| Author | Message | ||
     Jon |
Danny, are you serious? Why do you feel you and your kind are not welcomed here? | ||
| M1combat |
"8-02-05 1:10am Realizing my kind is neither wanted nor welcome here, I decide to go back to my corner of the web." I suppose I have no idea what your kind is exactly, but I don't really see why you would be un-wanted OR un-welcome here. The discussion gets a bit heated at times, but it tends to die down before anyone REALLY gets their undies in a pinch (with the exception of the political thread maybe). Them's the breaks though I spose... (Message edited by m1combat on August 02, 2005) | ||
| Eeeeek |
I have made no comments about the article. I have not read the article and until today, I did not know the article even existed. I would love to read the article and I will pay special attention to what they define as "cornering." The Buell racers I've talked to (some of whom were mentioned earlier in this thread) had great things to say about the Buell's handling. As Chop pointed out earlier, though, Barney's record last year brings up some interesting points. Barney raced FX on an XB and Supersport on an R6 last year. The supersport rules are much more restictive, yet, Barney was faster on his R6 every time. Does that mean the XB wasn't better at "cornering?" No. It simply means that when you add up all the components, the XB lost out. It sounds to me like Buell won a victory with Bike Magazine. At the same time, it doesn't sound like they won the war. I'll reserve my final opinion on this article until I've read it. Likewise, I'll reserver my final opinion on the XB's until I've had the opportunity to ride one as hard as I just rode the 999R. Vik | ||
| Blake |
What Jon said. Geez!!! Does this thread even compare to the animosity in any number of dust-ups on other boards? You've never been anything but a positive contributor here. Would sure suck to see you banish yourself from the place. | ||
| Blake |
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| Jim_sb |
Good evening Choptop, The above was your 1st post on this thread. Ostensibly your post infers that something nefarious has happened causing an about face by Bike Magazine. Marketing dollars perhaps? You do not back up this allegation with any proof, but in typical modern day political fashion you toss out an allegation that some might regard as a direct slap in the face. Especially those working for BMC. You receive a quick (and as far as I know accurate) response as follows:
You then went on to support your initial comment by giving your personal opinion of the XB's, your credentials, etc. Of course your experience and personal opinion lead you to believe the XB is not as good as Bike Magazine would have us believe. In that manner you apparently feel you have validated your initial post on the matter. Nevertheless, you made an allegation (whether intended or not) that was quite disparaging and now you seem rather incredulous at the various negative responses you have received. I suggest that if you make an allegation of impropriety on the part of a publication that the burden of proof is on you, Sir. In fact, I strongly recommend you restate, in a letter to the Editor of Bike Magazine, your initial post on this thread. Then please share the response. Enquiring minds want to know. While I don't doubt that you believe you are 100% correct in your personal opinion on the XB's capability, that doesn't address the heart of the argument you initially made, which is why did Bike Magazine change their opinion... I do not pretend or claim to have your skills as a rider, but I can read and I can think. I have seen these types of tactics used in debates before. I wasn't fooled then either. I sincerely hope you re-think your initial post on this matter and consider that, if you had devoted a significant part of your career towards development of the XB bikes, that to have someone come out and allege some impropriety on what is otherwise a celebratory occasion, that you too might be genuinely offended. Sometimes we reap what we sow, eh? For my part I would like to extend my congratulations to Erik Buell and BMC. I have enjoyed owning and riding my S2 for many years now and I very much appreciate the Buell difference. I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger! Regards, Jim in Santa Barbara | ||
| M1combat |
" I'll reserver my final opinion on the XB's until I've had the opportunity to ride one as hard as I just rode the 999R. " I'm sure that's one heck of a bike. Please keep in mind though that I have always specifically said 999 and NOT 999R. | ||
| Eeeeek |
So now I have to find someone to loan me a standard 999 as well as an XB? Yippee! I've got a line on an XB for the track. Should I go 12 or 9? Vik (Message edited by eeeeek on August 02, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
Alan (Chop), It seems to me that your question is loaded and is based upon a disingenuous premise, that the press on Buell XB models prior to this has been negative. Do you read the same Cycle World I do? The one where for two years running they awarded a Buell honorable mention in their ten best bikes contest? The one where Don Canet affirmed Erik Buell's claim that the XB9R was designed to be the world's best handling back roads bike ever? The one where the XB9R tied for first in the ten best street bikes street course competition, besting the FZ1 by more than two seconds? Do you read the same Road Racing World and Motorcycle Technology that I do? The one that gave high praise and excellent reviews to both the XB9 and XB12 Buells? Did you not read about the RRW reporter who won the FUSA National Championship racing a Buell XB9R? They ran at least a three part series on that achievement. Did you miss the Performance Bikes issue that also awarded the Buell XB12R the title of best cornering bike? They actually measured cornering performance for a bunch of accomplished sport bikes and some lightweight supermotard types too. The Buell XB12R won hands down by over a second in aggregate time for three separate corners/configurations in speed tests that measured the time from corner entry through corner exit. The XB12R beat the ZX10R, the GSXR600, the 749R, and others. Did you read the reviews in Motorcycle Online, the one where no matter who was riding which bike the Buell XB9R walked away from their R1 in the twisty curvies? Did you read what John Burns wrote about the Buell XBs? It was very favorable. Did you read their comparo of the XB9 versus the SV650 and the air-cooled Ducati? The Buell won. Pretty favorable. You must only read Motorcyclist Magazine. That rag that when queeried about there dismal review of the XB9R responded to me that they measured the performance of the XB9R against that of other literbike repliracers since displacement was the same. This from the same magazine that saw fit to laude the "nearly 70 HP" performance of an SV650. But apparently Mitch Boehm, editor of Motorcyclist, recently took a track ride on a Buell and liked it, alot. So which "press" are you talking about that has been negative about the Buell XBs? I don't see much of a change. They still talk about the different way the XBs handle. I guess if there is any validity in what you are proposing, it might be that folks are getting to actually know and learn how to ride the Buell and are realizing how damn good they actually are. Frankly, I think it is difficult for some to rationalize the relaxing cadence of the big American V-Twin while ripping through the countryside or around the track. If it doesn't scream and whine like a banshee and drag hard parts, it cannot be going fast around a turn can it? The Performance Bikes testing and the BIKE Magazine evaluation say otherwise. How about some congratulations for Buell? How about admitting that the Buell ZTL brake/wheel is truly innovative and offers significant advancement and benefits in the world of motorcycling? How about showing some enthusiasm for the laudable accomplishments by Buell Motorcycle Company? You know instead of interjecting disention and questioning them at what seems like most every opportunity (ZTL thread and here)? Vic, "What I have found is that in a racing applicaiton, a Buell needs tens and thousands of dollars of modificaltions and a championship winning rider to compete with less expensive SV650's, RVF400's and the like." That is a load of crap, not only from what I've seen but also based upon a few simple facts. Or please do explain THIS occuring less than two months after the commercial release of the XB9R. That is unprecedented. We're not talking SV650s here, we are talking 600cc Supersport racing machines in a national series, and the Buell XB9R was able to beat them all including Michael Barnes. Please explain also the RRW/XB9R victory in the FUSA National Challenge. They used a stock XB9R with a race kit. Did Trojan-Horse invest tens of thousands of dollars in their championship winning racing machine? Did Vallejo invest tens of thousands in their Buell racebike? "It can, in no way, compete with a Mille or a 999. The results are out there in plain text for everyone to see." Uh, you mean like the two 999's I beat racing in the CMRA or do you mean the 999's and RSV's that the Adrenaline Moto team beat on their way to winning the British Supertwins championship a few year's back? No the Buell XBs are not Superbike class machines. Why compare them then??? Does the XB outhandle the 999 and RSV in the corners. Yep. At least according to BIKE and Performance Bikes it does. See also that Cycle World street course competition from a few years back. And of course you are not trying to equate the performance of a Ducati 999 to those that are racing in AMA SBK and WSBK are you? Hope not. Might as well hold up the Buell FX machines campaigned by Hal's and Kosko. In fact those Buell FX machines had far more in common with their street bike cousins than do the superbikes. The last year they raced in AMA Pro-Thunder Mike Cicotto nearly won the championship against WSBk racer Kirk McCarthy (may God bless his soul) campaigning a highly modified 748R racer. There is no SV650 that is going to ever approach that level of performance, ever. Mike Cicotto's Hal's highly modified Buell XB9R may have had the investment you imagine is required to win in club racing. I know that last year's FX bikes didn't. They ran the stock brakes on most tracks and Barney's Kosko's XB even ran the OEM forks. Sorry buddy, you are way off on this one. Of course you race an SV650, so you are understandably biased. (Message edited by blake on August 02, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
Excellent analysis by Jim_SB. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Blake, Yes, Vallejo has invested that much. You versus the Mille you beat? How many bikes beat you and what kind were they? See the flaw in that argument? Hell, I beat a 1000RR that was in the wave in front of me (Open GP), so are you saying that an SV is better than an 1000RR? Not even I would make that claim.  Just because I race an SV doesn't mean I'm not grounded in reality. I go by the facts and you should stop cherry picking your facts. You bring up a Buell win in FUSA. How about looking at the other results. I'm seeing a lot of bikes that aren't Buells with more wins. No crap slinging here, just statements supported by facts. Vik | ||
| Rocketman |
OK WHAT THE •••• IS GOING ON HERE? Blake where did you get the Bike info from? The September edition doesn't hit the shelves until tomorrow 3rd August. Bike do not have a website. Bike is published by Emap in Peterborough, the same people that publish MCN every week. Bike's sister magazines include What Bike, Classic Bike, Ride and Performance Bikes. In the case of PB no one has commented on the stuff I posted several hours ago yet that info is published in the September edition which is on sale now for all who want to see \ buy \ read \ wipe their arse on it. No one yet knows the contents of Bike magazine September copy because no one has yet seen it. Please do this thread at least some justice by telling us all where you got the images from? After all the written words upon the images posted seem to be in contrast with Bike's sister publication PB where the XB12R is concerned. Rocket | ||
| Eeeeek |
Wait a second. Are you telling me noone here has read this article? The same people who are busting Chop's chops haven't read it, either? Anyone? Vik (Message edited by eeeeek on August 02, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
Okay Vik, you got one out of what, four? What about the other three? Do all the Buells running in FUSA Thunderbike invest tens of thousands in their racing machines? And the few competitive SV's are what, stock? Sorry buddy, there's no reality in your claims from where I am sitting. I'd sure be interested to see where/how Vallejo has spent tens of thousands on their race bike. I have a very hard time believing that. Regardless, it won the race no? Against better riders maybe too? | ||
| Blake |
Xlcr, et al, None of that personal attack crap is appropriate for posting on this board. For the record I asked Xlcr to remove the offensive content he posted earlier. That should be the end of it. Please. | ||
| Blake |
Rocket, An anonymous party sent it to me. Frankly I'm not real interested in debating that stuff you posted. I have no idea what it really means. This topic was intended to celebrate recognition of the prowess of Buell motorcycles to carve a corner and of the recognition of that by BIKE Magazine as clearly stated on their September cover. What do you need to read Vik... Here it is, just like the folks at Performance Bikes discovered...
| ||
| Blake |
Vik, Someone who sees fit to poo-poo the genuine and significant achievements of another by calling them "engineering for engineering's sake" and someone who sees fit to crap all over really positive accolades/recognition of another is in no way an enthusiast of that other. Nope, that person would be a naysayer in my book. As to the Sv versus Buell comparo... Let us all know when an SV650 wins a FUSA National Sportbike race or even makes the grid of an AMA Formula Xtreme race. Privateers on Buells are making the grid for AMA FX races, the very same grid that HRC factory riders Miguel Duhamel and Jake Zemke are populating. Pretty sure they have not spent tens of thousands improving their Buell racing machines either. Maybe after the disappointment that has become this year for Buell racing fans, next year will prove to be more inspiring for Buell racers in AMA FX. If Buell racers ever win in AMA FX, what will be the naysayer commentary, that the Buells have an unfair advantage with all their displacement? Probably so. It is so predictable. | ||
| Peter |
 Pete2 Dakar | ||
| Court |
>>>>So which "press" are you talking about that has been negative about the Buell XBs? That's and inaccurate statement. The motorcycle industry press is, sometimes in a bigtime 180o not only accepting, but in some cases with a "hey...ya know what?...the ARE right". In addition, I. . . just me personally. . . want to thank everyone for proving once again that (be sure to quote this) "no motorcycle built today evokes so much passion among riders as the Buells from East Troy". Websites are dedicated to former owners, disenfranchised owners and the moment Buell unveiled the Ulysses folks from several other boards were waiting right here at Badweb to discuss the bike. Those who have summarily dismissed the XB12X, having neither read, ridden, nor seen on, pretty well are shooting arrows without heads. No one really cares much. To the rest of you. . . a big THANK YOU. Frankly, I've been having an ongoing e-mail correspondence and there are several folks who recall they day we hoped Buell would sell 10 bikes in a year and there were but 3 of us waiting to see what Erik would come up with that year Imagine how the flip up seat, the first one, rocked our world! For 20 years Christmas and waiting for the new Buells have been two of my big annual events. . . . ranking right up there with the many "1st Annual" Buell Owners meetings I've attended. Some may debate the handling, and various merits, of the Buells. Few debate the impact they are having or the excitement they've brought to riders and the moto-press. We never dreamed Buells would be headed for a Harleyesque "I can get you one, but I'll need a deposit and it'll be 3 months" phenomenon. Let the pundacious pundit away. Like the Who's Down in Whoville, no manner, matter or tone of negativity can rise over the cheers of celebration. I, personally speaking, need no Eor-style naysaying webmudgeon to "warn" me about buying a motorcycle that evokes so much emotion. I'm not a great rider, but am a full-blown human being. How this thing corners, to me, is pretty much secondary. What it can bring to my life is EVERYTHING. Yeah....I'm excited. Congratulations to Erik Buell and The Elves. Court >>>>Now that I can "own ALL the corners" I'll be up here on the high road, riding toward the light. I need to insult nobody or nothing to make me enjoy this motorcycle. | ||
| Oldguy |
Racing doesn't cost a buck ninety-nine or we'd all be out on the track. Anyone who is half serious will "invest tens of thousands in their racing machines" because the bikes cost that much before any modifications are made to get it race ready. Then factor in several people spending many hours (days, weeks) bolting together expensive parts (many are probably 'one of a kind'), not to mention hours on the dyno and the resulting tear downs and rebuilds and even I can see lots of dollars. Could everyone step back and take a deep breath? Glenn | ||
| Blake |
Glenn, Vik and I and Chop are club racers. Doubt any of us take it "seriously." I sure don't. It is recreation for us, not a profession. It is purely for fun. Grand total I've spent around $12,000 for my track capable '97 Buell Cyclone. Bought it used for $6,100 already outfitted with rearsets and clip-ons. I bought the bellypan and the race exhaust and had Brian Nallin and his crew do their stuff. And I've got a Works Performance rear shock and the RaceTech Gold Valves for the forks. Still run the belt; it works fine where I race. No fairing. | ||
| Choptop |
Let us all know when an SV650 wins a FUSA National Sportbike race +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ you obviously havent looked at the results lately. | ||
| Choptop |
In the case of PB no one has commented on the stuff I posted several hours ago yet that info is published in the September edition which is on sale now for all who want to see \ buy \ read \ wipe their arse on it. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Rocket, for even questioning whether or no a Buell could not come out on top of the test, for even believing that something like could POSSIBLY be true... you are obviously not a Buell fan, you must rain on Buell's parade in light of thier recent accomplishments, you are likley on the payroll of Suzuki, you dont know how to ride well enough to know the difference for yourself, you dont understand all of the advatages that the Buell engineering offers... how am I doing so far? | ||
| Choptop |
so far, to my reverse question... we have one person who thinks the XB is the best cornering bike ever. Slaughter says its the best in his garage (it beats 2-3 bikes) Someone else said its better than the tuberframers he's ridden. anyone else? Come on what are all you people Buell Haters? why must you rain on Buell's parade by not immediately saying that you agree 100% and that the XB is the best cornering bike EVER. </sarcasm> blake, blake, blake.... Please call Vallejo Buell and ask Terry Parsley how much they have invested in thier XB to make it competitive. P.S. that Buell's main competition is a RVF400  You say BS to having tens of thousands into a Buell, but then say you have $6k into your Buell to make it into a trackday bike. huh... P.S. gotcha covered on the displacement/cheater issue. Vik and I are active compaigners in AFM in support of Buells running in Formula4, in the face of many who bring up the displacement issue and say its unfair (our public comments can be seen on Bayarearidersforum.com). But then again, I guess going to board meetings and lobbying in favor of Buell and making public statements to that effect isnt enough to make us enthusiasts. Both of us seriously wanted to race Buells, but the cost of making them competitive was the stopper. I bought my last race bike for the price of a Buell chain conversion and fairing (~$4k), nevermind the bike itself, all of the ther rest of the equipment needed and other mods (big $ to get the engine up to snuff). (Message edited by Choptop on August 02, 2005) | ||
| Dbird29 |
Choptop, That is Buell Haters© <------copyrighted! DBird (you go to bed and all hell breaks loose) | ||
| Snail |
I came back to Badweb to help liven things up a bit, after one of the members was ragging on Blake and Ferris on Sacborg. Blake and Jerry are long time close personal friends. Blake and Court both think my S-3 handles better than my Busa, but hey, they're just ignorant. My S-3 handles badly, and if either Blake or Court were to ride both my bikes I'm sure they'd agree with my statement. Riding my S-3 is a survival experience at best. As for dancing in the streets over the as yet unread article in a magazine? How can you be so sure you agree with something you haven't read? Blinded by the light... | ||
| Doughnut |
 IT IS JUST AN ARTICLE ABOUT A MOTORCYCLE! | ||
| Eeeeek |
Attached is my petition to the AFM Board to keep Buell's in FIV. The board came very close to not allowing Buells into the class: "Dear AFM Board, I've had quite a bit of time to research the changes to FIV and I would just like to say that I think the board made a good decision by allowing 1210 air-cooled pushrod engines into the class. From my research, the Buells, limited to near stock displacement, are a pretty good fit. I've been thinking about Buells in FIV for the last month. During that time, I did a bit of research and spent some time talking to the person most likely to race a Buell in FIV, Shawn Reilly. First, to debunk the Formual Extreme angle, comparing the Buells available to the real world to the Buells that run in Formula Extreme is like comparing a Monte Carlo you can buy on the showroom to a NASCAR. I talked with Henry Duga, who runs Buells Race program and while he kept many of the bike's specifications closely gaurded, he did let me know that the egnines they are running are monsters. 1210 will produce nowhere near the hp of the FX bikes, which run a significantly larger displacement, along with many unobtanium parts. Additionally, they are rebuilt often enough to make it impracticle for anyone without full factory support to campaign. Then I got to thinking about time I've spent on the track with Buells. I distrincly remember riding practice sessions with Mike Miller and pulling him coming out of turn 6 at Sears. There is no way in hell I am a better rider than Mike. I asked him about it later and he said that he was giving his Buell all he could, I just pulled him. My SV is not a monster. Hell, I'm still running stock carbs. So, I looked some more at Shawn Reilly's times with his S1 and compared them to 650 Twins on the same day and found that with the monster motor he was running in his old bike, which was well over 1210, he would not have run away with the class, in fact, he rarely would have won. He would have usually gotten top three finishes (again with a much larger than 1210 engine); but; wouldn't he likely get top three finishes if he was on an SV, too? Then I looked at Dyno charts for stock XB12's. 90 rwhp looks scary at first; but, the 6800 rpm redline really limits what it can do with it. Oh, yeah, 5 speed tranny, too. As I experienced when running on the track with Mike, the Buell has a hell of an initial grunt and then just sort of dies... Some others talked about how the Buell gives so much more torques that it takes a much different riding style than the other bikes. Well, as I experienced in FIV, we already have many different bike styles in the class. Try following a 2-stroke 250's line around while on an SV and you'll be doing some soil sampling. So, I don't think it's a mistake to allow Buell's up to 1210 to run in the class. At the same time, I'm not a top ten runner, so it really doesn't affect me. I, personally, am glad to see the class opened up to a bike that really doesn't have another class to race competitevely in. I have to wonder how a Buell limited to 1210 will survive in Open Twins... I welcome the addition of the air cooled bikes and think it will make the top ten even more diverse than it already is. Additionally, I support the BORD's decision to limit I-4s to 450 cc's." As for SV's winning in FUSA, I went to the FUSA site and the very first race I looked at, Daytona, showed an SV650 as the winner. So, for the record, one more time: XB's handle great. I agree. There are other bikes that, in my opinion, and this is supported by numerous race results, provide a better track and race experience. Vik | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Good on you, Vik | ||
| M1combat |
Certainly... Thanks for that . |
