| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
I think I did pick a class... I said a Mille... A Mille... Not WSBK, Not Superbike, Not FX, not anything but "Mille" (Oh, and 999...). I didn't say beat them at their own game. I said Mille. To me that meant a Mille... Get my point now? That's why I feel the Rennsport's would be a good choice. Because we're running against a Mille. That includes the tires. I didn't say a Mille prepped for Superbike or anything else. Someone else decided I must have meant a superbike spec Mille... Got it? Thanks. "My point about the Triumph was to remind you how an incredible rider on an thrashed last legs bike(HIS words) could shame you in your house..." I still don't think I was there that day... I honestly don't remember it. "You have demonstrated that you don't know how much engine work truly costs, " You'll do well to notice that I didn't say where we would end up with $3K, just that I think that 110-115 HP is somewhere in the right range with that amount of money. IF we get there, then we'll have an equally powerful bike that is a meaningful chunk lighter (quite a bit lighter in the case of the 999) and on comparable suspension components. The beauty about that is that we don't even have to actually hit that mark... We can just aim there and as long as we get reasonably close we'll have a comparable power to weight ratio. After that it's pretty much about geometry... | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
SuperDave it is a "Speedway" replica as they are raced in Europe IIRC. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I think you choose to not remember it Don, that was the day that I had the lowside and locked the trans in 4th. Ok, so we have the cost of a STOCK Mille as a cap. Again, are you suggesting the use of MSRP? or Real World cost? I ask because I know someone just picked up a brand new 0 mile '04 Mille for $9500 out the door. I just want to make sure all the players are on the same playing field for this discussion. | ||
| Imeazy |
Superdave - here's a link I found. I think it is an ice racing machine, but I can't read the page. http://www.speedway.org/portraits/beru/ | ||
| Choptop |
tap, tap tap... the Mille IS the RSV....and is the same frame that they used in WSBK since you choose not to answer my very direct, very consice and easy to understand question.. I can only assume that you dont want to... because you indeed HAVENT ridden either, and therefore would REALLY know anything about either bike. stop me at any time... anytime I run across anything that I'm assuming that isnt true... fill me in. So... without knowing anything about these bikes you've chose to opine about how a bike you knwo a little about could be made equal if not better than them... not wise. You've quoted stats, price, weight... but fail to understand the true nature of any of the 3 bikes. I dont care if an XB has more horsepower than a Mille or 999, I dont care if the XB comes in a few pounds lighter, I dont care how much money you put into it, it aint gonna hang with either the Mille or 999. Thats not opinion, its not congenture... its the nature of the bikes. They bikes are different. Made for different purposes. If one could judge the relative abilities of a bike just by looking at the price and stats of a bike, we wouldnt need to race them. But there is much more to a bike than its stats. How the whole package works together goes along way, how the power is delivered, on and on... The XB is fine bike, we've all said that. Insisting it can be put on the same plane as a Mille or 999 just makes you look more than a little silly to those that have the experience of riding, racing and/owning all 3. Having an opinion about something is fine... but when more than few people start to question the opinion, and start to offer up direct experience that points the other way, the prudent usually listen. Again, GO RIDE these bikes and then report back. until then... you just make yerself look silly. as for the price of a Mille dont forget the $3500 rebate offered by Aprilia to those that put two races in on thier bike. | ||
| Choptop |
yep, that was my first guess too... ice racer. | ||
| Superdave |
Imeazy - yep, looks like it. Thanks! Now if I can find what bike brand it is... Dave | ||
| Superdave |
I sent the picture to my stepdad who is 86 years old. He says it is a speedway bike (ice) with probably a Jawa engine, but doesn't know the chassis. Sidebar - Keith (stepdad) bought his first motorcycle in 1936, didn't stop riding until he married my mom in 1996, and has never owned anything but Harleys. Ain't that something? He has some funny stories about riding in "the good old days". Thanks for the help Dave | ||
| Superdave |
No gears, no brakes, 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Not for me, thanks... | ||
| Eeeeek |
I call the Mille a Superbike because that's what it is. A GSXR1000 is a superbike, a 999 is a superbike, an R1 is a superbike, etc. That's what the category is called. And yes, I'm talking the ones you buy for the street. It's a category, much like the XB is a "Streetfighter." I really don't understand the weight you put on Rennsports. You also seem to assume that the Mille comes with crap tires. Regardless, I've ridden all three bikes in question. Now answer Chop's question: Have you? | ||
| Court |
I haven't ridden the Mille or the 999, so I am just watching. What a great group! | ||
| BadS1 |
I've ridden a 999-S but maybe a mille if Dave let me take her for a spin. | ||
| Brianh |
I've ridden both a 2001 Mille and 2 XB9R's. I gotta go with the Mille in that comparison. Not because I'm predisposed, but I think it's better looking, more powerful, has better technology, better brakes, and fits my 6'3" frame better. The font used on the guage cluster is much more mature too. To clarify the OHR thing, it's not that I'm afraid of tight tracks. I'm just not willing to put out good money to run on a track of that caliber. That's all. Plus it bugs Blake when I critisize his favorite go-cart track. How about Barber or Jennings or Pocono or VIR or Summit Point? Actually a Buell at Summit would get creamed because of the 2200ft straight. As for the SV vs XB comparison, first, it speaks volumes that these two bikes are compared to one another! I assume we're talking SV650 because an SV1000 with a shock and fork work would easily dispatch an XB with similar mods. An SV650 is an economy bike that is not even marketed as a street fighter / superbike / racer or anything. The mere fact that we're comparing these two bikes demonstrates where the XB has fallen in the heirarchy of motorcycling. I don't think anyone can argue that the XB chassis is pretty cool. I wish someone out there would modify it and stick a Revo motor in it. Then I'd be singing a different tune. The brakes, you can have that garbage. Very campy and gimmicky if you ask me. Suck it up and put 2 radial mounted calipers on the thing. Dump the belt and the shopping cart wheel and give us a swingarm where we can adjust chain tension. You know, perhaps Buell screwed themselves with all that proprietary stuff. An SV is easily a better choice for the track simply because it's easier to work on and modify! What a nightmare changing gearing is on an XB or doing a chain conversion! It's just not a good platform for the track. They way I look at it is that you can have a CBR600RR for $7500. It has more power, better looks, and is infinitely more reliable. You may call that cookie cutter or generic. But as I get older I find that I'd rather have the attention focused on ME rather than my bike. I want people to watch me ride and go, damn that dude is fast. I hope they have no idea what bike I'm on. And that brings me to the purpose of owning a Buell. It has nothing to do with performance or track capability. It has to do with being "different". The goal is not to build a bike that competes directly with other bikes. Although I'd have to say that the CityX is grasping at marketing straws to increase sales. So the act of trying to compare a Buell to any sort of race rep bike or well built SV is dumb. It'll lose in every category. It's not designed to compete with those bikes. You're buying an image and an idea with your Buell, not a powerhouse of a motorcycle. Unfortunately M1, it appears that you'll be learning that little tidbit on your own. I know how strong the opinions of Buellers are. No point in arguing. THAT's for sure. Lastly, speaking of dry weights. Sure, an XB is impressive at 395lbs. But have you seen the wet weight????!!! What's up with that? | ||
| Court |
Here....I'll toss a couple Fizzies in the water.
What would you do? By the way . . . I *REALLY* enjoy having our Badweb graduate trouble makers back!  In this case I agree with a lot they are saying...but in any case, agree or not, they provide a refreshing reminder that folks of differing opinions can discuss them. Brian knows he's never gonna sell me on the Mille, but I know he knows what he's talking about and I enjoy knowing more. Court | ||
| Court |
Ferris: Funny isn't it. . . you and I are the two smartest and best looking folks here (now that both Brian and Henrik have lost their tails) and neither of us knows enough to argue. I knew I knew something, but was counting on you. Ferris....we are idiots. I'm going riding, suggest you do the same. Court P.S. - MikeyP is "pretty smart" but you are going to have to stir the post a lot more furiously to draw him in. | ||
| Danny |
I was just telling the Tee-joo-wanna story at work yesterday. "What country were you born in?" "Uhh, United States?" Jeans and work gloves... I was so young then. Danny | ||
| Blake |
Let's recall some pertinent history... The very first year of its introduction, Mike Cicotto took an undeveloped XB race machine to within two points of winning the AMA Pro-Thunder championship against an ex World Superbike rider on a tricked out Jeff Nash (Advanced Motorsposrts) Ducati. Where's our resident Trojan-Horse/Adrenalin Moto man when we need him. Hey Matt! Come on join the fun!  Curiously Matt and his team and rider apparently never heard of the gross inferiority of the XB to the Milles and Ducs on the track while on their way to winning their season championship last year while competing against those very bikes. An XB competing in SBK? Nope. Not a competitive machine there. In Formula Xtreme? I have no doubt that a well developed 1350cc XB could go head to head with the Honda FX 600cc IL4's. Too bad the factory is not yet able to see their way to fielding a full-on factory FX effort on par with HRC. Maybe next year. Some people like to poke fun at my local track. Oak Hill Raceway is a rustic place to race, a 1.8 mile long tight and twisty track laid out among the hills of East Texas. OHR can certainly cause the novice rider much anxiety and consternation. It is interesting to note that in casual conversation with ex-CMRA racers John Haner and Ben Spies, each on separate occassions made similar statements that if one can ride fast at OHR, one could do so anywhere. More than one prominent AMA racing team regularly comes to OHR to conduct testing. Brian, you ever actually road-race a motorcycle? There is as much a difference in going from track days to racing as their is in jumping from riding aggressively on the street to doing track days. Some egos cannot handle the racing scene though. It is the ultimate put up or shut up test. Too bad you are so far from E. TX. Or maybe convenient. Alan, I've never ridden an SV, so I cannot comment from personal experience. But I cannot agree that the SV is "much more suited to be a race bike" ocmpared to an XB. Fun stuff. I still prefer my '97 Cyclone, track or street, over any other machine available today. And that even after the charging system pooped out on me halfway to the Ozarks earlier this month. No big deal. The abuse that bike has withstood without suffering anything more serious than that is truly a credit to its quality. | ||
| Blake |
Nice to see you guys back and joining in on the fun here. | ||
| Clydeglide |
Nice to see you guys back and joining in on the fun here. I hope the "noobs" appreciate the intensity of those who came before them. It was this site and the stories from the Homecoming in Y2K that made this place interesting to me. I have only met a few but as my list of "must meet" people grows, I too, have this place to thank for that. Regardless of what bikes we ride now, we all know that it was because of Erik and his bikes that we are here. For that I am grateful. LOL, This is the liveliest discussion going on in any forum I lurk or participate in. Whoda thunk?  (Message edited by Clydeglide on May 21, 2005) | ||
| Brianh |
1. I'm not fast. 2. Yes, OHR is just a tad larger than a BattleTrax course. Top speed? Like 97mph if you're really cooking. While that might squeeze every ounce of performance out of Blake's bike, my old 600 likes to stretch its legs a bit more. I'm sure that the track is very technical and tests one's skills quite well. Those tight little low speed tracks seem to be more dangerous than the properly sized places. And I can only imagine the paddock at a place that size. Good for locals, not good enough for taking a drive to Texas. That's what I mean by caliber of track. Barber? Now that's for me! VIR? I understand that's for me too! OHR? That's not for me! And just for the record, I'll never run Carolina Motorsports Park either. I hated that place. 3. I may roadrace this year with my local club. But then, I may not either. I do this for fun and I'm 35 years old with a family and a good job. It's a big enough risk doing what I do. I'm smart enough to know that I'd never win and in that case I question why I would even bother. Perhaps it's the rush of turn 1??? Maybe that's worth it. But if I don't have an honest podium shot or get paid or something, why take a greater chance? For a trophy? I've already been clobbered on the race track by another rider I was dicing with. That one cost me $2000+ and I have no desire to repeat that. If you call that ego, so be it. 4. At this point I'm actually rooting for Buell to take the next step. I've said it before until you were all tired of hearing it, but it's that motor holding the product back. In it's present form you cannot deny that it's more reliable and puts out more power than ever. It's still not good enough. When you can get a 105rwhp CBR with inverted forks, radial brakes, and all the goodies, why would you consider an $8500 XB...for street or track use??? Image-Yes. Sound-Yes. Looks-I suppose. Loyalty-definitely. Performance-? Value-? C'mon guys, lets be honest. I'd like to have a conversation about what's holding them back rather than debating whether or not the product is up to par. When I see BMW coming out with aggressive GT bikes, KTM nailing the streetfighter thing, Aprilia producing Mille R's when they're in bankruptcy, why the heck isn't Buell put a psycho bike out there? Why is the only improvement to the XB series 3 years later a transparent gas tank and a smaller belt drive? Oh yea, they got bigger forks now too. Hey, I'd own an XB if I found one for the right price. I just don't know if I could take the ribbing I'd get from my friends. I doubt I could put up with the dealerships and parts departments. And I would for sure be worried about the reliability if I started hammering it. Why can't Buell convert a guy like me? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Why is the only improvement to the XB series 3 years later a transparent gas tank and a smaller belt drive? Oh yea, they got bigger forks now too. Year one came the bike...year two, came the exhaust, better belt system, and a larger motor...year three came larger forks and a reworked FI system...that sounds right about on par with the three year stretch of the major import manufacturers... Why can't Buell convert a guy like me? I believe its because your prefer revs over torque. Alot of people, and for a long time I was one of those people, enjoyed riding more when they felt like they were ringing the hell out of a bike simply because of how the bike feels above 9000 rpm. Knowing the motor is wound out, and then twisting it more to get into the meat of the powerband. Its one hell of a thrill definately. I just got tired of that kind of thrill, I could only enjoy it on open stretches, I found being able to feel the bike just power out of a corner is more of an adrenaline rush. And this is going from owning a '03ZX6RR and an '04XB12 at the same time and riding both aggressively in the canyons, I actually got frustrated on the ZX in the canyon, but loved it on the long wide open sweepers and straights. But the XB just fit me all around, and I didn't have to rev its balls off just to ride where I prefer. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh, and No. | ||
| Blake |
FYI: I finished my 5-day Ozark weekend by swapping batteries with another Bueller, pulling the fuse on the headlight, and then recharging the battery every evening back at camp. OHR is no Battle-Trax course. More like a rustic Barber. Not a forgiving venue. No curbs, only grass or dirt for runoff. And what the hell is a "paddock"?  The fast riders on the fast bikes are easily hitting over 120 mph at OHR before braking coming into 40 mph turn 2. | ||
| Loki |
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