| Author | Message | ||
     Aaron |
Bill: thanks for the response. I can't explain how your dyno sheet was generated, but please understand if I start out a little skeptical, it's my nature. Right now, the state of the art in stock displacement, dual carbureted, normally-aspirated all-out race Buells is about 125 rear wheel horsepower. This is reportedly what the best funded, top of the line, on the front row at Daytona, bikes are making. Not even remotely streetable, and a big pile of money and development effort in the engines. Street wise, the outer limits for a single carb bike stock displacement bike are around 112 rwhp, SAE corrected. That's one of the premier shops in the country very carefully building a motor using everything they've learned in years and years of engine building. Most of us home hackers can break 100 with some head work and cams and such. To get a number like 128 typically takes a big motor, or nitrous, or a turbo, or some combination thereof. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking you, I just think you've been fed some bad information. Keep in mind that there are many many knowledgeable people who participate on this board and live and breathe all things HD/Buell performance. For example, Hoser, Pammy Brown, Ron Dickey of Axtell, etc. There are also folks who work in dealerships in various capcities and are very knowledgeable on the bikes, for example Jeff H. I'm more on the consumer side myself but I draw on these kinds of folks all I can. Many of us modify our bikes and attend Buell events and participate in dyno shootouts and such. So the knowledge base here is pretty decent. If you ever come out to CO, look me up, we'll put the bike on the dyno ... See ya, AW | ||
| Justcuz |
Aaron, I can only tell you what I was told, I wasn't there when the bike was run on the dyno. I would love to put the bike on another dyno and see the numbers, I also want to get the original copy of the first dyno run! I also need to spend some quality time with some people who can educate me on the ins and outs of keeping my X-1 on the road. One of the reasons I decided to get the brand new bike, and associated warranty, was so I wouldn't have to work on it, just ride. So much for that. More later, for sure........... Bill | ||
| Aaron |
Well, Bill, welcome to the board and I think you'll find a lot of folks around here who are helpful and knowledgeable with respect to your X1. AW | ||
| Hoser |
Aaron: Thanx for the kind words , I had a slow day today (for a change) , spent some time in the dyno room today doing a bit of "data gathering" . Let me know if you want anything tested like S2 modules stock vs race kit or whatever , it may save you some time and does not cost me anything . BTW the stock 96 S2 module rev limit is 6250 ( I think you asked me that the other day). When I have a spare moment I will post some dyno graphs in the appropriate section. Hoser | ||
| Court |
Aaron: I just caught the tail end of this. It looks like someone was told by a dealer that they had a 128HP Buell? Is so, the dealer lied. Period. Bill: If you rode the 100 miles at 4500RPM you did NOTHING in terms of reacclimating the DDFI. For the DDFI to "relearn" you'll need to run 2,500-3,500RPM at less than 50% throttle. CAVEAT: That is what the early ECM was and may have changed. Aggresive riding should have NO effect on your ECM. When we were testing these bikes, we subjected them to more aggresive riding than you will ever approach. I'd find a "neutral" dealer with a dyno and get a good baseline. Court | ||
| Court |
Bill: Was just driving to the office and got to thinking I may have been a bit harsh. Please understand that I was not suggesting YOU had misrepresented your bike. What does trip my trigger is the hapless obsession with "more is better" than some folks promulgate. Long times readers will recall my method of sorting this stuff out. . . . if the dealer tells you 128hp, tell him fine. We'll take it to a Dyno and I'll pay your asking price less $100 for each HP it falls short. If it goes over, I'll pay a $1,000 bonus. My guess is you'd save about $2,000 on the bike. Horsepower is a very deceiving number in terms of both the joy and performance a motorcycle offers. If, however, HORSEPOWER is ALL you want, that's easy. Call Ron Dickey at AXTELL. Court | ||
| Aaron |
Thanks for the offer, Hoser ... but ... over the last year in particular I've spent a big pile of money on dyno time, and recent developments in my life clearly indicated that the need was only going to grow, so I took the plunge and bought my own ... a trailer mounted 168/188, used. Works good. No eddy current module though, but that's okay. I'm trying out some of the different uses other than just straight pulls, like the throttle response test (whacking it open at the torque peak), drivetrain friction test, etc. Pretty interesting stuff. Not being "on the clock", I can take the time to experiment with things like this. It's a great instrument, it eliminates a lot of guesswork. AW | ||
| Markj |
I'm planning on a big bore stock stoke conversion. Although I want to use AAC 3 13/16 cyclinder and pistions I'm a little concerned about boring the cases to 4.010 as far as reliability is concerned. If I buy AAC 3 3/4 cyclinders from Tilleys or AAC they will undercut the spigots to 3.930" which means that the cases only need to be bored to 3.935". Now I know there is not much difference between 3.935 and 4.010", but is enought to warrant choosing the 3 3/4 over the 3 13/16? Any opinions? Mark J | ||
| Mikej |
Aaron, I think your next addition would be a soundproofed dyno-room, so the neighbors and wandering officers won't complain.  | ||
| Hoser |
Aaron: I had no idea you bought your own , congratulations . HOSER | ||
| Aaron |
Mark: you need to talk to Axtell ... they live and breathe this stuff ... but I will say that there are many 3-13/16 motors running around that are reliable and powerful. Pammy has one and BHR has one in progress and Frank has one. Axtell has done bazillions of them. Think cast iron. Mike: the neighbors and the cops can pound sand! Actually, I'm in a lot better neighborhood than Chuck for this stuff, nearest neighbor is roughly 400 yards away. Hoser: thanks, it'll sure save me a lot of time not having to haul bikes away to do tuning. AW | ||
| Christopher |
Aaron, Your own dyno! That's commitment! Great to hear about all the developmental work... I'd like to reask my question... If I can't buy a "complete" race kit for my X1 because of the can recall. What's next best thing? I'd guess just getting the race ECM, Air Cleaner...is there a header? and a can that will work in balance with the rest of the system? Looking for the low risk solution here ;-) Any rumors as to when they will start shipping the complete system again? Is my data old and the problems been fixed and the kits are shipping? Chris | ||
| Peter_T |
Christopher, Buy the race ECM, the air cleaner and a good aftermarket muffler. If I can be parochial, let me say that the staintune is a great buy. Also if you want to improve the looks of the X1 (in my less than humble opinion) buy an S3 race air cleaner kit and throw away the plastic hanging off the tank cover. Having done the above myself, I'm satisfied with the results Pete | ||
| Eeeeek |
Bill, It's already been said a few times, but I'll chime in, too. The race kit doesn't really do much for the top end, maybe one or two horsepower. The race kit is targeted at the midrange. See this dyno chart for a typical X1 before/after the race kit:  To put things into perspective, my buddy Jack has an S1 with a 95ci S&S engien Built by pros. I'm guessing the engine cost about the same as the bike and he pulls about 115 rwhp and usually manages to win the Buell dyno shoot outs he goes to. Vik | ||
| Jmartz |
Mark: If you look at earlier postings in this section you can see a set of cases that were prepped for Axtell's 3 13/16 jugs. I believe AAC's might have a thicker wall spigot as they are all aliminum. It would seem safer to use S & S cases for a larger displacement motor. The cases pictured had no room left for a cylinder base gasket or even an O ring. The cylinder spigots would have to be sealed with glue. While this set up is proven to work, the long term stability of such a radically machined case would worry me. Jose | ||
| Christopher |
Peter, The dyno chart that Vik put up shows what I'm after, mid range "punch". I guess I'll have to look the the exhaust vault for dyno's of different exhausts to see which one's closely replicate the performance of the Buell race can. In your experience how does the "staytune" compare to the race can? | ||
| Tripper |
Christopher - I believe it is the header that gets you the most gain. You can get the Buell race header, then put the Supertrapp IDS system on it. Be sure to get the Race ECM. | ||
| Raymaines |
Aaron, my main dyno man, Would a bike on the dyno get higher HP numbers if the air cleaner were removed so the motor could suck all the air it wants? If that same engine were "Dyno tuned" (without the air cleaner) would it then be improperly tuned when the air cleaner were replaced? I want my bike to have the most impressive dyno chart possible but want it to run properly on the street. Thanks, RaY2K | ||
| Markj |
Thanks Aaron and Jose for the input. I want this motor to be reliable. I was told that undercutting the spigots wouldn't be that big of a deal since case integrity is more of a factor with aluminum. Tilleys does this all the time. They told me that they can undercut the 3 3/4 further than the 3 13/16 even thought the AAC jugs start out at the same spigot size(4.010) for both. I guess I'll have to do a little more research. Mark J | ||
| Aaron |
Ray: I've experimented with that a bit, and every time, I've been able to get more out of the motor without the air cleaner in place. Generally not a big difference but enough that you know it's not just a repeatability thing. I know they say a good air cleaner can actually improve power but I've yet to see it. I saw a pretty big difference (~3hp) when I did this with my FXR, which was fitted with the SE air cleaner. That result prompted me to order the Zipper's big filter kit for it but I haven't messed with dynoing the bike since then. The difference I see with my S1 (race kit air filter) is more on the order of 1hp or so. Nowadays what I generally do is set the jetting with the air cleaner removed, that way when it's put back on the bike goes slightly rich, which is safer than slightly lean. The problem with all this is who knows what's happening when the bike is moving. For example, on the LSR bike, I dialed it in perfect on the dyno and had it all figured out how much to move the jetting for the 1000' elevation change between here and Bonneville. Well, the data we were getting on the great white dyno told us we were lean in the rear and fat in the front. Clearly the air moving over and around and through the bodywork was changing things. But the dyno was still useful, it got us close, which meant we dialed it in that much quicker at the event. AW | ||
| Peter_T |
Christopher, For the best comparo of X1 mufflers you need to check out the "X1 files". It's a page on the web. Sorry but I don't have the link. I've just put together a new PC and have lost my favourites links. I'm sure someone else here can point you to it though. I haven't tried the race headers or the race muffler so I can't really comment. I do know that the biggest midrange improvement I got was from the ECM. I suspect that the stock ECM is set up to comply with EPA regulations and that the race ECM delivers what is really needed for midrange performance. Adding the muffler made only a small difference but the staintune was good in the midrange. Previously I have had a yoshi pipe which improved top end but broke fast and limited ground clearance. The S3 air box also seemed to make a big difference. I can't afford time on a dyno but seat of the pants (and struggling to keep the front wheel down) suggested to me that the airbox was helping. It may be that the race headers make the biggest difference but I can't confirm this. If someone has done the race kit step by step and can confirm it please let me know and I'll start saving. Pete | ||
| Tripper |
The X1 Files | ||
| Justcuz |
....Back on line, was out of town over the weekend--not on bike, it's at the dealership for leaky rocker covers, rear shock replacement, electrical issue with clutch safety switch, and 10,000 mile service. Aaron, Thanks, maybe a trip to CO this year, been planning to spend some time out west. But to be honest, with my X-1's service record, I'm not sure how far I'd be comfortable going on it. Still looking into Ohio's Lemon Law. Court, Everything I know (however limited or skewed) about DDFI I got from web and magazines, with a little info about my bike from mechanic (which seems to be in question at this point). No offense taken, I would much rather Know what I'm dealing with and develop a knowledge base that is accurate. With that, if I present something as fact that doesn't seem so, please call me on it and I will reveal my sources..... Eeeeek, Thanks, I think I will just shut my mouth when it comes to technical stuff and just ask questions. It's interesting that you posted a dyno run, it seems that my dyno run is missing from the dealership computer. I implied to the service department that I may have been misled by a salesman and they said that they would try to get it on the dyno after it is off the rack. Then I think I'll run to another dealer and have one run there - just to see????? Thank you all for your comments, I love my X-1 and plan on having one for a long long time. Bill | ||
| Xlwp |
Has anyone seen the April issue of Cycle World? It has a full page on HD's new (secret) Super Cruiser. Everything you've been wanting for "More Power." PB | ||
| Rhanz |
Okay, I'm about to enter the wonderful and wooly world of performance modifications for my poor, stock '00 S3. I'm not really that concerned with increasing top end hp, with the riding I do I'm not usually that high in the rpm range anyway. I'm mostly concerned about low-mid range power. The way I look at it, I can either just do the race kit thing and be done with it, or go with third party stuff (K&N filter, Supertrapp/V&H exhaust, etc. etc.). Which route would you folks recommend, and if aftermarket, what pieces would you recommend? I also understand that either way, I'll need the Race ECM. Is this correct, or am I just deluded again? Thanks, Rob | ||
| Justcuz |
Aaron, Chris, Anybody: Just had my bike looked at today by the factory tech. He went over everything and wound up replacing the wiring harness. He also made arrangements to replace a plug wire (none in stock!) and to get the upgrade on the front exhaust mount. He adjusted and cleared a couple of faults in the ecm (tps and o2) and just went over everything with a fine tooth comb. Said bike is fine. When I asked him about a re-occuring problem I have with a high idle (once in awhile, the bike will idle at or above 2000 rpm for 20 or 30 seconds), he explained that if the bike is overheated, a gap may form at the intake causing more air volume and consequently a higher idle. Makes sense. My question is this, is this normal, or OK? When I picked up the bike, I rode about 2 miles to see my girlfriend and let the bike sit for about 20 minutes. On the 2 mile return trip (no horseplay), the bike starts its high idle again. It is about 35 degrees here, and I put no "abnormal" stress on the bike. What's up? Is there a fix for this? Am I hurting the bike in any way? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bill | ||
| Aaron |
Bill: If I had something to offer here, I would, but all I can say is there's a reason I prefer carburetors. Honestly I don't know what might be causing the situation, there are many folks here more knowledgeable on injection who may be able to help. Best of luck, AW | ||
| Aaron |
 Here's a dyno sheet from a bike a buddy and I tuned up, I'm just posting it to show the value of a tune-up. I don't have his permission so I'll withhold his name. This is a '98 S3T with 24K miles on it. Blue is the before and red is the after. This bike had never even had it's timing cover removed, the timing was still in the factory location. We found it to be pretty far retarded. Timing it properly accounted for about 5hp. Jetting was the other 4hp. 10 numbers on the jet size is the difference. Just an FYI ... IMO, there's no point throwing hot-rod parts at a bike and not dyno tuning it. You can spend thousands of dollars and then leave gobs of power on the table for lack of $100 in dyno time, I've seen people do this. AW | ||
| Mikej |
I gotta make a dyno appointment sometime soon. | ||
| Archer |
Hey guys Ross again here. Thanks for all the encouraging e-mails. I have ridden out at Texas world and love every minute of it. Don I don't think my girl friend would appreciate me handing those pics out any ways went to my buddies down at the local buell dealer and this is what i cane up with for my taste and budget. this is in packages (gotta take it a step at a time) 1st package- Hyper charger (gotta lose that ugly air box) $160 K&N jet kit $75 Borla slip on $300 2nd package- JAG oil cooler $250 Cam kit (making it an X1 engine) $275 3rd package- Mikuni carb $350 Screaming Eagle Ignition $250 Maybe's- single sided swing arm $2500 <--- good god!!!!! inverted forks $800 PLease if you have any ideas let me know. This just seems like a natural progression over time. Probably will be in 6 month increments(except for the maybe's) Any questions comments and even snide remarks will be appreciated. Thanks guys ya'll are awesome Ross |
