| Author | Message | ||
     Buellnewbie |
What's everyone's thoughts on slip-ons vs. full systems for an XB12? | ||
| Mou5e |
i think it is really hard to beat the power delivery of the stock header. and power gains to money spent on the full systems is laughable. the full systems sound real mean though. | ||
| M1combat |
I don't think you'll find a better header than the stock unit. The only one that seems worth while wrt a full system is a Micron, but the system is quiet and I really don't see it making the power gains that a stock header/Drummer combo will give you. | ||
| Scitz |
Unless your porting and polishing the heads the bigger after market pipes probably won't make that big of a difference, imo. If you ceramic coat the inside and out of the header it should help increase air flow for a lot cost. | ||
| Babyhuey |
hey don, you really shouldn't be so hasty to make judgements about other systems that you have no first hand knowledge off. granted the drummer/stock header do sound and perform great,but how do you know how the micron will perform?do you really think that a company as big and successful as micron wouldn't spend a all that time and money on r&d if it wouldn't work?I know for a fact how the system performs and sounds.i don't feel that 103db is all that quiet,do you?granted it not as loud of a force pipe,but i for one find them to be obnoxious,and yes i have heard them. | ||
| M1combat |
I didn't say I knew how it would perform. I said I don't see it making the gains that you'll get with a stock header and Drummer. I haven't made any judgments. If it does, great.  | ||
| Buellj79 |
M1COMBAT SAID: but the system is quiet and I really don't see it making the power gains that a stock header/Drummer combo will give you. Don: I would say the same thing if I was given a muffler no charge for testing. I think you should stick with what you have first hand seen and heard, and let the pipe go through its testing before making "ANY" comments on sound or performance. It's not fair to the distributor or potential buyers. MOU5E: I have to agree with you there, but let's see what happens. Scitz: Ceramic coating isnt all that expensive, but I do think that some head work and a meatier cam would benefit nicely. (Message edited by buellj79 on September 28, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
Jeremy... I wouldn't say ANYTHING other than what I felt whether I was given a muffler for free or not. Maybe that's just me... Again... I didn't say "The Micron system will not perform as well as a stock header/Drummer combo." I said I don't see it. I stated my opinion. If I'm wrong, great... we have another quality choice. If I'm not wrong... Great. Either way I'm happy to see Micron giving us some love. I really like the look of the Micron system (I'm very interested in seeing what the bluing process does to the hydro-formed "Micron" on the pipe. I think it'll look nice. I do wish that we could buy a header that's compatible with existing slip-on pipes though. | ||
| Xb12rene |
I have a full system from one of the sponsors and I'm very happy with it. I chose it over a slip-on, because I know that my bike will grow into a XB14 after the warranty. I have some dyno results in the knowledge vault, not the big numbers, but I didn't dyno the bike before the changes, so I don't how many HP I gained (or not). I also think that the stock headers are hard to beat performance wise on a internal unchanged engine. Therefore the question slip-on or full system is a question what you thinking to change on your bike. Right now the Micron system gives the slip-ons a hard run for the money, with their introduction price, something to consider too. Rene | ||
| Buellj79 |
 (Message edited by buellj79 on September 29, 2005) (Message edited by buellj79 on October 01, 2005) | ||
| Kuddyxbs |
Is it just me, or is everyone getting a lil on the nasty side when posting "their opinions"? Why is everyone so snippy these days? Why cant we all just ride and be happy  | ||
| M1combat |
  Anyway... It's just my opinion. No, I don't know if that Drummer dyno is tuned or not. I would very much like to see a tuned Micron dyno though or at the least the A/F plot. Anyway, my opinion based off of NO ACTUAL FACTS, JUST SOME GOOD OLD REDNECK INTUITION... I'm not trying to slam anyones products. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
I understood ya Combat. This is a discussion board, which in my interpretation means opinions are welcome as well as facts. I'm interested in seeing how these systems stack up against eachother as well. On a side note. Is there an easier way to find dyno charts in the KV other than combing through it all thread by thread? For example, say I wanted to see a multiple dynos of a 12 with a race kit. Then I wanted to see multiple dynos of a 12 stock. Are or could these be organized somehow? | ||
| M1combat |
Well... It would take proper labeling by the poster... | ||
| Buellj79 |
J  (Message edited by buellj79 on October 01, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
I'm pretty sure they're still working on it. Last I heard was something like late October... I could be wrong though. For the record, that date is only my opinion and I can't point you to any hard facts as such. I could probably find the post, but I don't have the time ATM. | ||
| Buellj79 |
 (Message edited by buellj79 on September 29, 2005) (Message edited by buellj79 on October 01, 2005) | ||
| Buellin_ri |
Maybe we should have lawyers read our posts before we post them. That way there are no misunderstandings. The following post is a nonlegalal binding opinion and by no means means anything forth with and fourscore, no animals where harmed in writing this post, maybe a few egos.}} | ||
| M1combat |
"Too much" is a relative term. I think what you meant was that I talk too much for your tastes. Stop reading my posts? Just trying to help with your problem is all... | ||
| Buellj79 |
 (Message edited by buellj79 on October 01, 2005) | ||
| Glitch |
Well this is a discussion board. So discuss. Opinions are welcome, everyone's. The only "opinions" no one cares for are the ones that lead to fighting, pissing contests, trolling...ect. Could imagine how quiet this board would be with no one stating opinion? If you would like a thread that states fact, and fact only, start a thread that states that in the beginning. This thread was started with What's everyone's thoughts on slip-ons vs. full systems for an XB12?. That to me is asking for opinion. Are we clear? The last thing I want to see is early "winter type posting" where everyone has Parked Motorcycle Syndrome. Thanks for your continued cooperation. On a personal note, I hold Don's opinion pretty high. He's been around the block a few times and is a long time poster. I don't always agree with him, but his opinion isn't any less valid to me because of that. | ||
| Dstrat1 |
How does the micron stack up against the drummer or race kit sound wise...I had both the drummer and race kit but they were too loud for me....but the stock pipe is still to quiet..... | ||
| Blake |
Please post all future threads like this in the applicable Knowledge Vault topic (Engine - Exaust). We'll be moving this one there soon. Thanks, Blake  172689 | ||
| Indy_bueller |
I'm told that the Micron puts out 103db at 3000 rpm. Their rep, Steve, sent me a sound file but I can't get it to play. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I have a number of the in stock at the introductory price of $699, which is likely to go up. I've been hesitant sell them here as I have been requesting Dyno + A/F data from Micron for a while and haven't received it. I've seen some data now that looks pretty good. A/F curves on a 12 with a stock ECM that were never above 14.5:1 and mostly centered around 13.5:1 above 4K, top HP numbers of 96HP with a beautiful torque curve. I'm still ramping up some of my own testing in conjunction with the Direct Link Fueler, but if the curves I saw are any indication, there won't be a whole lot of adjustments necessary. I'd post the plots here but they aren't mine to post. Once I get them directly from Micron, I'll post them. I've sold a few so far but haven't been recommending them as of yet for lack of data to base such a recommendation on. Based on what I've seen, I'd say that these are very likely an excellent pipe and worth every cent of that intro price. My uly is likely getting one installed next week. I want to get O2 bungs welded onto both header pipes first to support my own testing prior to mounting it, and I'll likely be trimming the tips for belt clearance. Al Al | ||
| Al_lighton |
Hmm, that first sentence was SUPPOSED to say: "I have a number of the Micron Full Systems in stock at the introductory price of $699, which is likely to go up." I've got several in stock, not sure how long I can get them at this price. The design is quite nice, build quality is pretty good, but the welds aren't on par with those seen on the Ti-Force. But the word I get is that in back to back comparisons, it significantly outperforms the Ti-force. I don't have the backup data for that statement, so consider it anecdotal/hearsay. But I believe the source. Al | ||
| Indy_bueller |
Al, Care to discuss the "Direct Link Fueler" more? Pete | ||
| Al_lighton |
I've been playing with it with an "expendable" ECM. I've successfully read the maps, modified the maps, uploaded the modified maps, downloaded the modified maps, etc. The basic functionality is seemingly working, and I think it's going to be a great product. There were a couple bugs in it still, and I've fed that back to the programmers who are fixing them. The manual is in left field, so I'll need to generate some user manual info as well. What I haven't done is run an engine on the modified map ECM yet. I haven't gotten my wideband O2 data acquisition system working yet, it keeps crashing VDSTS when I connect it. So I'm hesitant to fire up the engine on the modified ECM without that feedback path working. I'm being a bit paranoid, but it is scary easy to blow holes in your pistons with this kind of capability so I'm proceeding carefully. The tool provides the ability to tweak the front and rear fuel maps, spark maps, and accel tables, as well as the redline RPM setting. I am planning on running it on a full capability race dyno set up for fuel mapping in early December, so even if my wideband acquisition system isn't working, I'll still be able to proceed. The dyno I'm testing on locally here tomorrow is a WOT dyno without the brake package, so it isn't suitable for Fueler tuning. Like everything I work on, it seems to all take longer than I think it's going to... Al | ||
| Oldog |
Al: I missed the direct link fueler info some where will you amplify? is this a fully programmable EFI unit to replace the @$@#$%# VDO boxes?, { salaivating here} like Bolt in? did you mean Expandable? VDSTS compatible (I can use the tool that I have allready?) quivering now...please tell us more.. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Jim, It is a two part piece of SW that can manipulate the Fuel, Spark, Accel tables in the stock or race ECM. It does not replace the ECM. One part of the system is the SW for doing the actual programming, and it has some but not all of the VDSTS capabilities. The second is a USB Key dongle that, upon first use, becomes locked electronically to the ECM it is connected to. The basic use of the SW is that you hook your computer up to the diagnostic port with the USB Key in place. You read the ECM, it populates the tables with the values in the ECM as programmed by Buell. Then you manipulate those tables on your PC and then upload them to the ECM. It doesn't change the ECM algorithms, it merely changes the lookup tables that those algorithms use. You can always reload the stock map back in and you'll be right where you started. It should work equally well with the stock or race ECM, though I have not yet hooked it to anything other than an 03 XB9S stock ECM. It should work with Tuber ECMs as well, and has been tested with one by the programmers and they think they might have an issue there that they are still debugging. I think it's the holy grail of fuellers if it all pans out as I think it is going to. It makes Power commanders and the like things of the past. It should be very powerful, but with that power comes a lot of responsibility. Used improperly, one can blow up their bike in a heartbeat with something like this, and I have no doubt it will occur. That is why I'm moving cautiously with it's release. In time, the dyno tuning centers will be equipped with the tuning SW, and users will only need to buy the Key for their particular ECM. But initial users, and all the DIY'ers, will need to buy both the SW and the Key for their ECM since the tuning centers won't have it. With VDSTS and a wideband O2 monitoring system hooked into the second port of VDSTS, it should be possible to ride your bike, log time correlated RPM, Throttle position, and A/F info, and then with the Direct Link SW upload the changes where lean or rich conditions are measured. All without ever being on a dyno. But so far, I haven't gotten the O2 system to work right with VDSTS to realized that dream. I'll do my initial tweaking with a dyno based wideband system for now and confirm all is well with the A/F inputs into VDSTS afterwards as that gets debugged. Al |
