| Author | Message | ||
     Choptop |
ok, to clear it up... no pointless sarcasm. not slamming anyone that is "pro-buell". but to say XB could be brought to the point to be competitive with a Mille or 998 is way off base. I dont care what make of motorcycle you are a fan of... it has nothing to do with being an enthusaist. | ||
| M1combat |
I didn't say that the Gix front end was any less capable than the XB front end... Although I will now as long as you'll let me narrow down the path we're following. That path being the road. I'll give up a couple feet of brake distance for a front end that sticks to washboard bumps like the road is smooth as glass any day. Keep in mind I ride on the street... I ride where there ARE washboard bumps. Think "Isle of Mann"... Plenty-O-Bumps. Come to think of it, I was watching the super-sport racing this weekend and noticed that the lions share of the riders were going around the carousel about 3-5' from the inside (although they were using the inside to attempt passing...). There happened to be a fairly sizeable bump at the inside... HMMMM... I wonder if a Buell would be able to stick to the inside there? I think so. Also... I personally know Le-Mans as a VERY bumpy track. Same with road America and many others. The Buell will have a small advantage there in line choice. In case you were wondering, I've tested this myself... There are a few sweepers on the back side of the spars lap that seem to unsettle other bikes. The Buell soaks them up and spits them out without so much as a tiny wobble... Same for road snakes (which admittedly you don't tend to see on many racetracks, but I just thought I'd mention it...). "An XB can be made comptetive with a Mille or 998" As far as that one... I certainly DID say that and I'll stick with it. The differences are about 40 HP in favor of the Duck and Aprilia and a better chassis in favor of the Buell. All the Buell needs to be competitive with either of those is a tidy little engine rebuild  . Even W/O the engine rebuild, the Buell will keep up with either of those bikes in deep enough twisties. Keep in mind that through the spars about 80% of the road is very leaned over. HP is fairly useless there... Any racetrack that's tight... Same story. One other thing... When I run the spars I tend to just put the bike in third and leave it there. Any other bike that I've followed required a couple hundred gear changes... This means I can use more of my $10 just getting around the turns. That's worth a lot of time right there. OK, Fine... One more thing . "well you did say.... seemingly mis-informed idea that the SV is a more viable combination of reliability and ease of maintenance on a race track. seeing as there is little no data on the XB as a track/race bike... and TONS on the SV... its kinda funny... you assume one is mis-informed by favoring the SV." I said "seemingly mis-informed". I'm perfectly willing to eat crow on that one. I assure you though... Of the 14K miles on my 12R, I'd say that 8K of it has been real close to race conditions. To me it seems very reliable, and I know that it's easy to work on. Maybe there's just more speculation in my opinion, but it hasn't been proven wrong yet . Just to be clear that we're all on the same page... I haven't said that the SV is a pile of crap or anything close (the opposite actually). Someone else bashed the XB and did so in a manner that seemed to me to be ill-informed. Like someone that races SV's had filled their ear up for a weekend or something and they hadn't given the XB a fair shake. I could be wrong, but I have looked at turning an XB into a "trackday" weapon, and the couple thousand dollars of difference in preperation IMO is WELL worth it when you consider the end result. I suppose I should put that in context though... I'm talking about racing in a close to open class like FX (or a runwhatyabrung track-day environment). You don't see any SV's in FX do you? No, they wouldn't be viable. The Buell, however, is perfectly competitive there. Faster in some areas *CAUGH*CORNERS*CAUGH*, and the 600's are faster in other areas *CAUGH*STRAIGHTLINES*CAUGH*. In any case, I DO think that both bikes are viable in the classes where they race against each other (who am I to argue with the sanctioning body?). I just think that the Buell has advantages that are more in line with what I look for in a bike (and it doesn't need a Gixxer front end , just maybe a better caliper). | ||
| Superdave |
"I dont care what make of motorcycle you are a fan of... it has nothing to do with being an enthusaist." Amen. I don't own a Buell at the moment so I can't defend it. However, I like Badweb 'cause Buell enthusiasts are so enthusiastic! I don't understand why come here for reasons anti-Buell. I don't have any idea whether an XB can be brought to the point of being competitive with Mille, 998, or Accuras for that matter hahaha...and since I am so non competitve myself I really don't care if it can be done or not . Ha! I'm just happy to be able to ride and enjoy what I have! You can call me old, just don't call me grandpa... Dave | ||
| Eeeeek |
M1: You are making far too many assumptions. The reason people stay a little to the outside in the Carousel is the nature of the curve and where you want to be on the exit. The extreme inside line is not ideal because it will not afford you as good of a drive down the drag strip. Next, you can't tell me an XB will outcorner a 600RR in an FX race because it hasn't happened. The 600 bikes handle extremely well. This also brings up the question: If the Buell is so easy to make competetive against a Duc or Mille, then why is it being mathced against 600s? Even Erik himself does not make the claim that the Buell should run against liter twins. As to whether or not I've given an XB a fair shake, you haven't been here very long, so I'll educate you a little. I have spent an extraordinary amount of time researching what it would take to make an XB a competetive race bike against an SV and whether or not it would be a good option. I've talked with Don Babb at Modesto Ducati (formerly Buell), all the folks at Vallejo, Henry Duga and a number of Buell racers and yes, Erik. I've been around the Buell scene for quite a while. I sruvived the great recall of '99 and by the time I sold it, I had one of the most well sorted out and good looking X1's out there. I've had good seat time on S1s, S2s and XBs (both 9's and 12s, S and R models). Now that I think about it, I even got some good time in on a pre-release Blast! I've had long talks with Court (are there any other kinds) and I've had some real good talks with Erik. Hell, we were damn near toe to toe in Victorville. Anyone around here remember that from the California tourning adventure (a ride that I helped plan three days worth of routes on). The idea that the Buell is the only bike that you don't have to shift gears on in the twisties is a fallacy, too. Just ask Jerry how many times I shift on my Honda. Or ask any of the people who were on the BRAG No Wine'n Ride how their Buells faired against my bike in the twisties, and I'm talking extreme twisties. I sliced throught he Buells at will and never shifted. Finally, the statement that your road conditions are near race conditons is laughable. I wouldn't even say a track day is near race conditions. Seriosuly, there is no way to simlulate a race other than racing. To think that hard street riding is anything like a sprint race is flawed, at best. I would not even liken an A group pace at a track day to a race. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Jerry, BTW, I noticed you were in town last weekend and didn't make it to the races? What better place to bring Mom! You'll excuse me for "stirring it up." I still lurk here (I liked reading about your cross country adventure a while back) and normally let it go. You know I'm still a Buell fan. Like you, though, I'm practicle, first, which is why we both own SV's. Vik | ||
| Eeeeek |
Superdave: I'm not arguing opinions, I'll leave that to M1. I am stating facts. Vik | ||
| Henrik |
I had written a long post, but edited it down to the basics: So far so good, but please remember ... CPR: Courtesy, Peace, Respect Henrik (one huge advantage of the SV as a track day bike/amateaur racer is that it's likely that someone in the Pit area has a spare of the parts you just broke by stiffening up in a turn and crashing like an idiot ... no personal experience, just something I heard ... really ...) | ||
| Eeeeek |
Henrik, I'd like to hear your honest input. Vik | ||
| Eeeeek |
Jerry: I read about you trading in the VFR for a V Strom and thought maybe you had traded that in when I wasn't looking.  Knowing you, you have the V-Strom up to about 20,000 miles now and it looks even cleaner than it did when you first bought it. Vik | ||
| Josh_ |
> Same with road America and many others. The Buell will have a small advantage there in line Last time I was on it RA seemed damn smooth. Maybe I don't ride fast enough. any low HP bike (ie Buells) are at a big disadvantage on a huge open track like RA. My S3 would top out 1/2way down the front straight... at which point everyone else would pass me. Can't wait to put the FJR on there. Is it just me or is Vik arguing the SV is a better choice for a track bike and Don the XB is a great choice for a street bike? An argument like that could go on all day... My buddy sold his low-miles very good condition 99 SV650 for $3k. What's a used XB run? | ||
| M1combat |
"You are making far too many assumptions. " Most likely . However... At the bottom of the carousel the track levels out and leads onto the grag track (as you well know). I wasn't saying that the outside line isn't the quicker way out of the corner. What I said was that I saw quite a few passing attempts using the inside of the corner. Every one of them fell apart about 2/5 of the way around because of the bump (or that's what it looked like). After that bump, there's enough room to move out a ways and then get back on the gas to take advantage of the track leveling out and get a good drive off the corner. A pass CAN be made there, but they didn't seem to work because the bike would get a little unsettled over the bump. I think the Buell would get less unsettled. It would be easier on a Buell to make that particular pass stick IMHO. I understand race lines. "Next, you can't tell me an XB will outcorner a 600RR in an FX race because it hasn't happened." Yes, it has*. As I recall, there were radars positioned to catch mid-corner speeds on at least a few tracks last year in FX. The findings were that the XB's were faster mid-corner. I've watched plenty of video of FX, and it seems to me that the Buells pull away from the 600's on long corners and for a good portion of the next straight. As long as there are no mistakes... every time. I've been a fan of suspension geometry and it's intricasies for a long time... One can LOOK at a Buell and see that it has superior geometry to other bikes. Look at the relation between the rake and the swingarm angle... The Buell's wheel base changes less over bumps than any other bike I've looked at. This also means that the wheelbase changes less with throttle input (except this is somewhat offset by the fact that the wheelbase is short...). This offers more stability and better "ease of use". This is very important at speed. It makes the job of the rider easier. I'm sure you understand that... Maybe I'm just missing something that's fundamental... I can't see how one could say that the XB is less capable after all the suspension is sorted out and upgraded... Maybe not as cost effective per se, but more effective. It's a better platform. Maybe not from a price standpoint, but for the price you're getting one of the sweetest (if not THE sweetest) production chassis money can buy. It can certainly use all the standard upgrades, but the platform itself is superior. *I do have to admit... that's third hand info and I can't back it up . | ||
| Josh_ |
Time to start an FJR section somewhere on here... | ||
| Choptop |
ok.. this is going way out there... but until you've raced the track, raced the bike, made a pass in the corner... its a little out of place to make assumptions about how one bike would handle the corner vs. another. I've yet to hit a bump in the middle of Turn 6. I dont drag my knee in the dirt, but my normal line dosent allow room for anyone to pass me on the inside. THE line around 6 starts tight, bells out in the center, and tightens up at the exit. it has nothing to do with a bump in the center, and passing.. it has everything to do with squaring up the bike to get a good drive on the exit. pass attempts on the inside typically fall apart there cuz the guy that went outside, and made a 'peak' in the line (not a smooth curve), can stand the bike up and roll on sooner. I know, I crashed there last race cuz I started to roll on too soon, too early while holding a smooth curve line. My line has to change to a more pointed version. back to opinion... The XB chasis is nice, but tweaky. Doesnt hold a candle to the Mille chasis, which, if you believe the motorcycling press, is one of the most confidence inspiring around. I can back that sentiment up, having raced my Mille. The XB is a much different bike than the Mille... different class altogether. If yer talking race bike, and we are right? | ||
| Choptop |
Turn 6 done wrong... mms://dcpvideo.scoe.net/test/05-01-05Turn6750Superbikecrash.wmv note: I was wider than usual on the exit. There was a litany of things that i did wrong that day, but the basics come down to not 'pointing' the line, getting the bike stood up before I rolled on. | ||
| M1combat |
"Is it just me or is Vik arguing the SV is a better choice for a track bike and Don the XB is a great choice for a street bike?" Mostly... but I believe that the XB is a better choice for a track bike as well when you remove the money problem. "Same with road America and many others" Hmmm, Maybe I'm thinking a different track... Oh yeah... definately thinking of a different track. I just checked out the track map. Yep, I was thinking Sebring when I said Road America... Sorry. "My buddy sold his low-miles very good condition 99 SV650 for $3k. What's a used XB run?" $5K? | ||
| Choptop |
mid corner speed has little to do with bike, and alot to do with balls. look at the corner speeds and riding styles of 2 stroke riders. | ||
| Eeeeek |
M1: Direct to the point: The XB frame is better than the SV frame. I agree with that 100%. Read back a few posts, I did say that I think the XB can be a class champion against SV's. I don't think it can win against FX bikes, much less a Mille or a 998. History has proven this to be true. I'm not arguing that an XB can't be made better than an SV. I'm saying that very few people are even developing them and XB's are far from running away with titles anywhere, even when only pitted against SV's. These XB's (the best finish by one in WSMC against SV's is a 3rd, the best vs SV's in AFM is a 5th while the best finish of a Buell in FX is a 4th, if I remember correctly). At the club level, it takes a lot more money to make an XB competetive than it does an SV. That's the point I'm making. How that ties into a street discussion is that the race proven mods for the SV directly translate to the street in many cases, allowing for hundreds of affordable upgrades for a SV. Purchase price of an SV plus $1000 for a GSXR front end and good rear shock will put you in under the price of an XB and give you a very versatile, solid street bike. IMO, more versitile than an XB, especially for something like sport touring or commuting. Back to Sears Point, a track I know a little about. Ironically, I have run a Buell there. I have about a dozen track days there, I've competed in about a half dozen sprint races there and I've competed in a 4 hour endurace race there. You learn a lot about a track in an endurance race and turn 6 is not as you describe it. Vik | ||
| Josh_ |
>Josh, prolly not the place, but i'd enjoy talking to you offline and comparing notes. Drop me a line or look for me on the FJR boards. I've got a shade over 7k on my 05 non-ABS and done a few upgrades. My stock rear Z4 is about toast and I'm switching to the Z6 - which happens to be almost 2lbs lighter per tire! Buell content: I'll trailer the RS and FJR to Homecoming. | ||
| Mbsween |
Jerry, you must have an old Buell tail bag or something with a logo, throw that on there and "enhance" your FJR.  More to the point, a friend is thinking about purchasing an Vstrom, any chance I can get a review from you on your experience with the bike? If you have time send it here Nice looking bike by the way, V2win is riding one of those these days I believe Thanks Matt | ||
| Choptop |
ahhhhh suspension geometery.... another fun topic. The XB has some similar to a 250GP bike. Very 'radical'. VERY sensitive to set up. A very SMALL sweet spot. As opposed to other bikes, say a 600 supersport (take yer pick) or an SV. Does that make the XB "better"? Hmmm, some might way yes. But some might say it makes it more "focused", and once it gets outside that focus, it falls flat... sometimes literaly. I'd take a slightly more relaxed set up. Now we are talking "overall", not spending tons of time and effort to set any particular bike up for any particular track... just in general. I'd be wary of the narrow focus of the XB, and more comfortable with a broader range. Doesnt mean you can set up ANY bike to suit ANY track, or any riding style. Thats just a matter of time, effort and $. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Jerry: My garage, too. Great big Buell Racing banner, California Touring Adventure banner (still the best damn ride I've ever been on and yes, I remember that "backup" road you took us on) and all sorts of other Buell stuff. I have every intention of picking up a black/nuke blue S1W when I decide to stop racing. Or when a huge pile of money falls on my lap, but the former seems to prevent the latter from happening. Vik | ||
| Smokedaddy |
My RR1200 is better, pretty'er, hand made, faster and more flickable than all of your bikes put together and that's a fact. I don't care if we're talking the track, street or dirt ... you loose. -SD:  | ||
| M1combat |
"At the club level, it takes a lot more money to make an XB competetive than it does an SV. That's the point I'm making. " And I've agreed . "Very 'radical'. VERY sensitive to set up. A very SMALL sweet spot." Yeah... but a bike needs to be sorted out to be competitive anyway. The thing about how this "radical" geometry is that it works exceedingly well with the Harley engine and the ZTL brake setup. I would say that this geometry isn't so radical when placed in the package it's in. Put this geometry on a bike with less powerful gyro's and I'm sure it would feel radical. Put a Gixxer front end on... Yeah, you might need a couple degrees of rake too. Why go that route when what you already have is a world class chassis (you CAN'T deny that...). If you do, you're just un-doing countless hours of testing that already made it right. If a person can't adapt to the "radical" XB then maybe they ought to just stick with something a little more conventional... I have no problem with that. Here are the compelling reasons I've heard to go with an SV... Cost Parts availability Vast knowledge-base of people who already run them Those are all good reasons. I suppose it's really come down (for me) to an Apple/PC thing. A Ford/Chevy thing. No problem. PC's and Fords are better too . I still say though... Barring the initial cost of the bike, the same amount of money put into a Buell will net a better bike. On the track, and on the street. |
