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Jackbequick
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 08:44 am: | 
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Peter - I got started with Buells, an M2, and the KV earlier this year. That trouble shooting guide and the test values are a good example of the golden nuggets of info I've found in the KV. The specifics are in the service manual too but not as easy to read. And the real world experiences and specific details on parts and practices makes the KV invaluable to us new guys on older bikes.
Being able to take a meter and work through the major components of the charging system, eliminating the good pieces using the test values, is a wonderful thing.
Had I done all the KV research first, I would not have replaced a two year old H-D absorbed glass matt battery (I thought it was 5 years old, found out later it was only two) when I had a bad voltage regulator. I probably replaced a good battery.
Jack |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 10:54 am: |
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Excellent Interex! Sounds like you are approaching a solution. Sorry to interrupt your bike fixing with holy wars about proper diagnostic sequences 
It's fun though!
How long did it take you to do the stator test? |
Interex2050
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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The stator test (well the first part, resistance) took under a minute. And the voltage test should take even less time, aside from moving the bike just right to reach the car batt to jump it.
Also the battery condition is irrelevant to testing either the stator or the VR as long as it has enough juice to run the engine with them disconnected. In fact having a fully charged and "healthy" battery attached to the VR while testing could just yield misleading results, also I will be testing the VR with the battery completely disconnected from it, if that will work.
As for the proper diagnostic sequences disputes they are somewhat amusing.
Once again I would like to thank everyone for the help and support. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 03:55 pm: |
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Interex2050, in the first post on this thread, said: "after running for a while the battery doesn't have enough juice to turn her over, and the last time I checked completely dead.
Can anyone give me some pointers?"
Then, today, Interex said:
"Also the battery condition is irrelevant to testing either the stator or the VR as long as it has enough juice to run the engine with them disconnected. In fact having a fully charged and "healthy" battery attached to the VR while testing could just yield misleading results, also I will be testing the VR with the battery completely disconnected from it, if that will work.
As for the proper diagnostic sequences disputes they are somewhat amusing.
Once again I would like to thank everyone for the help and support."
Well, Interex- sounds like you have all the answers already. My apologies for giving you some advice from my 30 years of wrenching, diagnosing bikes, and my BMW m/c tech II training and dealer services background.
I'm glad that you found my advice, wrought from training and experience, "somewhat amusing".
in the future, I'll remember to ignore your initial requests for "some pointers"
with that attitude, you'll really learn a lot |
Denfromphilly
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 03:57 pm: |
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My X1 will die immediately when the battery is disconnected while the engine is running. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 04:12 pm: |
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Grndskpr said:
"I am not going to totally agree with that, but i am just a shade tree mech, and not a very good one, so instead of telling someone there wrong i will ask instead:
Tramp, what does a battery have to do with testing the out put voltage of a stator before the VR???
How do the values change on this item??
Also how does it change the value after the VR witha battery disonected, or is that even a valid test??
Curious, because maybe my testing procedure is off"
Rog- the reason for this is the simple fact that battery condition is the first thing that should be checked in any diagnostic procedure on a battery system, due to higher likelihood of battery failure, and the time-savings of avoidance of extraneous testing of other components should the battery prove faulty.... I base this on the incidence ratio of battery failure over charging system failure in the scoots i've repaired... as well as logical flow that most manufacturers recommend |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 04:13 pm: |
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"My X1 will die immediately when the battery is disconnected while the engine is running."
Yes. I had a battery open inside and the engine just stopped like I turned it off. I don't know what a carbed bike would do though. Those glass-mat style batteries seem to die without giving any warning. My second battery (after 4 years) started the bike, got me to work and then left me there . It wouldn't even click! Just wierd. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 04:16 pm: |
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denfromphilly said: "My X1 will die immediately when the battery is disconnected while the engine is running." yahtzee, den! thank you.... but, clearly, your accurate account is merely "somewhat amusing"....(don't disconnect that thing too often while it's running... could fry your ign. mod.... but then...whaddoooo I know?) |
Natexlh1000
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 04:47 pm: |
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Just retrofit points and a generator. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 04:51 pm: |
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My M2 (carb'd) would barely run, sounding like it was on one cylinder or worse, with the battery disconnected.
quote:...due to higher likelihood of battery failure...
I would agree with you, and in fact a search of the archives would probably pop up a post of mine where I say nearly exactly the same thing. I base this on a lot of experience with a lot of different machines.
As I watch the electrical system posts here on this board though, trying to help for a few years now, I have seen what I believe to be a disproportionately high ratio of stator failures relative to battery failures. I don't know if that means Buell batteries are good, or Buell stators are crappy, or both, but it is what I have observed.
That, combined with the fact that testing a battery requires that it first be charged for 24 hours to be tested, and that even then you can't say for sure it is working without a load test, has lead me to encourage people to test the stator.
The test won't find every failure, it might sometimes test good when it is actually bad. That is unusual though. Generally, you pick up your meter, work for 15 to 25 minutes performing some very simple tests that require nothing more complicated then cutting some cable ties, and you come out of it knowing for a FACT that your stator is blown, or having a pretty good chance of knowing your stator is good.
I don't think my empircal experience with car and motorcycle batteries is 100% applicable to Buells running the factory supplied Absorbed Glass Matt battery. You are running aftermarket traditional construction batteries (I believe) so your case probably is consistent with your experience on other bikes and cars.
Nobody is saying don't test or don't suspect the battery. All we are saying is that while you have the battery hooked to the charger, and are waiting overnight for it to charge, spend 15 minutes checking the stator.
To test the stator, you disconnect it completely from the rest of the charging system, so the presence or absence of a good or bad charged or discharged battery is completely irrelevant to the outcome of the test.
DaveS, or other dealers, or other factory lurkers... can you do an easy inventory check to see how many buell stators you sell relative to buell batteries? It won't be an absolute answer, as I for one have a perfectly good Cyclone battery sitting in my garage that I replaced when my stator died, so I think the batteries would be over-represented in the data.
But it could clear up the question, if there are 7 stators sold for every 10 batteries, then you should just test whichever is easiest to test first. If there are 100 batteries sold for every stator, then don't bother testing the stator until the battery test is done.
That might also be invalid because a lot more bikes may use the same battery then use the same stator... I know the V-Rods use the XB battery, but doubt they use the XB stator.
Anyway, I say test all four if you can! (Stator, voltage regulator, battery, starter relay). I only put them in that order, because that is the most efficient order to test them in. And it makes the most intuitive sense, you are starting from where the power is generated, and tracing it step by step as it moves through your motorcycle.
Once you get to the battery test, you have to let it charge over night. You can do the other three tests pretty easily in under an hour when starting with a dead battery, and can in fact do them easily while the battery is charging for the battery test. A significantly discharged battery in fact simplifies the voltage regulator test, so you arguably want to do that *before* charging the battery to test it.
And for the record, when this happened to my cyclone, both my voltage regulator *and* stator were dead, but my battery was fine. I have no idea why both the stator and VR died at the same time. It makes no sense, but seems statistically incredibly improbable. I would still love somebody to explain that one... |
Interex2050
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 04:58 pm: |
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Tramp, I did not in any way intend to offend you or anyone else for that matter. Although now that I look back I can see how it may appear that way.
I apologize.
Everyone just has their own way of diagnosing problems. When something goes wrong I like to get to the root of the problem, troubleshoot each component separately and piece the puzzle together. Basically gather as much information as possible and go from there. Surely I will make mistakes along the line, but thats part of learning.
As for the progress...
My conclusion thus far is that the VR died out.
Here is my reasoning:
I jump started the bike, I left the jumper wires attached. Disconnected the stator with the engine running and it produced a healthy 63volts ac with a little throttle, although at idle its only 25v ac. Then I disconnected the VR from the wire that runs to the 30amp fuse to avoid measuring the battery voltage. And plugged the VR into the stator and here is where I think the problem lies, the VR is putting out a measly 1 volt DC. While when I measured the voltage of the wire going to the 30amp fuse its a good 13.9 volts due to the running car charging the bike battery along with its own. In fact while I was testing, the battery became charged enough to start the bike a few times.
So unless the VR is supposed to be putting out 1 volt DC, I think I've got the problem solved. |
Interex2050
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 05:15 pm: |
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Also... Another piece of evidence that I forgot to mention is that the bike is actually drawing current from the battery when its running. The moment I turn the bike off and turn the ignition to off the voltage on the battery terminals goes up a little bit.
Also I took out the VR and checked for simple fixes... like worn wires no ground etc those checked out fine. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 06:44 pm: |
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That sure does sound like a VR issue.
I think you should test the battery also Charge it over night, and see if the bike spins up happily in the morning. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 06:56 pm: |
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Rog- the reason for this is the simple fact that
Cool, thanks very much Tramp
Next question:
Whats the best way(please remember shade tree) to test a battery, is there another option other than a load tester????If so what
How can you tell if a battery is sulfited?????Is there a specific test?????????
Thansk in advance
R |
Interex2050
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 07:25 pm: |
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Indeed the battery will be the next step. Depending if I can get a hold of a battery charger, I will either run the bike for a while and see how the battery responds to the working VR or charge the batt over night and see how it behaves from day to day with the working VR.
Great Thanks for everything |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
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batt testing without the fancy black box is iffy and imperical -- that is, disconnect it, charge it fully (if it'll go that high), leave it over night, check the voltage
if the voltage has dropped appreciably (i.e., won't hold a charge), or it won't take the charge in the first place, 86 the poor dear and get another
sulfated batt is tougher to test for, but, at the end of the day, ya don't much care -- if it's taking and holding a charge, it's likely OK
or, you can toddle on down to Pep Boys or Autozone, who will almost always check your batt for free on their majik box |
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