| Author | Message | ||
     Se7enth_sign |
Is there a company that offers titanium rods for tube framed Buells? | ||
| Blake |
I don't recall ever hearing of any. | ||
| Whodom |
Check out this site: http://www.visi.com/~moperfserv/buell.htm It's by someone hot rodding a tube framer, and he mentions that they plan on adding titanium rods to the engine at some point. Perhaps he can supply details? | ||
| Bigblock |
Ya, check ou tthis guys site, he has done some great buell stuff a few years ago. The advantage of the tuber- DUAL CARBS! Sweet stuff, wonder if he's doing anything with X-bikes? | ||
| Zoar |
Mike Roland now works for Kuryakyn. | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
a dual intake system would be sweet if I thought I could pull it off. This guy knows what he's doing and it still wasn't easy. | ||
| Moxnix |
Roland is a designer for Kuryakyn. STD makes XR style dual carb heads for XL/Buell applications. Dan Baisley makes XR style left side dual carb/right side exhaust heads for same. R&R makes dual carb street heads set up like Rolands. Hyperformance sells them. | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
Call my insane, but I would want to keep the FI. *ducks* | ||
| Blake |
Question: What exactly are you looking to get out of a set of exotic titanium rods? Are the bearing races integral titanium alloy too? Problem? I think maybe so. Why? Titanium alloy has about half the stiffness of steel. Which means that a titanium bearing race will deform under load a lot more than would a steel bearing race. Which means more heat, shorter life, more parasitic power loss. Yeah, lighter rods would be advantageous for a high revving high-performance engine, but hey, why not go all the way if we are going to dream of exotic stuff? How about some metal matrix composite rods?  | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
The motor is almost completely torn down. While its open anyway, I want to lighten the recipricating mass as well as a few other things before she gets buttoned up again. I'm looking into options... lighter rods is definately on the shopping list. Why titanium? Seems to work for Ducati well enough... but I would want a reputable retailer. I've been doing much reading on the pros and cons. Either way, it doesn't look like there are any options for Buells. I'm now reading up on Carrillo vs Jims H-beam rods. | ||
| Buellzebub |
mmmm... MMC's good stuff (as long as there are no stress risers or notches) my MMC mountainbike handlebars tore like paper once a (very small) notch was added. dukitties have a different style of bearing arrangerment on the crank i believe | ||
| Farrisbueller |
I bet Carrillo could come up with a set if you really want them. | ||
| Bigblock |
I'm not a metallurgist, Blake, or an engineer, so I may well be totally wrong... But I was under the impression, for some reason I can't back up with anything like fact at the moment, that Ti was very stiff and hard, but what it was lacking on steel was mainly wear properties... or is it just stiff when on an equal mass basis with steel, which would give you a part with a lot more volume? I do know that Ti conrods are commonplace on many hi-perf and race engines, I thoughgt it was for weight savings while retaining comparable if not greater strength than steel rods, or is it mainly a weight thing for often tore down race motors? I think the ZO-6 LS-7 motor has 'em. | ||
| Bandm |
I would think titanium rods would use hardened steel bearing races like the forged steel rods do. Here is a guy that makes titanium rods as well as titanium flywheels. Looks very expensive. http://edgecylinderhead.tripod.com/id5.html | ||
| Rocketman |
My opinion. Don't bother wasting your time or money on titanium rods. If there was that much to be gained from using such rods in a Buell motor someone more mainstream would be selling 'em now. Besides, whatever you wish from your motor, I can't imagine in what environment other than top level racing that you might gain a performance advantage by using titanium rods. I'm using a full S&S (bevel edged) crank assembly in my motor with Wiseco forged pistons, and yes there is no doubt about it, the motor spins up much quicker than stock. S&S also make an even lighter crank assembly than mine. Their 'knife edged' crank. The 'stock' S&S rods that come on both assemblies are rated to around 200BHP. Quite frankly if this isn't good enough for your needs I'd be very surprised. In my opinion anything else is simply overkill. And yes I like my power well served hot, like a good vindaloo curry. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Ray, Some Ti alloys are pretty strong, no where near as strong as the best steel alloys, but Ti alloys are indeed lighter in density, about half that of steel, but Ti alloys are indeed about half as stiff too. Funny how the structural metals work out like that, they all have about the same density to modulus (stiffness) ratio. That said, when the failure mode of a structural component is in buckling or local instability, then the lighter but thicker material will provide a superior strength to weight ratio. I agree with Rocket, which is why I asked the originator of this thread, what he was hoping to gain with Ti alloy rods. | ||
| Benm2 |
Hobans specializes in crank work, maybe worth a call there. If Ti rods were regularly available, they'd still be expensive. Since they'd probably need to be custom, why bother? I think that alot of Buell roadracing teams are running stock rods. You might be able to get some weight off the flywheels, though. I've been told that aftermarket rods (steel) are HEAVIER than stock, but I've never measured myself. There's a few people selling aluminum or machined steel primary drive sprockets, there's weight to be had there. A machined steel sprockets worth maybe 2 lbs. If you hunt further (or talk to a few Buell race team managers) they can direct you to companies that make aluminum clutch baskets too. Try http://www.billetusa.com Millenium cylinders are lighter too. Since the cases are apart, 88" cylinders will make it rev faster when its IN gear. MMC's for connecting rods? Hmm. Why not this? http://www.cartech.com/products/wr_products_strength_am310.html?leftn=our_produc ts&lefto=empty&lefti=empty 310,000 ksi ultimate? Who needs MMC's? | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
From what I've read, S&S rods are stronger but the result is added weight. It is my understanding that Carrillo rods are the lighter of the two but read a mention about lower bearing failure recently. I'm looking for a second source to that information. I was planning to knife edge and balance my stock crank. I came across something called "Darkhorse" crank service. Anybody know what this entails? | ||
| Bandm |
Here is a link to a Hot Rod Magazine article titled Choosing The Right Connecting Rods All About Connecting Rods: What’s Right For You? http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/82378/index.html Some copy & paste of things I found interesting: Reciprocating weight accelerates to a stop then changes direction. Rotating weight moves in a single direction. Loosely speaking, removing one ounce of reciprocating weight is more beneficial to longevity and efficiency than removing a pound of rotating weight. In other words, don’t waste time grinding the crank counterweights. Concentrate first on the rods, pistons, and pins. Got a huge wad of cash burning a hole in your wallet? Then you’ll want to know that titanium rods offer the highest strength-to-mass ratio of them all. A well-designed titanium rod is about 20 percent lighter than a comparable steel rod. The root cause of as many as 80 percent of catastrophic rod failures actually begins when the big end loses its ability to maintain safe bearing clearance. The oil film gets displaced, the bearing grabs the crank, and the resulting kink-load snaps the beam. Adding power through compressive loading is actually easier on the rods than the high-tensile loading that comes with screaming rpm. Apply this to a Buell motor: Lightweight piston/rod/pin assembly add power and reliability. High RPM is the enemy of connecting rods, not a problem at 6800 RPM. Increasing compression adds power at all RPM's while being easy on connecting rods. The main cause of rod failure is less because of roller bearings on the big end of the rod, as long as the oil pump keeps spinning. In theory a lightweight piston/rod/pin assembly with higher compression is the perfect modification for a low rpm high torque motor. In practice? If somebody is using this in a buell, they're not talking. Mark | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
I've read that article... it contributed to my decision to search for a lighter (titanium) rod. I've looked into lighter pistons as well but the rods were my focus. | ||
| Benm2 |
Recip weight: Cycle-Rama offers slipper pistons for Buells (lighter) Here's a link for titanium wrist pins: http://www.stealth-medical.com/auto/bigTwinWristPins.htm S&S sells alloy bearing cages for the crank bearings. I've no idea what the stock cage is; never been that far inside my own motor. If you've got the cash, stealth makes hollow-stem titanium valves too. Since HD is just aware of the benefits of reducing recip weight on power & reliability, I don't expect you'll find alot there for the taking. Maybe a few grams here or there. Defining the benefits of said hardware is mystery to me. How much more power will your motor make with a piston & rod that weigh 100g less? Beat's me, but I know its expensive to find out. You can get POUNDS off your bike by changing a few items, some of them already described. One other trick to try would be to replace the stock battery with a smaller capacity unit. The tubers use a YTX20, the XB's use a YTX14. The 20 weighs 12.4 lbs, the 14 weighs 8.1 lbs. As far as I know they use the same starter motor, so the battery should be able to turn the motor just as well. Over 4 lbs for the price of a battery & the effort of making a new battery strap. | ||
| The_old_poop |
RE: "That said, when the failure mode of a structural component is in buckling or local instability, then the lighter but thicker material will provide a superior strength to weight ratio." BULLSEYE!!! An example of this is V8 blown alcohol and nitro-methane engines. They use aluminum alloys because they need a material that: 1) Allows custom rod lengths and different center to center lengths; 2) Has sufficient cross sectional area to prevent buckling. There are design tradeoffs involved even in the selection of aluminum alloys for this task. Currently most of them are using 7075 for this where 2018 Al used to be more common. It should be noted that 2018 is actually far superior to 7075 Al in notched fatigue properties. In this application, life expectancy for aluminum rods is 5 passes for fuel and 25 for alcohol. Any more passes and you risk having a picture window appear in that nice Keith Black block. "I agree with Rocket..." So do I. RE: "Choosing The Right Connecting Rods All About Connecting Rods: What’s Right For You?" By Steve Magnante I am going to tread lightly here because Steve is a friend of mine, however most of HIS metallurgical conclusions in this piece are absolute ... well lets just say it doesn't reflect his best research. For example under the topic cast steel he states: "When you consider that a cast “Arma-Steel” Pontiac 455 rod weighs 31.7 ounces and a stock Chevy 454 forged rod weighs 27.4 ounces, you’ll agree they’re the automotive equivalent of recycled cardboard." Arma-steel isn't steel-- it is (sand) cast iron. Arma-steel is a registered trade name owned by CWC Castings (that is if my memory is correct). CWC produced camshafts, crankshafts, rods, rockers, blocks and heads, etc. for most of the major US automobile manufacturers. The result was an article that interested some readers, entertained others and allowed Him to express His opinions in a way that satisfies the most advertisers simultaneously. And that is what journalists do... Articles like this are designed to point you in the right direction for the blister pack that you didn't realize you needed, until you read the article. | ||
| Blake |
TOP (The old poop) is too smart.  Welcome to the fun! More please! | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
I know of Carrillo and S&S (I've not been able to find specs on Jim's rods), what other maufacturers are out there for Buells? | ||
| Panic |
"Compression ratio change from 9-1 to 10-1 reduces crankpin roller life by 50%" (Jerry Branch) | ||
| Rocketman |
I'd imagine a more demanding 'work' place and modern steels have surpassed JB's comment. Rocket | ||
| S1rick |
Go with an S&S knife edge and S&S rods. Have them set up the whole assembly then have a competent HD mechanic install it in the cases. Believe me, you will be glad you did. Rick 88" S1 | ||
| Nfoviking |
I had Hobans knife edge my flywheels and balance the assembly using Carillo rods. Bike revs Much faster. They build bikes that finish races... | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
I think that's the setup I will go with. | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
Check this out...  | ||
| Matty |
Info??? | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
This is the "Darkhorse" crank service by Revolution Performance and Hoban I mentioned earlier. | ||
| Matty |
Wow. That's quite a bit of lost mass. What discussion was the "dark horse" info under - I'm not seeing it here for some reason. I hope it's not about fitting that twin cam wheel set pictured above in a Buell... talk bout a monster motor. Hooowa! | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
I asked if anyone had info on it. I saw it listed in the Buell service section of rev performance. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Isn't that a twin-cam crank? Their link to Buell performance stuff leads to bigtwin stuff! I don't think they know what a sportster looks like. | ||
| Zoar |
That is a Twin Cam assembly that has been lightened with a welded crank pin. | ||
| Se7enth_sign |
Its a picture of the service offered... not necessarily the exact crank you want the service on. |
