| Author | Message | ||
     99x1 |
Thanks! This is how to make the Bicycle Voltmeter | ||
| Kahuna |
St. John, thats VERY impressive! Look forward to riding this season... | ||
| Joplin |
Hey all, I gotta run this buy you all. I have a 95 S2 that is running like crap, if you can even call it running. Story goes like this, I had it in the shop (never again) to press in a fifth gear bearing. Long, tortured story of idiot work, and I nhad done all the disassembly so all they were doing was the bearing and secondary drive sprocket, but when they delivered it back to me, the bike was on its side in the trailer. Like I said, idiots. Anyhow, every since then, it has a vicious backfire sometimes even when i crack the throttle. I've ckecked the VOES and the carb gaskets/seals, and exhaust studs. Is there any way I jacked up the timing when I removed the tranny? Thanks for any input , jm btw,cool voltmeter,,,, | ||
| 99x1 |
"...any way I jacked up the timing?" Wouldn't think so - the Cam Pulse Sensor has a seal between it and the crankcase, and since it is magnetic (the ferrous rotor passes between the magnet and the sensor), doubtful oil or anything would effect it. | ||
| Jocklandjohn |
Hello buellers - Aaron, Court (congratulations!!) Ferris (hope all well with you, and that your mom is good), Hans, Rocket and co. - been off the board for ages, as life stuff spun me about more than a bit. Still got the M2 and enjoying it though - well not at the moment as it's spluttered and died! I need some advice from the electrically competent.... New battery last year, not much use, took it out over winter, charged and put aside indoors in the warm. Took M2 out last week after charging the battery and it died by the roadside. A meter reading on the battery with the bike running is in the low 12's and dropping so no charging going on. I followed reepicheep and Hans's archive advice regarding the stator and voltage regulator,and tested them and got the following readings: On the plug below the oil pump going to/from the stator to voltage regulator: On the VR side Pin to pin resistance: 1.603 Pin to ground (head of engine): .067 Other pin to ground: 1.506 Resistance across plug on stator side (female side): 0.000 And at same place with bike running, AC voltage output 36V fluctuating from 35-37V. Can I deduce from this that the stator is fine as I am getting an infinity reading with the bike not running, and a healthy and in-spec 36V AC current when it is, thus indicating the VR is shot? Any advice welcome. I am NOT electrically savvy! | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't recall what the voltage output from the stator is supposed to be (as per the manual)... I can't check it, I sent my service manual to the guy that bought my cyclone. I was thinking 50 something, but maybe it was 35 V. If that 36V is right, then either a bad wire, connection, or bad VR would be my next guess. Pop off the derby cover... Does the primary fluid stink like crazy? Like "wanna puke" stink, not just the normal stink. The voltage regulator is a shunt device, so once you hook it up and the bike is running, you ought to see the stator output drop way down to close to battery charging voltage (13.8V or something). | ||
| Reepicheep |
And as I read back through my document, the pin to pin resistance on the stator side looks fishy. Whats the (stator side) pin to ground resistance? | ||
| Robr |
Hi guys, Stator pin to ground resistance, both sides should be infinite ohms(no continuity). Across the stator pins should read .2-.4 ohms. AC output should be 38-52 VAC @ 2000rpm. | ||
| Jocklandjohn |
Thanks Reepicheep and Robr - I'll see if I get time to test the stator side pin to ground later today or tomorrow and post back. (Message edited by jocklandjohn on April 21, 2005) | ||
| Jocklandjohn |
VR pins (male) to ground: 1. (no reading) VR pin to pin (male): 1.967 Female (stator) pin to pin: .000 Female (stator) pins to ground (both): 1. (no reading) Voltage output @ 2000rpm approx 50VAC at stator pins. So I am getting the correct AC voltage output, and the infinity reading across the stator pins, but the odd readings across the VR side. Does this look more like a kaput Voltage Regulator? Thanks folks. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That stator pin to pin reading is the fishy one, it should read some fraction of an ohm, not absolutely zero. That being said, if the stator is dead, then it ain't gonna be pumping out 50VAC at 2000 RPM. Pumping out 50VAC at 2000 RPM is all a stator is ever supposed to do... so the short answer is that it is good. If the digital multi meter is a cheap one, that false 0 reading would not be that much of a surprise, the resistance you should see from the stator pin to pin is not that much higher then what you would typically see from a cheap pair of test leads. Heck, even if you just shorted the leads with a good meter, you should NEVER see .000 ohms. Do you have the setting for the sensitivity range right on it? like a 0 to 10 ohm scale? If the battery takes a charge from a trickle charger and holds it, then the battery is good also, and that leaves either connections or voltage regulator. I'll see if I can dig up a schematic of the VR and see if those other readings make sense. (Message edited by reepicheep on April 23, 2005) | ||
| Jocklandjohn |
Ok I got another meter and set it so that it reads the lowest scale, which is up to 200 ohms (it goes up in the following increments: 200/2K/20K/200K/2M). It now reads 008 across the stator pins (female plug). So there is a reading there, the other meter obviously didnt pick it up. | ||
| Drfuyutsuki |
OK if you connect your meter between the voltage regulator and the main circuit breaker your volatge out put should be somewhere between 13.8 and 15 volts DC. Any more or any less and your regulator is probably gone. | ||
| 99x1 |
"I'll see if I can dig up a schematic of the VR..." (attached, I had one on my PC) The resistance on the input to the regulator is kinda meaningless (could be most anything, depending on the meter). The output of the stator goes to 4 diodes (full wave bridge rectifier) to convert the AC to DC. A diode lets current flow in the direction of the arrow from positive to negative. Therefore, with your meter on the diode test position (the symbol is an arrow with a bar on one end), with the red meter lead on one of the VR input pins, and the black meter lead on the VR positive output wire, you should see ~0.5 volts on the meter. (you are testing diode 1 in the attached diagram) Move the positive meter lead to the other input pin and you should also see ~0.5 volts. (testing diode 2). Likewise, move your meter red lead to the ground wire, and test the 2 inputs with the black meter lead - again looking for ~0.5 volts (testing diode 3 & 4). The SCRs (5 and 6 - diodes that can be turned on by the 3rd connection) are fired when the voltage goes too high, shorting out the stator ("shunt" regulator). The SCRs can fail to be shorted, sometimes only when it is hot. I think the most common fault with the HD alternator is the coils on the stator shorting, decreasing the output, and running hotter. The stator ideally should be tested while it is hot, and possibly by putting current through it (ie headlamp bulb in series to the battery) The diagram is not from a HD VR, IIRC the diagram is a Mercury Marine regulator.  | ||
| 007blast |
Hi guys, My 2000 x1 has started to act up lately. Surging and stalling until 3500 RPM then it runs fine.I have replace the O2 sensor and it helped somewhat. My question is will I have to have my tps reset. thanks in advance | ||
| X1natural |
hey guys - My 2001 X1 is having some problems. Every 50-75 miles it will start to run horrible. It begins to backfire, miss, and has no throttle response. These symptoms are all throughout the RPM range. It will barely idle either when I come to a complete stop. However, after running for another 3-5 miles, the problem clears up and the bike runs perfect..? I've changed the O2 and plugs. Didn't help. The bike has a race kit, but I've never had the TPS reset. Could that be the problem? Any suggestions? | ||
| 99x1 |
IMHO, a TPS reset probably wouldn't help with your problem. When the fault occurs does the tach read normally? It could be the CPS (cam position sensor) acting up when hot or the cabling loose to the CPS. The ECM has a separate ground connection (under rear of tank on frame) that can cause similar symptoms. Reseat the connectors on the ECM? Check the TPS cabling and make sure the wires to the fuel injectors aren't rubbing on the rocker boxes or the throttle cables. Does it seem like both cylinders are missing or only one? The X1 will miss on both cylinders if the voltage drops very low - a bad battery, or connection? Good Luck... | ||
| X1natural |
All the wiring and connections check out 'okay'. The bike is running fine right now, but I reset the connectors on the ECM anyways. When it does decide to run like crap, both cylinders are definitely missing. I'm at a loss on what's causing this, and I hate to just start changing parts that may not fix the problem. | ||
| Spiderman |
Any one here have a "Positive Short" On their bike and if so where? I am tryin o narrow down a short. Thanks. | ||
| Jackbequick |
2000 M2. I just replaced a bad voltage regulator. I connected my VOM across the charging lead by separating the single bullet connector located near the double pin connector from the stator (below the oil pump). When I started the motor, I got a voltage reading of 4 +/- volts. The reading ranged from 3.8 to 4.5 volts with the RPM. I expected to see the 13-15 volt charging voltage there. That is the wire that becomes the single red wire on the 30A circuit breaker. At that point my battery voltage (engine off) was 12.01 volts. I normalled up all the connections, started the motor, and when I checked across the battery, I had 14.1 volts. So that was the charging voltage and the VR is working right. I took a 50-60 mile test ride and the battery was 13.14V when I got home. I'm a happy camper, I now have a working charging system. I'm still baffled about the +4-5 reading at the other connector. Any ideas? Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
Was the meter on AC or DC? That would (with the VR disconnected and the meter on the stator side) be an AC signal. If you were measuring DC, then you would get all sorts of funky results. | ||
| Benm2 |
Reep, technical question. Is it possible to make a board that will run from battery if rectified alternator voltage is below 13V, and and will run from alternator only above? The key being that when alternator voltage is available, NO charging takes place on the battery. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Yes. It would need a decent sized capacitor to act as a "mini battery" to smooth out the rectified AC to keep the bike running well. You would just put a comparator / transistor / electronic switch on the voltage across that capacitor, and run it to a relay. When the voltage gets high enough, the relay opens up, and takes the battery out of the circuit. Depending on the schematic of the bike, there may be a relay there already you can just drive. That being said, it will still be a full loss charging system, so this will not gain you any power. Aaron Wilson did some pretty methodical dyno work with full loss versus non full loss charging systems, and saw zero difference. It makes sense, one horsepower is 640 watts (or something like that, been two decades since machines and power class), and the bike uses less then that. So even if you do things perfectly, you are talking a small fraction of a horsepower to keep the bike running. | ||
| Jackbequick |
Reepicheep - It was on DC, I remember checking that when I saw the reading. I had a negative reading at first, then I reversed the leads, checked the switch setting, and got the same reading but not negative. Is there some way I'd get the voltage difference between the battery (it was at 12.01 or slightly less then) and the charging voltage? I hate the mysteries of electrics, not a strong area for me. Is anyone collecting dead (actually just weak, around 11V) VR's for anything? The potting on that is soft, like RTV or something. I remember in the military they used to put them in an oven and back the hard (epxoy?) potting out. Got a good deal on the VR from Suburban Motors H-D, $79 plus shipping for a Buell Y0302.F (that's a newer parts number than was in my 2000 parts book). Jack | ||
| Benm2 |
Reep, I've got a more evil plan than that.  Remember, my M2 is track only. I've already made a complete alternator that weighs about 2 lbs, and combined with a machined primary sprocket my sprocket / rotor assembly weighs LESS than a stock primary sprocket alone.  I'm also running a YTX7 battery right now, which removed about 7-8 lbs by itself. The next part of my plan is to use a Lithium Ion cell to provide idling power (maybe 1.5 or 2 Amp-hour) but to switch to regulated power when the alternator would be applying charge. I don't think Li batteries like the constant "trickle" charge that lead-acids do, so the plan would be to just recharge the Li batteries when they got low enough to need it. I'm thinking that I can get at least one full trackday from the deal. The benefit? The Lithium ion cells are maybe 300 GRAMS. Less weight = more power. | ||
| Jackbequick |
..I don't think Li batteries like the constant "trickle" charge that lead-acids do... That might not be a problem. I'm not a battery expert but in some years of using Li-ion batteries in laptops, PDAs, etc., I have habitually used them on the AC adapter with a fully charged battery in place. I use them on battery only when away from an AC source. I do that because the service life is stated as a number of charging and depletion cycles and I feel like I am saving the cycles until I need them. You alternator should keep the Li-ion charged all or nearly all the time I would think. One thing that will kill Li-Ion cells is to let them get fully depleted and leave them that way. Especially in a laptop or something that has a tiny draw (a CMOS capicator battery, clock, etc.) even when apparently off. Batteries left that way for a few weeks or longer will sometimes never "wake up" and take a charge again. I remove batteries from laptops when I'm not going to be using them for a while. Jack | ||
| Reepicheep |
NiMh would be cheaper, more accessible, and probably more durable then the LiIon. They make them in normal form factor cells, which would make using and replacing them a lot easier. I don't know how much current the starter actually draws, but I have seen 7+ amps from a single AAA (the little ones) NiMh cell. Some C cells (or D cells if you could find them) would go a long way. That being said, a tiny special purpose vehicle battery (like it sounds like you have) would be hard to beat. As far as the "stop charging me" aspect of things, a single big honking diode pointing out from the positive terminal of your battery lead would make sure the battery never gets charged, though that will put a higher load on your voltage regulator. In my experience, LiIon batterys are fragile and fussy, though they could be made to work. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Jack, Someone a long while back was able to successfully rebuild a VR. If memory serves, it was just the output transistor that went south. About a $5 part. Bill, so you remember this posting? It's from 2 or 3 years ago. | ||
| Benm2 |
Reep, thanks for the info. I'll look in Mouser for a "big honking diode" I thought that Li batteries really didn't like overcharge. On laptops & other integrated applications, I thought that there was a regulator built into the electronics that would not allow more charge to be put to the battery once it was at full capacity. I think that's part of the "fragility" of the Li batteries. If you overcharge them, you can damage them (they might even get dangerous then, if I remember right). I didn't think there were other concerns though, like mechanical strength. Aren't they currently used for some power tools? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Yup, I think it was an SCR. I don't think there is an output transistor in there, it is a shunt regulator. Since then, I tried to rebuild mine when it went. Getting whatever they are using for potting compound in there is nasty stuff. Fixing the part would be easy, getting the potting out is a ROYAL pita, to the degree that I would not recommend it. So if anyone figures an easy way to get the compound out, we can fix them pretty easy. Otherwise, spend the $75 on a new one and be done with it. | ||
| Chainsaw |
PROBLEM: Throttle Position Sensor • Code 11 Been getting an intermittent bike dies under power, engine light flashing thing going on. TPS has been reset. Jumpering the data link has the engine light blinking Code 11, TPS. SOLUTION: Removed filter and airbox. Found the bare spot on one of the 3 wires coming directly from the sensor (BLACK/WHITE STRIPE). It has been rubbing against inside of the frame on the exhaust side. Sitting on the bike, parallel with the velocity stack about 4 inches down, black mark against frame where the wires have been rubbing. Fixed with electrical tape and a wire tie. Posted here to help the next unfortunate soul. | ||
| Jdbuellx1 |
Problem, last year bike dies going down the road, no ign power, figured was battery (2 yrs old), change battery this year, ran great till last week, same problem, bike dies, did more looking this time since batt. is new, voltage good, ign. hit and miss, starter engages then everything dies, everything in charging circuit checks OK, batt. voltage 13.5. Put in a friend's new batt checked at 12.5 volts, cranked right over and started, why didn't my batt with more voltage start it? I don't know why my bike keeps killing batteries, unless I just got a bad one, but I can't figure out why it wont start with my batt at over 13 volts? Justin | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Justin, The battery can have full voltage but low current capability. Check your ground cable on both ends. Also make sure your cables are tight and clean on the starter. Just by removing and replacing the battery you may have made good contact again. Did you try your original battery again? Brad | ||
| 99x1 |
Did you check your charging system at high RPM after battery is charged? Sealed batteries lose capacity gradually if they are over charged - cranking capacity decreases but the battery voltage remains high. Mine was charging over 15 volts, and would kill a battery in about 2 months. | ||
| Jdbuellx1 |
Visual inspection of cables OK, ground wire to frame tight, clean and good continuity, starter wires good, had them off to bypass starter to rule it out. Charging at 13.80 something volts at higher rpm with other batt. I am going to retry my old batt right now, had already planned on so but ran out of time last night. If it still doesn't work I'll take it to get load tested and replaced, it is less than 6 mos. old and only has roughly 1200 miles on it if that many. I'm going to get another YUASA batt this time, my first lasted 4 yrs, harley batt lasted 1 yr, el cheapo junk in less than 6 mos. Off to work on it, will let you know what happens next. Thanks, Justin | ||
| Reepicheep |
That Harley battery is actually a very advanced Absorbed Glass Matt unit, and priced fairly for what it is. I am not saying it did not fail, nor that the YUASA is not a good battery, just making an observation. | ||
| Jdbuellx1 |
Interesting results. Put old batt back in, no go, off to battery warehouse, voltmeter reading: 13.07 volts, tester reading, BAD BATTERY 0% charge, 9.68 volts on the first try, second try: 10.5 volts, third try: DEAD CELL, faulty battery, recheck with volt meter: 13.05 volts, weird. The guy at the shop just scratched his head. Get replacement battery, place in bike, runs like new. I wasn't implying that the harley battery was junk, just this last battery, the harley battery lasted a year at least, which is about average from what I've heard from people around here. Thanks everyone for the advice, now its off to beating the guts out of this thing as usual. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The OEM battery in my 99S3 was new at the end of October, 99. It still cranks my S3 over every morning, even after two weeks of sitting. It's not too long until it goes, I think, but at this point, I'm just curious how long it'll take before it goes completely. Almost 6 years on one battery? I've never gotten half that before. Al | ||
| Rick_a |
What a PITA. I installed a Crane HI-4E this weekend. The coil I ordered didn't fit in the stock location. Me and Frausty12R tried "custom" making adapter brackets. After screwing around with that for hours a couple of 50 cent P-clamps ended up doing the trick. The next thing wrong was that the weather pack connectors were assembled improperly. The internal pins were the same on the opposite sides. I had to cut 'em off and use my own. After getting everything together it would stumble but not start. After some investigation it turned out the front and rear cylinder connections were reversed! I had two wiring diagrams...one for the coil and one from Crane, they both showed it going the way I had it, and yet the front was rear and rear was front. What are the chances? To top it all off I dynamic timed it per their instructions and even on the lowest setting I get some pinging when hot and runs a bit erratic at low rpm as well. High zoot parts are always so much fun. | ||
| X1natural |
Problem: 2001 X1. Bike starts up and runs great until the motor heats up. After that, it doesn't nescessarily run bad, but there is definitely a lack of power and lots of popping from the exhaust. If I shut the bike off when it is warm and then start it back up 5-10minutes later, it has a horrible misfire. It will continue to run like crap for 1-2 miles and then smooth back out. Engine temp sensor possibly? Any advice on how to check it? TPS has been reset recently, plugs have been changed recently, and 02 has been changed recently. There is no exhaust leaks, there doesn't appear to be any exposed wire arching anywhere, and no check engine light. | ||
| Jnorton |
Hi All, Had an interesting problem on my wife's 1999 X-1 yesterday. About 100 miles from home the engine started shutting down for no apparent reason. Motor would just quit running. Stopped, shut ignition off and wait 30 seconds and the bike would start right up again. No engine error codes displayed. We nursed it home (made for a long right hehe). She discovered that if she just pulled in the clutch and shut the ignition off for 30 seconds or so (while coasting) she could restart the engine and continue. Checked for error codes again when we got home and found none. Bike would quit most of the time at exactly 1 kilometer intervals. I could tell when it was going to die by watching my odometer. I'm at a total loss for what could make the engine quit with that kind of regularity. Any input/insights gratefully accepted. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Rick,does your ignition have a VOES hook up?Check that is hooked up correctly.My Dyna ignitions all did and ran great.I never did the retime thing,just left it at stock until it got dynoed.I would set timing back where it was before. BTW I just went through that wiring crappola as I put a new coil on the race bike and misplaced my instructions,got the front and rear plugs crossed.Runs much nicer the right way. | ||
| Dave |
Sidestand switch? Clutch is part of the circuit isn't it? DAve | ||
| Rick_a |
Yeah, it has the VOES. I checked to make sure it was working properly. The instructions stated to time it for 35 degrees total advance on the middle setting...that didn't make much sense to me as it would limit how far you can dial it back with the rotary switch, and didn't match their diagram for the available ignition curves. I called them and got a lot of crap. So, I dynamic timed it for 35 degrees on the highest setting then set it back to the lowest and she runs great again. It should be at 26 degrees on the power curve now and I'll leave it there 'till the dyno says otherwise. |
