| Author | Message | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
     Jima4media |
Danny, Blake is right. No one actually uses tires on the street, so why would you want to measure the weight of them? FX qualifying just in - Zemke - Honda CBR600RR 128.729 Barnes - Suzuki GSX-R600 128.848 Duhamel - Honda CBR600RR 128.872 Roberts - Honda CBR600RR 129.945 Howard - Yamaha YZF- R6 130.259 Attard - Kawasaki ZX-6RR 131.066 11. Andrews - Ducati 749 132.939 34. Jeff Johnson Buell XB 140.011 - last Make of that whatever you will. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Davegess |
Jim, the race track only tells you who is faster on the race track. I have been on only one race track that came remotey close to street conditions and that was th eIsle of man. Even that was very smooth and consistent in surface compared to a regular road and it is considered very bumpy by race track standards. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Blake is right. No one actually uses tires on the street, so why would you want to measure the weight of them? Might was well include the exhaust system too then. Wrong topic for posting race info. But I'll play along... April 2003 CMRA at OHR Unlimited Grand Prix Amateur Race Results
Make of that whatever you will.  Friggin trolls. (Message edited by blake on July 22, 2005) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
On second thought, fine, include a new OEM specified tire in the weight to make Jim happy. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Jim, I didn't raise the belt issue. See Cecil's quoted text. I rebutted it. Glad that you recognize the real and significant benefits offered by the Buell ZTL system. But once again you dive straight for the race track seeking to belittle Buell. This discussion topic is and has been about the merits of the innovative Buell ZTL brake/wheel over conventional systems. It's merits are many and significant. That you and others seek to deride those merits and the engineering and innovation behind them by offering that a repli-racer is faster than a Buell XB is a non-sequiter. In straight talk... it is bullshit. The premise of your logic is that if it isn't winning races in AMA Supersport or Superstock then it has no value on a motorcycle. I don't think you really buy that logic. Some do. I certainly don't. But if you don't really buy that logic, then you are being disingenuous and are trolling, and that is uncool. Please understand that this is a Buell Enthusiast's board. It is for folks who enjoy their Buell motorcycles and wholike to discuss them, learn about them, diagnose problems with them, learn about performance enhancements for them, etc... Those who want to post disingenuous belittling comments and such to show Buell motorcycles or those who race them in a bad light really are not welcome here. No one here has any kind of fantasy that a stock Buell XB is faster than a Japanese repli-racer. I sure don't. No one here is much concerned about your beloved price/performance yardstick. Very few if any here view their purchase of a motorcycle in such narrowly-focused terms. Good grief, even for a racing machine, I don't use such narrow-minded thinking. Of course, I'm just out to have fun. My dream days of achieving athletic renown racing a motorcycle are long past. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jon |
Blake, Thanks for posting that. Especially, this: "Please understand that this is a Buell Enthusiast's board. It is for folks who enjoy their Buell motorcycles and wholike to discuss them, learn about them, diagnose problems with them, learn about performance enhancements for them, etc... Those who want to post disingenuous belittling comments and such to show Buell motorcycles or those who race them in a bad light really are not welcome here." It's not MY place to say that, but I have been thinking that for several days. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bobup |
I'm gonna throw something out here......(no I have not read every single entry of this thread...but I did read alot of them) Have you ever noticed the "Monster Trucks" brakes? They aren't even on the axle...they're mounted on the driveshaft. Do you know why? It isn't possible to mount a rotor "large enough" on the axle to stop the "Monsters" fast enough. I forget the numbers, but the amount of braking on the drive line is WAY more than on the axle. (think diff gear ratio) just food for thought  Bob | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Pammy |
I wasn't going to get into this AT ALL, because I am surely one of the most UNqualified individuals on this particular subject, period. But... "Blake is right. No one actually uses tires on the street, so why would you want to measure the weight of them?" If you are trying to find the weight of a wheel assembly, you should weigh only that. I think that would be elementary deduction. The tire and weights to balance the tire would be a HUGE variable. Jim, you didn't seem that disagreeable when we met. Other variables (in stopping distance)to take into account are brake line, Brake pad material, Tire size/compound, air pressure,Weight/Size in general and of course the rider/stopper. And those are just a few. So if you are measuring wheel(only) weight, I think any of us can handle that with a certain degree of accuracy. Beyond that you are all speculating(so stop it!) Jim, I am truly hurt at your vicious maligning of Vespa....totally uncalled for, and I thought you were a gentleman.Shame, shame...  (Message edited by pammy on July 22, 2005) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jima4media |
Hahaha Pammy, I love Vespas. It was the first thing on two wheels that I owned. Check that. I had a Fox mini-bike with a 10HP McCulloch chainsaw motor before the Vespa. Polished and ported the head myself. Who needs brakes? Just drag a metal plate on the tire. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Its a good thing to own a thing with two wheels and an engine. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Josh_ |
>Blake is right. No one actually uses tires on the street, so why would you want to measure the weight of them? Exactly, how stupid. I mean I already posted that 2 new Metzeler tires (Z4/Z6) have a 1.2lbs weight difference so tire weight differences should not affect the results at all when we want to compare front end assemblies. Also, for best results, try to use a different scale for each front-end you measure. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
 And measure some of them while submerged in gin, you or the wheel, either way would be interesting. LOL! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Choptop |
Like i said... the ZTL wheel is lgither than the RC51 wheel. Erik showed that in his presentation. Blake, you've gone on to claim that its lighter than all other sport bike wheels, not just the RC51. I say lets wait until the numbers are in, before the claims of TRUTH start. but ya'll can start claiming what ya like, I'll wait until the numbers are in. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
Chop, have you taken a quick look at an XB front wheel and any other stock sportbike wheel? I would say the reasonable conclusion that needs to be "disproved" is that the XB wheel is much lighter. I will wait until the numbers are in as well, but in the meantime I will believe my eyes. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Choptop |
looks are fine, facts are even better. You rely on what you will, personnally I put more vaule in the facts. oh, and as a side note... this years GSXR1000 has larger discs than last years. and no, I didnt just eyeball them... the meauresments say so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
A simple observation certainly qualifies as valid evidence. I observe that the probability is ridiculously minute that current conventional repli-racer front wheel/brake assemblies have shed 8 LBs compared to that of the RC51. I observe the reality of what comprises the Buell ZTL versus the conventional repli-racer front wheel/brake assemblies. I observe the following: The OEM wheel/brake assemblies at issue are all comprised of identical density aluminum alloy with identical density steel disk(s). Given that we need only compare appropriately the relative volumes of the two metals. Visual observation is valid if significant and obvious differences are readily apparent between the two configurations. That is indeed the case.
I am a structural analyst by profession. This isn't any kind of technical leap of faith for me. I would be interested to know the hard numbers though, even without the calipers and caliper support brackets. Does dealer parts information include accurate weights? Call a dealer and tell him you'd like to know the actual weight of a complete new R6 front wheel assembly minus the tire. (Message edited by blake on July 25, 2005) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Choptop |
points you miss.... 8 pots vs. 6 pots... braking advantage 8 pots, lower input needed for same craking effect, better feedback... hubs... you obviously havent even looked at modern sport bike wheels, all of the bikes in my garage have lightening holes in the hubs spokes... have you seen the "C" section sopkes on modern sport bike wheels? prolly not, since you havent seen the hubs... or the hollow spokes on other wheels? prolly not. being a structual engineer, I'm sure you can expound on the advantages of "C" section structures or hollow "tubes" as opposed to flat plates. disks... total fiction surface area... two discs = more surface area, more friction, more feel/feedback at lower input forces. I have no idea about dealer info... Dont even know if they would know... all I know is that there is one way to find out... measure them. we'll shall see. again, a lighter wheel is better than a heavier one... but if the total system isnt better all the way around... whats the point? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Do you want to digress again back to which brake is more powerful? Thought that was settled. Buell doesn't claim that the their ZTL brake is more powerful than the repli-racer's dual disk 8-pot binders. But they are more than powerful enough to flip the bike over, which is plenty powerful enough. Remember Craig Jones stoppie distance record? Thought that we were talking about which wheel/brake assembly is lighter? Please stay focused.  I'll give you the lightening holes in the hub. Inside of the radius where the disk mounts there is no torsional brake loading. Between the rim and the connections where the disk carriers are fastened to the hub is where the extra beef is needed on conventional wheels. The advantages of adding a shear web between two flat plates (flanges) is that it enables the spokes to carry significant bending and shear loads. The disadvantafe is that it also adds a lot of mass to the spokes, mass that would not otherwise be required should the spokes not be subjected to said bending and shear loads. You might want to try to get your arms around the difference in the structural loading of the ZTL hub and spokes versus those comprising a conventional wheel before you start trying to impress me with your knowledge of structural sections. On smaller disks... The smaller the radius the higher the clamping load and the higher the friction forces must be to generate the same braking torque. Recall my two free body diagrams and the red arrows? Disadvantage small disk. Advantage larger disk. Yes the two smaller disks provide more surface/friction area. That advantage is largely offset by the increased clamping pressure required to generate the same brake torque at a lesser radius from the axle. Yep, find one and weigh it. If that is what you need to do to convince yourself about the issue. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
The above table corrected...
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| Jima4media |
Blake, The overwhelming majority of dual discs are now 320mm OD, so you can correct your chart to reflect reality. It only adds to your weight argument anyway. Jim | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Was trying to use the lightest possible version. Pretty sure some of the 600cc bikes are using 300mm disks. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jima4media |
OK then your chart should say 600cc bikes 300mm discs. Or 300-320mm instead of 300mm Yamaha R1 320mm Honda CBR1000 300mm Suzuki GSX-R1000 300mm Ducati 999 320mm Suzuki V-Strom 310mm Ducati Multistrata 320mm Kawasaki ZX-10R 300mm Aprilia RSV - 320mm BMW K1200S & R 320mm + ABS BMW 1150GS - 305mm +ABS While researching these brake sizes I discovered that the Honda CBR600RR reduced the weight of their 2005 model by 22 pounds over the 2004 model. That is the weight of the Buell front wheel right there. (Message edited by jima4media on July 27, 2005) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
So two of the liter class repli-racers use the 300mm disks too? I wonder if the Superstock and Superbike machines use them too. Do you know? Do all the 600cc repli-racers have 300mm disks? Like I said, I'm trying to be honest and compare the ZTL against the lightest sport bike wheels out there. I assume that the ones with 300mm disks are probably lighter than those with larger disks. But I don't know for sure. Just trying to give the benefit of the doubt is all. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Call me silly, but I'm much more impressed with carving 8LBs from a front wheel/brake assembly than reducing the weight of a complete motorcycle by 22 LBs. Good on Honda for finding that much fat though. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Xb12rene |
Didn't read the whole thing, but if I saw it right the question for the weight of a whole front wheel of a modern supersportler wasn't answered yet. I couldn't find the weight of a whole setup, therefore I took the weights of the components and added them together. I used of the lightest parts I could find. The weights come from 2 websites: Wheel: from PVM-Website, PVM 5ysp 3.3KG it says it is up to 20% less then stock, therefore Stock about 3.9KG  Rotor: from GSX-R1000.net, Suzuki GSXR1000K3 300mm, 1.71KG each Calibers: also from GSX-R1000.net, Sicom 4-pot, 590g each, this ones are from the Sicom-Brakes!! Calculated weight: PVM-setup: 7.9KG calc. stock: 8.5KG I didn't account for the other parts and the tire so these calculated weights are on the lowest end of the possible for a Stock-Setup. I don't know the weight of the Buell front, so if somebody knows let us know. Rene | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jima4media |
Acid from SacBorg weighed his front wheel and dual 320mm rotors and Brembo brakes on a GSX-R1000 race bike. 24 pounds. The only pictures I have of race bikes brakes are of Duhamel's and Zemke's CBR1000 and CBR600RRs, and Jason DiSalvo's R1 and R6 race bikes. All 320mm. Jason is running ceramic brakes this year. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Court |
>>>Acid from SacBorg weighed his front wheel and dual 320mm rotors and Brembo brakes on a GSX-R1000 race bike. 24 pounds. Someone really took the time to do that? WOWZER! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Firemanjim |
Why not, he had it off and the scale was in the garage?? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve_a |
Per XB12rene's post above 3.9 kg wheel 3.4 kg two rotors 4.2 kilo front tire (estimate -- that's a light tire) 11.5 kilo total about 25.3 pounds total for GSX-R1000 A similar package for the Ulysses weighs 21.95 pounds. It's safe to say that of the XB12R is at least a pound lighter because of the rim differences, perhaps more because of the tire difference. That would place the GSX-R1000 more than 4 pounds heavier than that of an XB12R, perhaps a little more, and that doesn't count any differences in calipers, spacers, axle, etc. (Message edited by steve_a on July 28, 2005) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Jim, Are you saying it is 24 LBs of wheel/disks and calipers for Acid's GSXR front wheel? Steve, So the GSXR wheel/brake is at least 4 LBs heavier than the Buell ZTL and that is not including brake pads, caliper support bracketry, and calipers. Pretty conclusive evidence it seems. (Message edited by blake on July 29, 2005) |
