| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>>Now, do you understand the concept of gyroscopic effect? That's the flip side of the coin. You'll recall that about 6 years ago, when there were several folks making rim mounted rotors, that knowing folks like Reg did tests of them in Battle 2Win. The conclusion then was that the gyroscopic precession, attributable to the amount and location (moment arm) of the weight more than offset any advantages sneaking in a much larger rotor. But, the entire slate of reasons it was not a good idea were related to the weight of the wheel. No one had thought to look at the entire system. I've been riding a 2005 XB9SX with the ZTL rotor. I really haven't done enough seat time to declare it better, I'd call it "as good as" at this point. The one thing it does do it make a point that Buell engineers are in motion and looking at every system on the bike. In addition, I suppose you could argue that the "traditional" system was developed to the max and, even if at this point it's only "just as good" the ZTL offers more room for further development. In addition, and you'll have to concede this point....it looks AWESOME. (remember to tell me, next time we meet, why it's on the right) I've had the City]super{X} parked places and folks who are only mildly interested in motorcycles seem drawn to the bike. In the long run, this may produce incremental sales that could fuel/fund further R&D. Better or worse? Could be a tough call, particularly if one person is arguing from a race track point of view and the other from a street warrior perspective. Court | ||
| Bomber |
wow -- after a 600 mile weeknd (srping has FINALLY sprung here near the City of Big Shoulders and Windy politicos!), I am amazewd at the number of folks what would rather write about motorsicles rather than ride motorcycles . . . ah, well, I'm sure it's something I'll understand later, when I'm older ;-} | ||
| Mikej |
Does anyone know of a decent discussion/tech site for a Suzuki GSXR750? I haven't even started reading/catching up on the postings since last Friday morning, but by the looks of a few of the immediately previous postings maybe I should have before posting this, but no matter - posted anyways.  | ||
| Spike |
Apologies for responding to a statement directed at M1. I've ridden the Mille, twice. Once was an on an earlier model that had seen it's fair share of track time and certainly wasn't the prettiest Mille you've ever seen. It was owned by a notably intelligent character who encouraged me to push the bike to get a good feel for it. The other Mille was an '03 model in stock form with very low miles on it. I've also putted around on a 999, but it's owned by my brother-in-law who hasn't yet let me take it out for a good thrashing so I can't comment on it's performance. The Milles both left me with the same nervous feeling. Don't get me wrong, the Mille is a fantastic bike with lots of motor and great brakes that offer really nice feedback. What really got me was that I never felt settled when riding the Mille. It would turn in easily enough and responded to input quite well, but it never seemed to communicate as clearly as the XB. It just didn't feel very stable and didn't give me much confidence. I had the chance to take one of the Milles down a really bumpy road and found it to be even worse when the pavement turned sour. The bike just wouldn't stop moving over bumpy roads. It didn't feel planted at all and that made it really difficult to find out what the bike was capable of. Frankly, it scared me as a rider and made me doubt my own abilities. Now, you could try to chalk that up to me just not being familiar with the Mille, and I'd almost agree with that. I don't doubt the Mille's abilities and I'm sure given enough time I could learn to go quite fast on it. On the other hand, I vividly remember my first ride on the XB. It was some time in late '02 when I had a chance to ride a dealer's XB9R demo bike. I remember feeling quite amazed at what the bike was capable of. I remember pitching it over to lean angles I wasn't yet comfortable with and realizing the bike felt rock-solid stable. Despite not being familiar with the bike at all it ultimately left me feeling confident with it's abilities and left me as a rider feeling like I was capable of much more. I later had the chance to ride an XB9R for the 500 mile break in period. It was at that time that I really got a chance to see what the Firebolt was made of. During those 500 miles I had to reset my entrance speed to every corner I knew. I remember having a brisk but casual ride to work one day only to realize I had gone through a particular set of corners faster than I ever had before. I remember riding to my girlfriend's house one Sunday morning and taking only a slight detour to make a few laps around the cloverleaf at I-40 and 440. On my 2nd or 3rd lap around I remember catching a TL1000S rider in full leathers. I followed him for half a dozen or so laps around the clover only to realize I was fully capable of sitting right on his rear tire and even considered going by him on the inside a few times. Fortunately a little maturity slipped in and I decided passing on the inside of an exit ramp on a public road while wearing jeans would not have been the best of ideas, even if it would have been really fun. Does this prove the XB is "better" than the Mille? Heck no, this is as subjective as it gets. But while some will attempt use a transponder or a dyno to prove that Aprilia has used it's talents to build a faster motorcycle, I'll counter with a giant grin, worn out tires, and a set of worn in knee pucks to prove that Erik has used his talents to build a faster rider. Mike Luddy, Jr. '04 XB12R | ||
| M1combat |
"If ZTL, as demonstrated on the Buell, is SUCH a great thing, the why do none of the MotoGP bikes use it? " Because it offers slightly less power (but better initial power and bite if you ask me, which equals better feel for modulation). The best thing it /i{does} do for you isn't exactly related to stopping itself, but having more "robust" brakes. Brakes that work VERY well over washboard bumps and that sort of thing (with the added benefit that the front suspension works VERY well over bumps while leaned over too). There aren't too many GP tracks that have lots of bumps... Try IOM though... Plenty of bumps there, and the ZTL system would do VERY well there... VERY well... "The conclusion then was that the gyroscopic precession, attributable to the amount and location (moment arm) of the weight more than offset any advantages sneaking in a much larger rotor. But, the entire slate of reasons it was not a good idea were related to the weight of the wheel. No one had thought to look at the entire system." Thanks Court  . A lot like the exhaust thing eh? "I understand the concept of ZTL. Now, do you understand the concept of gyroscopic effect? " Uhhh, yeah... Look at Court's reply though, he said it well. Apparently you are having trouble with the concept of "Depth of Vision". Just because the brake system is different doesn't mean they went with that system because it makes better BRAKES. The brakes are very close to on par with many other world class brakes (and I think they could be made a tad better than they are now with a radially mounted 8 piston caliper) but the real advantage of the ZTL lies elsewhere... It's called "Road Holding Ability" as defined by the book "High Performance Race Driving Techniques". "RIDE a 999. RIDE a Mille. Then, get back to me. Until you do, you are no different than the MCT who has no real world experience. " I can tell you right now that Linux is a better OS for what most (like 80% or better) people do at businesses all over the world... Why don't people use it though?} (Message edited by M1Combat on May 23, 2005) | ||
| Henrik |
Mike (a.k.a. Spike); very nicely written. Pretty much how I feel Besides, despite many interesting and well phrased comments, the discussion seems to have dissolved into a debate whether "Apples taste similarly to the sound of the color blue ..." Henrik | ||
| M1combat |
" the discussion seems to have dissolved into a debate whether "Apples taste similarly to the sound of the color blue ..." , that's not too far off the mark, it's just that people keep saying that Apples are vegetables . | ||
| Spike |
Wait a minute . . . are you trying to say that they gave you blue kool-aid?? No fair! | ||
| Henrik |
Well, it may be the Kool-Aid talking, but since I ordered a Big Honkin' Gulp serving, the serving staff may have thought I deserved it ... or had it coming ... or something like that  Henrik | ||
| Spike |
With my Cyclone I used to go through withdrawls from not enough kool-aid. At one point I even considered buying an Aprilia. Fortunately, my Firebolt has been fitted with direct-port kool-aid injection so I get my fix every time I ride it. | ||
| Grndskpr |
It was deals gap, and it was not a honda 305, it was a honda XR-650, complete with knobbies as a matter of fact. Mine experience was also at Deals Gap, but it was a bright Yellow Gold Wing, that just made me and another poster look stupid, that thing looked like Big Bird rolling down the road, but i didnt see him for long, Of course he was a former road racer and had cajones made of steel, and we even have video to prove it, fun time R | ||
| Davegess |
A road racer on a bicycle will make most of us on motorbikes slow. | ||
| Blake |
Vik, Somewhere buried in the archives is a discussion about the XB's ZTL brake system's contribution to front wheel gyroscopic effect. You will probably be surprised by how negligible it truly is. First off, gyroscopic effect increases proportionally with radius squared, thus the front tire is by far the dominant factor, then comes the rim, then the rotor(s) and wheel spokes. Second, gyroscopic effect increases proportionally with mass; the ZTL rotor has about one fourth the mass of the front tire. And finally, the use of significantly lighter wheel spokes enabled by the ZTL configuration tends to offset the added rotational inertia of the ZTL disk compared to smaller conventional dual disks. Most likely, the ZTL might contribute an additional 5% to the gyroscopic effect of the front wheel assembly. Best case, it is a wash. My view is that such considerations are really only germane to performance on a race track at high speed anyway. However, reduced unsprung weight is a good thing anywhere, and with only one caliper and disk and a significantly lighter wheel, the ZTL reduces unsprung mass of the front wheel by over 20%! That is very significant and a truly amazing leap forward in the world of motorcycle suspension technology. I'd have to agree that the conventional dual disk configuration is preferred for racing on a nice smooth venue like a track. On a bumpy road however, the 7 to 9 LBs of lost unsprung mass significantly improves the performance capabilities of any front suspension, namely it greatly enhances the ability to keep rubber planted on road. Interesting you mention dirt tracking machines and their lack of a front brake. I cannot think of another venue where front grip over a terribly bumpy surface is more crucial. With all else equal, the ability of the front suspension to keep the rubber on the road over a bumpy surface is in direct proportion to the front wheel assembly's lack of unsprung mass. This leads me to a very simple mental experiment... Imagine a fork spring supporting a mass equivalent to 100 LBs. Stretch it five inches and let it go. How long does it take the spring to reach return to its original undisturbed length (that it is undamped and will overshoot is not important for this experiement)? It will take the spring a significant measurable interval to pull the 100 LB mass through the five inches, we can be sure of that. Now remove the mass and do the same, stretch only the spring itself five inches and let it go. It will return to its undisturbed length almost instantaneously, hindered only by its own mass. An extreme example to be sure, but hopefully you get the idea. Significantly reduced unsprung mass is massively beneficial to the efectiveness of any suspension when negotiating bumpy surfaces. This ain't just theory; it is honest to goodness real world applied technology and it rocks. Fun stuff. Like I said, the math is in the archives somewhere. Finally, try doing this on your XB:  You mean like this?...  Still room for saddle bags too. Hey, you could mount a saddle bag on the left side of your CBR. Then again the chain goo could be problematic. Looks to me like the XB has your CBR beat in the area of pack mule capability by a long shot. But I agree. Ride what moves you. That is the only important criteria for one's own motorcycle. (Message edited by blake on May 23, 2005) | ||
| Mikej |
(sometimes there are too many parallel threads to keep track of on here. )  | ||
| Josh_ |
Be careful with your gixer http://www.1tail.com/2005_GSXR_frame/ | ||
| M1combat |
Just read the last six or seven pages Mike . | ||
| Mikej |
Bondo-welding. Thanks for the link. | ||
| Spike |
Holy Schnikeys!! Put that in your "superior build quality" pipe and smoke it! Mike Luddy, Jr. '04 XB12R | ||
| Ebear |
  You may be lookin' down now Brother...but you'll be looking up real SOON!!! Get well VINCENT..!!!...GO CHECKERS!! | ||
| Sporticus |
I originally posted this in the Knowledge Vault, but didn't get any responses. I haven't been able to get the rear brake working in all the years that I've owned my 1997 S3. Fortunately, the front brake is more than sufficient. I've taken the master cylinder apart, as well as the caliper, and both look fine to the naked eye. Still hoping that this is just my inability to bleed the system, I try new and different ways to bleed the rear brake every now and then (figuring the novelty of two working brakes might be nice!). I'm persistent, but today was the LAST time. The piston in the m/c is plastic, which can't be conducive to long life. The H-D dealership reports that no rebuild parts are available. Does anyone know anything different? Are there any aftermarket sources of rebuild parts? Has anyone else had problem with the rear m/c? The bike's got about 25K miles on it. Has anyone got a new or [known to work] used m/c they'd like to part with? Thanks! | ||
| Shotgun |
Sporticus, I think there is a re-build kit available, in fact I bought one and put it in my rear mc on my M2. The brake still sucks, but now it will hold at a stop light. On level ground. Usually. | ||
| Hotrodsportster |
American Sport Bike has a 2 piston Brembo caliper kit that will really makes the rear braking system work. At less then $450 delivered to your door, it is a steal. Try one, you will never go back to stock rear brakes again Ride Safe (Message edited by Hotrodsportster on May 23, 2005) | ||
| Mbsween |
Sporticus, Dave S can help you with the rebuild kit. I got that and a new set of pads from him. After the rebuild I could actually lock the rear wheel with the brake. I had to stomp lick heck to get it done, but it will lock now. Anyways that might help you out for a reasonable cost. But with that front brake, its pretty easy to forget about the back | ||
| Brianh |
Wow! All I can say is Wow! Having taken a few steps back and hopefully broadening my horizons with motorcycle stuff, coming back here gets a big fat WOW! Decision made! I'm investing in Harley stock tomorrow because the company is never going out of business. Marketing as an artform of the highest degree. It's simply amazing to witness. M1, you truly tempt me to dive into my old bag of tricks. But I'm beyond that now. It's only a point of view afterall. Right? Speaking of which, when did a 55" wheel base become "long"? Why does everyone assume that a shorter wheelbase is better? I'll take the stability of my 56.7" wheelbase for the street anytime! I defy any of youse XB disciples to keep my tail light in sight on the street with my BIG, obviously poor handling bike. I will give you your props though. In a parking lot race...you got me. Blake, I have just one thing to ask about the ZTL brake and the just shy of 90 degree angle of the XB fork. With all that insane geometry and innovation, why does the XB feel so heavy to turn? Both of the ones I rode turned in slow and the faster I went the heavier it felt. Why?  (Message edited by brianh on May 23, 2005) | ||
| Rippin |
VR1203 Are you still around? Going to RA next week? Ryan | ||
| Brianh |
Oh, and in the background of this picture, Mr. Buell is explaining how fantastic the Fuel Injection is on the new X1. So if we apply that knowledge to the ZTL thing... hmmmmmm....  | ||
| Blake |
Not sure "slow" is the right characterization. Might you mean "with more effort"? Still challenging people to race?... on the street??? I hereby accept yet another of your hollow challenges. I choose the road. No worries for you though; I'll just be riding my eight year old donkey bike, which I can promise you does not handle as well as an XB. I predict that after just the first nine miles I will be able to park my bike, spray paint "Cecil can't ride" onto the middle of the road and remount still well ahead of you. I choose the road. Put up, or shut up. And sorry bud, you are wrong about that pic; Mr. Buell is talking about mass centralization, not fuel injection. | ||
| M1combat |
Ummm, The rider in that pic up there is leaning the wrong way... Anyway... "Speaking of which, when did a 55" wheel base become "long"? Why does everyone assume that a shorter wheelbase is better? I'll take the stability of my 56.7" wheelbase for the street anytime! I defy any of youse XB disciples to keep my tail light in sight on the street with my BIG, obviously poor handling bike. " Well, I don't think it was said that it's "long" exactly, just long compared to an XB is all... It IS 6% longer... That would be reasonably obvious to the naked eye. It is longer... I'm not too sure that any of us "assume" that a shorter wheelbase is better in and of itself. In this case though, it just plain works. You'll notice that they do extend the swingarm for the FX race bikes. I doubt that helps handling too much, but it does help to keep the front planted a little better under acceleration. Also, with the higher loads generated by stickier race tires I would imagine that it has the effect of allowing the rear tire to more closely match the vertical (relative to the frame) movement of the front... Granted, you're still talking an arc and a straight line, so the system will never be perfect... Much closer with a Buell than a bike with more rake though (Unless of course you stand the swingarm on end, but then you get huge dive issues...). Would you agree that with most bikes you would tend to raise the rear ride height to make them handle a little better and be a bit more responsive? "I'll take the stability of my 56.7" wheelbase for the street anytime!" LOL ... Sure, an engineer can use wheelbase as a bandaid for stability all they want to. What is stability though? Stability is the characteristic of a motorcycle to hold a chosen line even while acted upon by sometimes unseen creators of, and generally unwanted, forces. What sort of forces affect this thing called stability? Well, bumps for one... Another would be gyroscopic precession. Maybe another would be called rider input. The Buell ZTL front WHEEL system does a great job of soaking up the bumps AND getting the tire back on the road. Don't even try to debate that one... There's this thing called physics that'll smack you upside the head if you try. Bumps... Check. With regards to gyroscopic precession and the stability it can add... Just take a look at the flywheels in an HD engine. Plenty-O-Stability Generation there... Check. On the subject of rider input... All this stability generating stuff can certainly (IMO) make it a little more difficult to push on the inside bar. That's OK by me though... Unlike that guy giving the bird to Erik up there I have some upper body strength. Flickability at high speed... Check. I'm sure if someone decided to use the "radical" (yeah, that MUST equal unstable...) suspension geometry with an IL4 engine, or a short stroke V-Twin it would indeed be less stable (Although a heavy assed front wheel would certainly bring some of it back... SOME of it). In this package however, it just plain works . Please take a look at the forest. There's really more to it than those "gimmicky" trees. | ||
| Eeeeek |
You'll excuse me if I take a slight break from the debate. I spent the entre day at the track and I'm beat. Blake, I love that you got a ventura on an XB. Dig up one of your old M2 touring photos, please. Vik | ||
| M1combat |
You know... It's kind of funny that you mention inferior stability AND a difficulty in leaning the bike at high speed in the same post. Maybe it's just me . |
