| Author | Message | ||
     Jlnance |
Thanks to everyone who has answered my trail braking questions in the past. I've got a few more.  Let me summarize what I know so we all start on the same page. Trail braking is the practice of using the (front?) brake while the bike is leaned over in a turn. If you learned to ride from the MSF, you were probably taught not to do this. The MSF teaches you to straighten the bike and then apply the brakes. The reasons for this are: 1 - The skills required to trail brake are beyond those possessed by the target audience of the classes. 2 - Improper trail braking is a very effective way to drop a bike 3 - Braking requires traction, which reduces the amount of traction available for leaning the bike. Thus if you could make it around the corner with the brakes applied, you could have made it around the corner by leaning further and not braking. Given this and the fact that I actually have dropped a bike due to braking in a turn, I make it a point to always use the MSF straighten & stop method, no matter how small the turn. This isn't because I fear I will drop the bike braking on slight turns, but because I want to develop good habits. This has served me well. Never the less, the limits of straighten and stop are becoming more and more apparent to me. The time when it is most annoying is when following a car down an exit ramp, and the car brakes. Blind corners are another example. I know that skilled riders DO trail brake. I'm just not clear on how skilled you need to be before it becomes a viable option. My questions, in no particular order: - Is 1 year and 10,000 miles enough experience to consider learning this? - Is learning to trail brake going to make me a safer rider than if I put the same effort into refining my current straighten & stop technique? - The force vectors on the tire for the leaning and braking components of traction are perpendicular to each other, thus the resultant vector is less than the sum of the magnitude of the two components. So is the logic about just leaning the bike further really true? Thanks - Jim | ||
| Reepicheep |
A few other "wrinkles"... On my M2, trail braking made the bike FAR better behaved on turns. It would load up the suspension, taking up some of the slack and probably shortening the wheelbase, a basically just settle the bike down for a turn. I used it for every turn. On the 9sx, the suspension needs none of the above, I can do just about anything I want, trail brake or just rip through the turn, and the bike just behaves perfectly. Also, for the "traction pie" consumption... The further a bike is leaned, the less suspension travel you have. At a 90 degree lean (impossible, but you get what I mean), you have zero suspension travel, the only suspension you really have at that point is the flex of the sidewall. At a 45 degree angle (not unusual), you are somewhere between "full travel" and "no travel". So on one hand, that would lend credence to the "straighten the bike up first, then brake like hell" MSF theory. Loosing traction on the rear on a hard turn means lowside (been there, done that). Loosing traction on the rear going straight just means a tire chirp. On the front, it is more sensitive, but I would still MUCH rather loose traction on the front going straight forward then on a turn. On the "anti-MSF approach" side of the coin, you follow a completely different trajectory with the "stand it up and stop it" approach. Said trajectory may not have very much "straight" parts before you either find yourself left of center, or off the road. If you are (for example) in a downhill diminishing radius right hand blind corner, the "straignten up and then stop" approach will take you squarely across the double yellow and into oncoming traffic. Trail braking could allow you to keep a curved line while still bleeding off significant speed. It also confounds the whole "if you could stop you could have leaned further and made the turn" theory, if the turn is bumpy, less lean and braking might be better then lots of lean and no brakes, completely independent of the traction aspect of the equation. If your tire has been launched into the air by a bump and you have no suspension to stick it back down quickly, you have ZERO traction. You ate your pie. One other comment is the behavior of the bike transitioning. I had one low side, and another incident that but for the grace of God *should* have been a lowside, that were arguably *caused* by the MSF straighten up and drop anchor approach. Both were downhill turns with either "cloaked" diminshing radius or unexpected debris. I got into them, realized I had too much speed, and straightened up and dropped anchor. The first one was about 8 inches less pavement then I required, and I was *almost* at a stop when the front tire hit the gravel off the road and I flopped to the lowside. The second was not even close, I probably left the road at 10 mph, but by the Grace of God, the grass grip of the Scorpions, and the low unsprung weight of my front wheel, I was able to just turn the bike and ride right back onto the road. Never even stopped. As a result of these accidents (I don't claim the second was not a crash, even though I never quite managed to drop the bike), I went and practiced a new maneuver in a parking lot until I got "muscle memory" around it. It is kind of a hybrid approach... Go pretty quick towards a fixed mark on pavement. At that mark, start braking very aggressively, basically until the rear tire has just started to lift off the pavement. Continue to a second marked point, where you translate from full brake to very hard lean. You must simultaneously let off the brakes and crank down on the lean into a HARD evasive maneuver, either a full U turn, or at least a full lane change. It is a SERIOIUS test of the dynamic handling characteristics of your bike. The Cyclone was a mess doing this, it was flopping all over the place and by the time I had enough control to feel comfortable really cranking into the turn, I might have well have just continued the panic stop. The 9sx handles this beautifully, and the only limit seems to be my nerves and skill. The transition from panic stop to panic evade is virtually flawless. The reason I practice this is that being able to do it would have avoided two of the three "accidents" I have had in 35k+ street miles on a motorcycle. I have since used the maneuver once in anger since then, it worked perfectly, though there is no way to say for sure if just leaning would have been much worse. Just stopping would NOT have worked, I would have been left of center at least, and very probably have gone head first into the little miami river. | ||
| Jlnance |
in a downhill diminishing radius right hand blind corner, the "straignten up and then stop" approach will take you squarely across the double yellow and into oncoming traffic. LOL - Funny you should mention that. Thats exactly the situation that caused me to start this thread, though I was trying to save face by not mentioning it.  I did cross over the double yellow and managed to stop right before I got to the far edge of the road. So thats -1 for MSF. I also managed to lock up the rear wheel in the process, so if I had been leaned over I would have low sided into the oncomming lane. Thats probably -2 for anti-MSF, -3 if I had slide off the side of the mountain. Either way I don't like negative scores, so I need to practice something. I'm just trying to figure out what. I like the excercise you suggested, I'll give it a try. | ||
| Henrik |
Since Bill put a lot of pros and cons so skillfully, I'll just give *my* answers to your questions: - I think 10K is plenty of miles under your belt to start practicing skills in addition to what MSF taught you. I've had an MC license since 1980, and only started trying to progress in my riding skills when I started doing track days in 1998. 18 years of doing the same thing over every year still only amounts to 1 year of training. And I know I should be getting out on the bike and practice in parking lots much more than I do. As long as you do your research and get the principles of the the technique down and then start practicing in a controlled environment, then it can only be a good thing to learn new techniques. In his book Sport Riding Techniques, Nick Ienatsch mentions learning to use the rear brake to stabilize the bike entering turns. Another good technique - supposedly - to know. And the reason I like the "said to be weak" Buell rear brake. I'm still trying to "weaken" the rear brake on the SV enough that I dare start practicing. - Safer rider; sure. The more techniques you are able to employ, the more options you have when you need them. - Depending on your pace on the street, I think most new street bikes are perfectly able to "just" lean over further and make that turn. Trouble is we as riders often are not  My personal main trouble areas are: 1) being too tight on the bars 2) not looking enough up and through the turn 3) target fixation. Henrik | ||
| Reepicheep |
My biggest problems in order... 1) Target fixation... 1) Target fixation... 1) Target fixation... | ||
| Crashm1 |
Here's what I do 1. Scare myself half to death while riding 2. Buy and read everything I can find on proper techniques to control a motorcycle. 3. Reread everything 4. Start applying and practicing one thing at a time. 5. Start forcing the new stuff into my muscle memory as Reep says by drilling over and over in parking lots and county roads. 6. Scare the **** out of myself and repeat. In regards braking I practice both trail braking with both brakes (although mostly with the rear to settle the bike) as well as quick stops in corners. I'm also concentrating heavily on learning how to use the brakes the same way on corner entry as I use the throttle from mid corner out. My biggest problems are imprecise reference points, ham fisted brake application and rolling off the throttle when the survival reactions kick in. All three of these things only happen at stupid speeds for a public road and if I were less addicted to adreneline or smarter I wouldn't be pushing 8/10ths on the street. You know I really ought to go to some track days next year or get an SV to go racing. | ||
| Mikej |
Accidents happen when they happen, they do not check your odometer to see if you are ready for them, they happen when they happen. Every ride counts as practice for the next ride. | ||
| Roly |
hi jinance, any extra skill is a good thing,trail braking in dry maybe but not to hard ,bikes will stand up ,or try to , not a good thing to practice in the wet, god forbid. touch of rear brake in corner will tighten line if in trouble ,try in the corner , 1 with throttle on , 1 with off ,same corner though. better forward planning is the key,can always speed up if to slow , keith codes books on road racing skills are informative. twist of the wrist 2 for road riding, moto x books are cool to all about weighting bike in right places.happy safe riding, roly x instructor 18 years | ||
| Gowindward |
"Twist of the Wrist Vol.2" by Keith Code. A great book at looking at and understanding your survival reactions and riding past them. | ||
| Henrik |
pushing 8/10ths on the street Crash - don't mean to get on your case, 'cause I do it too ... but: there was an interesting article in either Sport Rider or Cycle World recently about the 80% "rule." Bottom line is, that we most likely ride much closer to the "edge" than the 80% we think we're doing. Try turning it around - when you think you're doing 8/10ths can you honestly go 20% faster? I know I can't. Just something to think about when you're out there playing. Henrik | ||
| Niceharleystuff |
Sport Rider has a few articles that you may find interesting. Here are a few links... Trail Braking Brake Dancing Riding Skills Series | ||
| Spike |
Jim, You're definitely far enough along in your riding to start working with trail braking. The basic concept is fairly simple as long as you understand the traction circle. Basically, if you're not out of lean angle, you still have room for some braking. The better you understand how much lean angle and how much braking you have available, the better you'll become at blending them. Conversely, if you're not familiar with how much of each you have available it can be tricky to blend them successfully. That's the one precaution I'd apply to Reep's exercise- it may be a good idea to practice panic stops before practicing panic stops followed by sharp steering input. I have Keith Code's A Twist of the Wrist 1 and 2 along with the Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles. You're welcome to borrow them. Mike L. | ||
| Jlnance |
Niceharleystuff - Thanks for the links, they are very good. Spike - Thanks, it's nice to get an opinion from someone who has actually seen me ride. I do practice panic stops on a regular basis. I have one of Keith Code's books. Let me see if I can find it. I didn't know he had more than 1 out. I my take you up on the offer for the other one. | ||
| Crashm1 |
Henrick, I saw and read that article as well. It made me think and it has caused me to slow down some, so yes I think I'm riding at 80 to 85% of my limits. I don't like crashing it always hurts the next day. I have a pretty good feel for traction from racing cars and work hard to leave some in reserve. I admit I do occasionally ride somewhat over my head, usually trying to keep my friend Walter in sight (he's really fast for an old guy) and sometimes all by myself when trying to figure out what the hell Keith Code is talking about. Heck I still have 1/4" chicken strips on my tires and haven't ground a foot peg or knee yet. I'm not getting rid of them till I do a track day either. My significant other helps as well because she is new to riding bikes and I really, really don't want her to crash trying to keep up with me it happened once and that was enough. | ||
| Henrik |
Crash; yep, crashing sucks. And I'm realizing I'm not healing up as quickly as I used to, so crashing hurts not only the next day, but the following week or more as well Henrik | ||
| Blue02m2 |
Rear brake bad! Granted I've done zero track time so I'd rate my skill level in the average range. I've practiced using the rear brake to tighten turns ... I've also lowsided a bike when a car pulled out in front of me in a blind turn. My survival instincts pounded the rear brake - I would have been fine if I would have stayed on the front brake. Weak rear brakes on buells? I've locked up the rear several times on a couple of different Cyclones when someone scared me into stupidity ... luckly except for the above mentioned lowside I was flying straight and level in the other instances. I wish antilocks were an option. After watching Keith Code's first TOTW DVD I've started practicing NOT using the rear brake just because I cannot trust myself not to POUND it if someone surprises me. I now have a habit of putting my toe UNDER the brake pedal when entering blind turns. | ||
| Henrik |
Brandon; might it be that since you're not used to using and modulating the rear, when it's "panic" time you pound rather than modulate, such as you're obviously able to do with the front brake? I think that with practice - to the point of it becoming reflex - the rear brake can become a useful tool. Henrik (who's not good with the rear brake either ) | ||
| Sportyeric |
My Sportster has a far stronger rear brake than the S2. But also better feel. I always use it first to "settle" the suspension. And I'm trying to get the same effect going with the Buell. My route home from work involves regularly using a few freeway entry ramps. Now I know some are oily and sandy and such so you have to be cautious but mine are always clean. If I get to them when they are clear I can almost get a knee on the ground if I'm really feeling bold. Most times I go for less than that and sometimes, if there's no-one close behind, I'll try rapid deceleration while I'm leaning into it. That's my practice area because I've been going around these same turns several times daily for over a decade. I think it good practice for those surprise decreasing radius turns or debris on the road after a blind corner situations. On a four-leaf clover ramp system, you can keep going around and around til the police notice you. | ||
| Rick_a |
If you practice trail braking keep in mind that just a little bit of moisture, grit, oil, and even a paint line can put you down. | ||
| Sportyeric |
Operating on the assumption that you're at 80%, you can either use the extra twenty to lean harder and make the turn without reducing velocity or you can use that 20% to trail brake down to a better velocity. Or stand it up and hope you have enough room. It depends on the situation. Best to practice for all. So to answer the initial question, I'd say that refraining from practicing trail-braking so as not to develop a bad habit would be an error. I think it makes a smoother rider. I think a year of riding is enough seat time to be practicing it. I haven't a clue about the vectors. But Blake could tell you. | ||
| Bomber |
operating on instincts and muscle memory is fine -- to a point -- while it's key to practice survival techniques for those moments we all face on the road, it's equally important to be more than a one trick pony while a complete and utter avoidance of the rear brake is just fine, thank you very much, on the pavement, if you get into even the slightest amount of gravel, your muscle memory will have you on your butt PDQ -- for those times, you should have an alternate hard-wired response to stimuli practice all of your techniques, including trail braking, often and thoroughly -- you'll be surprised at how little effort on the rear brake will produce a noticable reaction from the bike -- just like the throttle, the brake controlas are not digital, but analog, and can be feathered for anything from a slight lessening of forward momentum to OMYGOODNESS slowing -- you should be capable of both, and all in between, without a great deal of thought, I'm thinkin besides, practicing this stuff can make your commute more interesting, sayin? | ||
| Jlnance |
besides, practicing this stuff can make your commute more interesting I love yellow lights.  | ||
| Lovematt |
I have found the rear brake is useful in the turns both slow and fast. What I do if the turn is one that doesn't require a total throttle shutoff is leave a little throttle on while trail braking...this "softens" the braking a little bit but more importantly it allows for a smoother application of throttle coming out of the turn. The other thing I find most riders do when first trying trail braking is to lift their foot off the peg...that means the brake pedal becomes the peg and therefore going over bumps causes your foot to oscillate up and down. This in turn causes you to lose the ability to modulate the brake and makes for some interesting moments. If you keep your foot on the peg (pushing down on them a bit) then it is easier to modulate the brake since your foot will stay put a little better. | ||
| Henrik |
leave a little throttle on while trail braking Matt; I do the same thing. Hadn't thought about it 'till you mentioned it. Thanks. Henrik | ||
| Steve899 |
Hi Jim, thought I would put in my 2cents. Buells are new to me, but I have been riding motorcycles for 33yrs, for the last 4 yrs I have been Roadracing them. Until I roadraced I had no Idea how much traction a tire can have. Tire grip is related to tire Temperture. the edges of your tire can be 40F cooler than the center if you are riding in a staight line. One time in a race I was trail braking into a very tight 40 mph turn (decreasing radius) and a slower rider in front of me hit his brakes hard in a panic, I was very close to him when he did that, I was fully leaned over at about a 45 degree angle, and I too Stabbed my brakes so I wouldn't hit him. What happened next surprised me, the ft tire held its grip, but the heavy quick braking stood my bike almost straight up. I managed to slow it and continue the turn ok, but I didn't know hard on the brakes could do that. The other experience I had on the race track (in practice), was coming into a turn under moderate trail braking with a worn out ft tire, I was braking all the way to the apex of the turn (Full Lean Angle) and the moment I got back on the gas I lost the front end completely, which made for a nice 60mph low side into the grass. My view on trail braking is this, it creates more contact patch due to increased weight from a center of gravity shift, the trick is getting back on the gas smooth enough so as not to lose the ft end. I realize that street riding and track riding are different due to the different conditions each one has. Trail braking is a valuable asset to have, but learning it well is difficult on the street, on the track it comes very natural and quickly. On the street before I every raced I never trail braked ( Too scared I guess)but, now I trail brake a little on the street but not very hard, there always seems to be an oncoming car right at the pt that I could lose the front so I take it easy on trail braking for street use. One more point to make, I Never use the rear brake on a light weight sport bike (600 lb cruiser yes) under heavy braking the back wheel get too light, I have seen racers right in front of me skid the back tire and when they released the rear brake they Hi Sided. I know many people use the rear brake and if it works for you keep doing what your doing. From time to time a street rider will find themselves coming into a turn way too fast,with too much brakes and an excessive lean angle and yet somehow they make it through the turn. For a Roadracer that experience is every turn. IMHO the track is the best and safest place to learn trail braking. Those are my thoughts hope I didn't offend anyone. Steve | ||
| Blake |
I thought "trail braking" was when you go hiking and intentionally mess up the nice perfect path that the Scouts just finished grooming the weekend before. Geeze Steve! I'm offended you never took the time to explain that to me as you were flying by me at the track!  | ||
| Steve899 |
Hey Blake, I tried to tell you but you trail braked right by me and the boy scouts on that fast turning Buell. Steve | ||
| Blake |
Yeah, I think I remember that. I was leaving the paddock and heading to the track entrance right? Had to get aggressive to get by the kids on the pocket bikes for a better grid position during the parade lap. | ||
| Nutsosane |
Thank you all very much for this thread. Typically I refrain from using the rear brake on the street as I have had several "moments" due to improper muscle memories. I frequently see the tell tale black strip of a rear tire skid ending in a stain on the roadway. That typically denotes a rider using the rear brake to stop for a deer in the road. Resulting in both parties losing. For the road I'll be continuing 98% front brake; hopefully a spring track day will help teach me how to meter in the rear. Again, thank you all for the posts and keep 'em "fast $ loose". NUTS | ||
| Anonymous |
Assuming a friction circle, cornering traction and braking traction add as a sum of the squares. That is, if you're on a surface with a coefficient of friction of 1, you can corner at 80 percent of max while braking at 60 percent of max and just be operating on the circle's edge . . . That isn't intuitive, but .8 squared plus .6 squared = 1. That generally means you can do a lot more braking when leaned over than you might at first expect. |
