| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>>"and let us never speak of the disaster that was and is the blast." That's an inaccurate statement. The BLAST has proven to be a fabulous motorcycle. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Just a small comment: engines are liquid cooled to keep the operating temperature range in a smaller band, which allows tighter tolerances during operation, which results in more power. It is not a simple as just the ability to keep them from overheating. | ||
| Krassh |
Wsplrll, Go for it. I bought a '03 XB9S with 350 demo or shop miles on it and it also had the race kit installed by the dealer from day one so I know it was probably wrung out. 20,000+ miles and no problems. | ||
| Light_keeper |
I still want to know where Falconbridge SW is.  | ||
| Blake |
Steven (Neutron21), I understand your predicament. Acknowledging evidence that tends to refute a personal opinion can be difficult for some folks. Responding thoughtfully in a debate with evidence to support a personal opinion can be even more troubling for some folks. I agree. Better for you to go for a ride. I am beginning to find your contributions here disingenuous, your unfortunate Blast comment for instance, so I took a look at your profile entries. Would you please clarify what state you live in? You list your country as "USA" with your city and state as "Falconbridge, SW". I'm not familiar with any state abbreviated as "SW." I'd also like to verify that you did indeed work for a Buell dealership. To that end, would you please advise with what dealership were you previously employed? If you will provide this information to me privately, it will help me to vouch for your credibility. | ||
| Blake |
Spatten, There is some truth to that bit of conventional wisdom. But there is a lot of misconception there too. For instance, other than with liquid cooling, how would you cool a compact IL4 engine that has mere millimeters separating adjacent cylinders and whose solid frontal area blocks all oncoming airflow from reaching the aft side of the engine? Compare the widths and configurations of current air-cooled IL4 engines (Suzuki Bandit) to the current crop of similar displacement repliracer motors. Also, if closer tolerances are a governing factor for achieving optimum engine power, why are racing engines intentionally built with very loose tolerances? Consider too that even a liquid-cooled engine must endure cold starts, so the tolerancing advantage wrt operational temperature range is probably not as big a factor as you might believe. I would say that a well-engineered, computer-controlled, multi-speed, forced air cooling system could easily provide superior operational tolerances compared to the average liquid cooling system. It isn't the medium, it is the cooling system design/engineering that provides optimal uniformity in engine temperatures. There is truth in what you state, but there is a lot more behind the choice to use a liquid cooling system on a motorcycle than just the tolerance issue. | ||
| M1combat |
fer sure. | ||
| M1combat |
BTW Blake... I was near Granbury TX over the weekend  . A small community of 1300 homes called de-cordova or something like that. A very nice place but I missed the mountains of Northern AZ after about five minutes . Great weather all weekend though. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Blake, good comments. I'd like to add that on cold start the air cooled engines have tighter tolerances, as the cylinder will expand more. I learned that the hard way after not checking specs when a machine shop bored a cylinder for me to air cooled specs instead of liquid cooled. Therefore the liquid cooled engines will run a smaller piston and ring gap when hot, but will be looser when cold, staying in a smaller overall range, which should be good for wear and cold start. As far as IL4 it is true about dissapating heat, but consider that a 80cc dirt bike engine is liquid cooled and there is definitely no problem adding fins for air cooling there. I think they are liquid cooled for performance reasons only. I'd add that single cylinder dirt bikes use liquid cooling for the same primary reason as the IL4s, which is performance based. Other than piston and ring clearances, all other recipricating parts are kept in a narrow operating tolerance with liquid cooling, which allows higher revs and more longevity for components. You are definitely right that today's bikes need liquid cooling for packaging, but I think they also need it for the tolerances that allow sky-high RPMs and consistent compression. Question: Are race engines built "loose" because there is no time for break in to remove any material, or is if for performance reasons? | ||
| Spatten1 |
ps Blake, I'm sure you know that cylinder inside diameter increases with heat, but many on the board may believe that the cylinder ID gets smaller when warmed up. I just wanted to clarify that for those that are not geeks about such things as I am. | ||
| Sarodude |
Blake- I imagine that, from a strictly technical perspective, your comments WRT air vs water cooling are correct. Problem is this: A large part of the reason behind air cooling a bike motor has to do with aesthetic concerns. A significant portion of air cooled pundits also brag about the greater simplicity of an air cooled mill. Given two of those rather prime directives, how would you propose anyone implement an aesthetically pleasing, simple, reliable, maintainable series of ducts, baffles, fans, shutters, thermostats, etc to control the manner in which a motor is air cooled? Ever work on a proper air cooled vw motor? One that has all the ducting (engine tin-ware as they call it) and the thermostat & shutters (which all hot rodding jackasses feel compelled to remove 'cause they knew better than Ferry) still in place? There is NOTHING about that setup that ever made me think it was easier to work on than water. I still love type 1 VW motors despite the fragile nature of the cooling systen. I've raced in classes where we had TM (dunno if they're related to KTM) 125 2 strokes available in air and watercooled versions. To the best of my knowledge, the two styles of motors were nearly identical in their porting, compression, etc. The air cooled motors were far more fragile than the water cooled ones. Comparisons like that are really hard to come by - and this is still highly anecdotal and is just one data point which probably means nothing. Despite everything I say above, all the bikes in our stable (fxd, xl, s2, and 3 blasts) are air cooled motors with jugs that just hang in the breeze. Didn't say I didn't like 'em or wouldn't buy 'em. I just think your air vs water arguments are a bit TOO rooted in tech / engineering and not necessarily considerate of more real world factors and considerations. -Saro | ||
| Wsplrll |
Wsplrll, Go for it. I bought a '03 XB9S with 350 demo or shop miles on it and it also had the race kit installed by the dealer from day one so I know it was probably wrung out. 20,000+ miles and no problems. Thanks Krassh. I think it should be no problem either. | ||
| M1combat |
"Given two of those rather prime directives, how would you propose anyone implement an aesthetically pleasing, simple, reliable, maintainable series of ducts, baffles, fans, shutters, thermostats, etc to control the manner in which a motor is air cooled? " No offense intended at all... Please go take a look at the cooling system of an XB. It works exceedingly well AND looks cool (mostly because scoops are cool and you can't see the rest). | ||
| Sarodude |
I've seen the cooling system of an XB. Can it SHUT OFF cooling air? -Saro | ||
| M1combat |
Not in the least. I would hesitate to believe that with the engine's current configuration that it actually needs to. I see your point, but it's really somewhat beyond the scope of the intended use yes? | ||
| Sarodude |
Personally, I think cooling is really the LEAST of an air cooled motor's problems...... I've long believed that OVER-COOLING (and pre-mature cooling) is our enemy. Example: I live in LA. There are cold mornings here when my Dyna never warms up on a 15 minute ride to work. I don't wanna subject the S2 to those conditions and I don't really wanna commute on it anyway. Point is that 15 minutes ought to do it - but it doesn't. I'm only talking about temps in the upper 30's - low 40's. That's really not even that cold! I shudder to think what happens to folks who see freezing, single digit, or sub-zero temps who have a 10-20 minute commute. Without the ability to really regulate (as opposed to simply encourage it when things get a little toasty) some of this stuff will always haunt the air-cooled v2. Once again - I am NOT dissing the motors, the bikes, Erik Buell, etc. at all. I just don't buy that we'll ever see a publicly available air cooled motor that's as thermally & dimensionally stable, quick to warm up, etc as a water cooled motor. I simply believe that the effort and complexity it would take would be at least as bad as the water cooling shenanigans. -Saro | ||
| Fullpower |
i keep a small towel stuffed in the oil cooler scoop on my XB,only remove it on hot days ( three weeks in july) | ||
| M1combat |
You make most of a valid point there for sure. I tend to let my bike warm up for two to three full minutes before I drop it into gear even in the summer. That's just what you do with an air cooled engine. keep in mind that an air cooled engine warms up faster than a water cooled one too. | ||
| Blackbelt |
try living in Michgan w/ a 72 mile commute.. lol I start riding in the begining of April (sometimes late March), just depends when the snow stops falling, and the salt trucks stop running. when i leave the house it will prolly be around 30 degrees. You should see the looks i get on I-75 on the way to work.. My bike takes FOREVER to warm up but she usually does about 15 miles into my trip, then she warms me up THANK GOD FOR AIR COOLED! liquid cooled i would prolly have frost bite. (my fault).. | ||
| Sarodude |
We are SO getting off topic - but...
I believe that to be true only in some situations - not all. For example, let's take a conventionally watercooled motor (thermostats & the like). Let's ride this bike & our air cooled twins on a 30 degree morning. Let's give 'em 30-60 seconds to warm up - a reasonable warm up considering not wanting to disturb the neighbors too badly at 5am and whatever time it takes to don helmet, gloves, etc. Now let's go for a ride. The air cooled bike has NOTHING stopping the cooling. The watercooled bike has the thermostat to limit the cooling water. Now, I don't have identical bikes with identical motors save for the cooling system and I can't try this test out myself. However, my slowyota and Loli's Saturn warm up within 1.5 miles of leaving the house DOWNHILL (ie - not a crapload of load). My air-cooled VW van (even with the cooling thermostat & shutters installed - which had a limited effect on slowing cooling) took 3 or 4 city miles - when it WASN'T downhill. Once again, this is not a controlled experiment. However, search your gut and see what it tells you in the above example. Blake is probably working up some numbers right now!  -Saro (Message edited by sarodude on November 29, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
My point is just that the medium involved in cooling the engine is not necessarily the governing factor in how well a cooling system performs. I have no desire to argue the rest other than to ask how you might compare the complexity of a liquid cooled system to that of a ducted forced-air one? Is there one very major advantage to an air-cooled system whereby it is far superior to any liquid cooling system? Can you guess what advantage that might be? | ||
| Sarodude |
Ducted forced air - like in Buell's current setup on the XBs? Clearly, the current XB setup is simpler. Point I'm trying to make is that one that takes it to the level of control that watercooled setups have would likely not be significantly less complex - and could be more complex.
I mean, what's better - $20 in quarters or a $20 bill? If you're going to the laundromat or the arcade, probably the quarters. If you're a 103 year old man with an achey hip, you probably would prefer the compactness and light weight of the bill. Advantages are relevant to one's needs. Maybe it's that the cooling medium is cooler and you have a greater temperature delta and possibly greater overall cooling potential. Maybe it's that you're driving / riding / flying across the desert and a leak or boilover is NOT an option. Maybe it's because you're one of those odd motoring chefs who enjoys roasting a stuffed goose between your cylinders. I dunno... -Saro I didn't get enough turkey leftovers on Thursday. I wonder if it shows... | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah... Maybe if you coast down hills during your warmup procedure the water cooled bike MIGHT warm up faster. Go figure... I actually DO that . I let the bike warm up for two to three minutes and then I push off out of my driveway and coast for about 1/3 of a mile ... | ||
| Neutron21 |
sorry blake but where i live and where i work are not public information and i dont think its relevant. but i noticed that 9 times out of 10 when you are beat you start checking out how many posts a guy has, where he is from, when he joined and so on as a way to turn debate into a personal attack. stick to the debate and pull your head in. now i have to get back to work and fit a race kit to an XB, thus voiding your argument that the XB engine comply's with EPA emissions laws. Oh well it does until you fit the race kit then its worse then a jap bike, emissions wise. perhaps the race muffler should come with a cat converter to help with the emissions. | ||
| Blake |
•••• off "Neutron." Obviously you are not who you pretend to be. Your IP's range from Kuala Lumpur to China. Congratulations! You be banned. Again. Saro, The big advantage of air cooling is that you cannot overheat the cooling medium and thus virtually never lose an engine due to overheating. You'll certainly never be stranded for having a hole in a fin like you would with a radiator. (Message edited by Blake on November 29, 2005) | ||
| Martya |
well, i have been reading very carefully. the FACT is that air cooled motor's have limiting factor's on their ability to cool as efficently as water cooled engines. ambient temp for one, winter temp's in new york are slightly different from temp's here in the arabian desert in july -august. like up to 40.c different, controlling cylinder temps is only a small part of the equation, more critical's the combustion chamber temp, this is where water cooling excel's . with a low tech, moderately powerfull engine air cooling is fine, but the more horse you want, water cooling's the only way to go. one of the finest air cooled engines i have seen, is the DUETZ diesel, made in inline 3's-4's-5's-6's, v8's, v10's. these thing's will run and run. but if you want high horses, cleaner emission's, quieter engines you have to run water cooling. me well i admire the new hi tech engines whether it's an inline jap 4 putting out nearly 200hp per litre, or a CAT diesel putting out 45hp per litre. the truth is that i have a great admiration for the thing's that have stood the test of time, harley motor's are one, ducati air cooled desmo's, even old diesel's too. so yes, water cooling is more efficent, but it doesn't mean to say we have to like it!. as for knowing where i am and what i do, no problem, i live in a very hot n sandy place called dubai, as for what i do, maintain approx a 1000+ pieces of heavy equipment, truck's etc(with a little help). so i do need to know a little about cooling systems. as for the original thread, why would anyone worry about buying a buell or anything else in this day and age, it's all GOOD!, oh and their's a thing called warranty.  | ||
| Sgthigg |
Damnn.... thats awesome Blake you got to show me how to do that one day.  | ||
| Spatten1 |
Martya: Well written. | ||
| Blake |
Maybe the following teaser will give you something to think about? True or false?... The most powerful high-performance engines in the world are air-cooled and operate over a wide temperature range far exceeding anything a motorcycle engine will ever see. | ||
| Blake |
Martya, Well said, again. |
