspension and tire pressure to factory settings and the shake got even less almost gone. Went back to talk to HH tech and he said they had dropped front tire pressure to 34 and changed the suspension settings to what Shawn H had come up with on EOR's bike. HH tech said he would relay my findings to Buell tech by phone on tuesday. The overall ride quality sure feels better to me at the factory settings. I am not sure what rider weight the "Higbee" settings were based on as I need 240 lbs with gear and the "Higbee" settings sure felt a lot stiffer to me. Did not try adding any weight to the bags or just the side bags. | ||
| Eor |
They told me they set the suspension for 170-200 pounds. I don't recall them mentioning anything about running the front tire at less than spec'ed inflation pressure. (Message edited by eor on December 10, 2005) | ||
| Eor |
I picked up the Uly today and rode it a few miles before loading it on the trailer. I couldn't tell that anything had changed regarding the "coast down wobble." Oh well... good thing I am ready to move on as I was conveniently presented with a new issue upon my arrival home.... After rolling it off the trailer, I had trouble starting it. The fuel pump kept cycling when I placed the switch in the run position and it acted as if it barely had enough juice to turn the engine over. It did start....seems a little early to have a down battery, even with it siting idle for a couple of weeks. Of course it started fine at the dealership...they always do, don't they? I'll check the battery and the connections tomorrow.... | ||
| Csg_inc |
I made two more trips back to HH to get the "answer" but was finally told that Buell tech was unwilling to put anything in writing so I am at a loss on what to use as settings for the suspension or if I should run the front tire at a lower that stock setting. If the life expectancy is only 3,500 then I sure do not want to shorten it by running too low a tire pressure. The best "answer" I could get out of anyone was that there are certain compromises made for a bike to run on road and off road. To tell you the truth I have no idea what that means, but I sure think it is odd that with almost 2,000 bike produced by November more than two people should have reported this situation, if it is just a trait of this bike. So it maybe that AZM2 is right we may have to just live with it after all. On a second note now the cooling fan is sounding like a bearing is getting ready to die, so I asked the HH tech to order a new one to have in stock just in case as I do not want another long wait like the tire to flagstaff issue we already had. So far since I have the only one they have sold the parts department is not stocking a lot of stuff. As far as the battery goes I am already on my second one. It seems that the bolt was cross threaded in the one terminal and when I tried to remove it to install the batter tender and gerbing tap the bolt sheared off. Since the dealership did not do the work, they would/could not get Buell to warrant the battery. How does a steel bolt cross threaded in lead shear off on removal I would not have thought it was possible. It took them a week and a half to turn down the claim and then they lost the half of the bolt but I did get the battery back. | ||
| Eor |
Whatever caused the difficulty in starting last night did not re-occur today. Each time [including early this morning at 25 degrees] the bike started with no problems. I put about 40 miles on the Uly this afternoon. It does appear that the wobble thing has improved some, but it is still noticeable if I release my grip on the bars when decelerating through 50-40 mph. I'm not going to worry about it anymore unless it gets worse or shows up under other circumstances. I'm afraid I'm going to screw around and wreck the bike trying to induce something that doesn't occur during normal riding anyway. Lets talk about the Corbin seat.... | ||
| Eor |
Something Different For The ••• Of The ••• While the Ulysses was in the shop, I received the Corbin seat I ordered from Dave Stueve. Today was the first opportunity I have had to install it. The box from Corbin was entertaining...  I'm such a non-conformist... Question Authority is my motto....  No, I didn't cut myself [nor the seat] with the knife. If you must know it was sling shot incident...it's a funny story...maybe later.  As anticipated the Corbin seat did not fit. Instead of trimming the bumpers with a Dremel tool, I opted for a more elegant solution I thought would preserve the seat in its original condition, in the event I choose to sell it later. I removed the bracket holding the "hook" piece and inserted three flat washers.   Notice how the latch is just barely catching the hook. For an optimum fit, several of the bumpers probably need to be ground down some.  We achieved docking between the seat and the bike, but there is a little bit of play at the rear of the seat due to the bumpers being a bit too tall. More to follow.... (Message edited by eor on December 15, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
"it is still noticeable if I release my grip on the bars when decelerating through 50-40 mph." I don't know Eeyore. I think you should soldier-on and continue trying to define the envelope for this issue. Maybe try standing up on the seat before releasing your grip to see if the wobble might become dangerously unstable for that case.  Good to see you back posting. How's the back? | ||
| Eor |
So here's the final result....  I do think it looks better than the stock seat.  The primary reason I purchased the Corbin was to get my feet a little more solidly on the ground and the Buell low seat had not yet been released. The results were somewhat disappointing. First the stock seat...  The Corbin...  Aint a hell of allot of difference, is it? And no...I don't wear tennis shoes when I ride. I started comparing the two seats. The Corbin is obviously scooped out more...   I need to sweep the front porch, BTW. Even though the Corbin is scooped out, it appears to be wider?  So...as far as helping me get more of my feet on the ground, it doesn't appear the Corbin is going to help much. Whether I keep it will be determined after I put some miles on it. If it is at least as comfortable as the stock, I'm a little ahead and it will be worth it. If it is not as comfortable, I won't be using it, as comfort is more important to me than losing a minimal amount of set height. The seat is so hard, I can't imagine it being more comfortable, but it may help me get my arms in a little better position...I'll try to ride it some this afternoon and see.... | ||
| Blake |
Actually Eeyore, with the Corbin seat it looks to me like your heel is about an inch closer to the pavement. Look at where the line defined by the bottom of the muffler intersects the back of your shoe in each shot. That's pretty darn significant. Maybe try adjusting the front and rear sag to maximum or even a little beyond maximum and see how it feels. | ||
| Eor |
It was a short ride, but I liked the Corbin more than I thought I would. My torso is sitting lower, placing my arms in a little more comfortable position relative to the bars, and I feel like I have gotten some weight off my wrists. However, when I sit back into the "cup" of the seat, it is a long reach as I have short arms. I may try to adjust the bars back some, but risers with a very slight up and back orientation would be perfect for me. At stoplights, I could tell that I wasn't having to lean as far off to get my left foot solidly on the pavement. My biggest complaint about the Corbin so far is the increased amount of vibration that is being transferred through the seat compared to the stock seat. I need to put allot more miles on it before I pass judgment on it. | ||
| M2nc |
Eor, I am catching up on the head shake issue so forgive me if my questions are dated. I really did not want to read about someone having fun on a Uly since I am still waiting on parts from my Ice Skating Uly event, but I guess I'm getting passed it now. Question, and again forgiven me if you have already covered this. Does the head shake on deceleration happen only with the top box on? I received my bags in the October time frame. I never put on the top box because I don't need it and I liked the two bag only look. I never felt any difference in the bike's handling with just the side bags. I did feel something similar on the Nighthawk when I purchased a Tour Master Sissy Bar Bag. One of those big ones. After putting the bag on I noticed right away that the bike was a slave to the wind. Passing a semi on the Interstate was an act of bravery or stupidity. Then I put a windshield on the bike and everything calmed down as long as I stayed in line with the two. If I would lean off the bike in a turn, the problems would start again. So my Nighthawk problem was an aerodynamic issue, so could this issue you are having be also? The instructions on the bags said not to use the top box alone, that "serious injury" may occur. Just a though without all the facts. I have felt wobble on deceleration on I think the M2 (maybe the Nighthawk I'm not sure) once when I took my hands off the bars (look mom no hands) while decelerating. The only wobble I felt on the Uly took me a while to figure out. The wobble happened at speed and was so slight that my eyes were saying, "going perfectly straight!" while that nerve in the pit of my stomach was saying, "what's that funny movement?" I would feel a slight wondering while riding down highways at speed and it took me a while to figure it out. It ended up that when I wear one of my bigger coats on a windy day, my arms buffeting in the wind were moving my hands just enough to make the bike move around. You see on the M2, my weight is more on the bars so the hold was more stable. Also the Uly's reactions to bar inputs is much faster and more numb than the M2. Now I try to shift the load more on my hands to steady them when the wind is up. No more problem. |
