| Author | Message | ||
     Norrisperformance |
The gauge I ordered from DynoTune works. Reads very close to the dyno readings @ wot. It is not meant to read at idle or cruise. So @ idle it jumps around, @ cruise it starts getting better, and @ wot you get steady readings. Because of the stock 02 sensor location your only reading one cylinder. But you could set a tfi with no problem. For the money, I give it two thumbs up. And it's very easy to install.  | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Its not giving readings at those times probably due to the ECM not using the O2 at those instances. Or atleast it would stand to reason. Might be a good idea to get a wideband O2 sensor and install it seperate from the stock one and take your readings off it, that is what I plan when I get my replacement header. | ||
| M1combat |
Cool... I'll be ordering one soon. It reports in Lamba yes? Lambda readings get lower for rich yes? | ||
| Norrisperformance |
It reads the 02 sensor only. It's not hooked to anything else. The manufacture intended it to be used a wot. It’s a good cheap way to read a/f values @ wot. @ 70 bucks versus 450.00 plus, for a wide band system, I’m very pleased with it. Only three wires to hook up, power, ground and tie into the sensor wire. And velcro the gauge in place. For tuning in a tfi I think it's an good inexpensive tool, and it's always with you. Just thought I’d give you guy’s my 2 cents | ||
| Norrisperformance |
It reads in millivolts and comes with a conversion chart. | ||
| M1combat |
Gotcha. Thanks. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
It reads the signal coming from the O2 sensor, so if the O2 sensor isn't sampling it isn't sending a signal right? Or do I have the ECM process wrong and the O2 is sampling all the time which should mean you get a constant signal... | ||
| Norrisperformance |
Maybe someone else can explain it better. But all you need to make the gauge work is power and the, or a 02 sensor by itself. | ||
| Norrisperformance |
How Does the Oxygen Sensor Work? This is the only sensor that makes its own voltage. The voltage signal is proportional to the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust. When hot (at least 600. F), the zirconium dioxide element in the sensor's tip produces a voltage signal that varies according to the difference in oxygen content between exhaust and outside air. The higher the concentration of unburned oxygen in the exhaust, the lower the differential across the sensor tip and the lower the sensor's voltage output. The sensor's output ranges from 0.1 volts (lean) to 0.9 volts (rich). A perfectly balanced (stoichiometric) fuel mixture of 14.7:1, gives a reading of around 0.5 volts. Some O2 sensors have three wires and an internal heating element to help the sensor reach operating temperature more quickly. The heater also keeps the sensor from cooling off when the engine is idling. An O2 sensor's normal life span is about 30,000 to 50,000 miles. Sensors can fail prematurely if they become clogged with carbon, or are contaminated by lead from leaded gasoline or solvents from the wrong type of RTV silicone sealer. As the sensor ages, it becomes sluggish. When the signal starts to lag behind changes in the exhaust, or becomes static, the engine experiences driveability problems (loss of power, rough idle, poor fuel mileage, or excessive emissions). Sensor accuracy can also be affected by air leaks in the intake or exhaust manifold, or even a fouled spark plug. A misfiring plug allows unburned oxygen to pass through into the exhaust, causing the O2 sensor to give a false lean indication. Most aftermarket replacement oxygen sensors are of a universal design which means some wire splicing may be necessary during installation. Graphite anti-seize compound should be used on sensor threads unless they are precoated. The rubber boot that fits over the sensor should not be pushed down further than half an inch from the sensor's base. Some vehicles are equipped with a different type of O2 sensor that has a titania rather than zirconia element. Instead of generating its own voltage signal, a titania O2 sensor changes resistance as the air/fuel ratio goes from rich to lean. Instead of a gradual change, it switches from low resistance (less than 1,000 ohms) when the mixture is rich, to high resistance (over 20,000 ohms) when the mixture is lean. The engine computer supplies a base reference voltage of approximately one volt to the titania O2 sensor, and then reads the voltage flowing through the sensor to monitor the air/fuel ratio. When the fuel mixture is rich, resistance in a titania sensor will be low so the voltage signal will be high (close to 1.0 volt). When the fuel mixture is lean, resistance increases and the voltage signal drops down to about 0.1 volt. Compared to the more common zirconia O2 sensors, titania sensors have three advantages: (1) they don't need an air reference (there is no internal venting to the outside atmosphere to plug up); (2) they have a fast warm-up time (about 15 seconds); and (3) they work at lower exhaust temperatures (they won't cool off at idle and they can be located further downstream from the engine or used with turbochargers). You'll find titania O2 sensors in '86 and later Nissan 300ZX and Stanza 4WD wagons, '87 and up Nissan Maxima and Sentra models, and 1986-1/2 and up Nissan D21 trucks. Chrysler also uses them on the Jeep Cherokee and Wrangler (because of the sensor's ability to handle off-road driving through water), and the Eagle Summit. | ||
| Glitch |
The sensor is sending all the time. The ECM just decides when to read the sensor. The A/F gage jumps around because the sample jumps around. The A/F gage reads best at WOT because that's when the sensor is sending the most constant signal. The wide band gage takes readings more like your ECM does, averaging the output as it goes, "smoothing" out the signal, giving you a more "stable" reading. The A/F gage is giving you raw unmolested data, the wide band is giving you an average of the raw data. I hold the right the be completely wrong, but, this is how it was explained to me. I'm used to being wrong, just ask Ann  I agree $70 ain't a bad deal for what your getting, with the added bonus of an easy install. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I didn't realize the O2 sensor made its own voltage, thanks for the enlightenment Mike  | ||
| Glitch |
Yeah what Norris said  Faster on the | ||
| Norrisperformance |
I didn't know myself. Thank Hot Bot, copy and paste. | ||
| Norrisperformance |
Thanks Glitch That's something else I didn't know. | ||
| Hogs |
Norris, Thats great,So have you used this to set up your Tfi and wonder if so how your bike works now, and could one go with that and get it Close enough so a dyno wd. not be needed to get the A/F ratio Close, and I wonder how close the a/f ratio is to the dyno that you used?? We might be on to something here i HOPE..!!! | ||
| Glitch |
 We're all hear to learn...well most of us Most all I've learned about FI has been here on the BadWeB. This is the first bike I've had with FI. My truck has FI, but who cares, it's just for haulin' stuff and to get me through when I'm not able to ride. | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Glitch, Yeah I`m with ya on all that, Always had Carbs, Like the fuel injection, once we get this adjusting the fuel curves taken care of,( air/fuel ratios )of course then it will be the timing ya know advance a little here, retard a little there, Always something to play with... Norris I wonder when say you are driving on the road, reving it up under load say in third gear around 4000,and a slow steady climb up to say 5000 to 6000 or so how good does the meter read, steady or jumping all around?? | ||
| Hogs |
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=air+fuel+ratio&Ntk=KeywordSearch&D DS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp Theres other models here as well, ( this one being an Edelbrock good name anyways ) I`m just wondering if this wd. be a little better for the added 50.00 or so bucks, and instead of taping into the o2 sensor this comes with its own and what IF one installed it just after where the two pipes in the header joined to become one, Wd. that not take a better reading of both cyls. Just a thought??? | ||
| Rr_eater |
O2 sensors and thus the FI system monitoring them are NEVER stable state in operation. A FI engine of anykind, that uses a closed loop/open loop system, cannot, by the reasons of the magic of internal combustion, maintain a PERFECT A/F ratio at all times. What a fuel injection system that runs open/closed loop does, is vary the fuel injection duration and pulse width to AVERAGE a close to stoichometric value during idle and normal riding/cruising by sending the system rich then lean then rich then lean and so on, thus maximizing efficency and mileage during those regimns. When you go open loop, IE WOT, it goes rich to whatever the FI system is set to acheive/maintain (hopefully ). A one wire, standard, O2 sensor, for that matter ANY non-wide band sensor, is NOT LINEAR!!!! That means that while .5 volts is "perfect 14.7 to 1" per say, .6 volts is not just slightly richer, is is actually quite a bit richer, and vice-versa to the lean side. The curve is INCREDIBLY steap compared to a wide band, as shown---V  An oscillating gauge really does not tell you anything, other then if you are lean or rich, which is fine for guys who have throttles with only 2 positions. The only way to truely tune the bike, is to data log real world conditions with a wide band O2 sensor to read the conditions. Remember the Dyno threads, they are only measurements of WOT, that is WHACKED open from 2000RRPM, how many people ONLY ride like that? If nothing else, the gauge above is a great way to verify state of tune while wide open, so you can see a lean condition before it does too much damage, but for true road riding tuning, it really is irrelevant. You can build a 3 wire LED Gauge, that does the same thing but with 10 LED, colored from lean to rich in different colors, I used a few greens for rich, amber for stoich'ish to red for lean, my brother designed/modified a widely available circuit for the gauge, and all the parts would set you back about 7 dollars. Ultimatly guys, you need a wide band sensor, in the system down stream of the collector, or one in each header pipe (ouch $$$$), with a monitor that data-logs while riding, you can download and view the results, and make proper changes accordingly, if you have a means to, IE TFI, PC, MegaSquirt, whatever...... Again, I have only been working on internal combustion engines and their operation for the last 20 some odd years, and Turbine operation and theory in the Navy for the last 10, so I have a small idea of the basics. I have 1 running Megasquirt project in my house, soon to be 2, my brother's megasquirt system, and soon a guy I work with's Blazer on it as well, so I have done MUCH reading on these subjects. But it is just my .03 cents Bruce | ||
| Glitch |
Only 20 years or so? Come back when you have a little more experience | ||
| Diablobrian |
Rr_eater, where would we be able to get the plans for your wide band guage? also I guess any local muffler shop would have the "bungs" for the sensor and be able to weld them in assuming we don't have coated exhausts. | ||
| Hogs |
Hmmm Bruce , Just when I thought we might have a handle on this Cheap, So one needs the wide band sensor to log the whole rpm range wd. be more correct, Yeah your right I`m sure about dynos and WOT does nothing to tell one about normal cruising etc. etc. IS this right or am I totaly confused now,?? | ||
| Glitch |
I think you're right, if you were wrong a dyno operator wouldn't need the sniffer until WOT was reached. Looking at dyno runs you see the AF/ratio from idle all the way through to WOT. That's how I knew I was running 18 in open loop, and 13 in closed loop. It's the best way I could find out how to set up my TFI. | ||
| Hogs |
Rr_eater, Sure wd. be nice to see the plans for this 7.00 buck or so 3 wire 10 LED light gauge ...Sure wd. like to have one of them to mount in my outer Tank Cover...Like ya said it wd. be good for WOT anyways...at least there I wd. know if I was Fat or Lean ! | ||
| Norrisperformance |
It's still the cheapest and fastest install. It looks nice, comes red, green, blue lcd. If you don't have a lot of extra money laying around for a $450.00 PLUS wide band system. Plus find a place to put the big ugly thing. And don't want to have a bung welded in your header. And you want to finally get you tfi set right I think this is the ticket. A low priced low-tech tool, that works. After you set the tfi then you do a base line run to check ½ hour labor to do that. WHY MAKE IT COMPLICATED! Get er done and go to the next mod. | ||
| Hogs |
Norris I wonder when say you are driving on the road, reving it up under load say in third gear around 4000,and a slow steady climb up to say 5000 to 6000 or so how good does the meter read, steady or jumping all around?? Sorry about this repeat to ya..! | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Cool! Thanks for sharing. xbolt12 | ||
| Norrisperformance |
Hogs @ wot it realy doesn't move around that much at all. | ||
| Opto |
The meter will jump around when the ecm is in closed loop and is constantly adjusting the AFR. At WOT (open loop) the ecm runs from it's fuel map without O2 sensor correction, so the meter is steady. You can check this yourself by disconnecting the O2 sensor wire from the ecm, the ecm goes into open loop for ALL riding conditions, and the meter will be quite stable. Using this mode might give you guys with TFI an idea of how/what pots affect the different operating areas. You will get an immediate CE light for the O2 sensor, but it's just a light and a stored code, won't affect anything, just if you take the bike into a dealer for a service tell them it may have a stored O2 code and don't worry about it. If you don't tell them they may try to fix something that ain't broke. When you reconnect the O2 sensor and turn on the ignition the CE light will again be extinguished. | ||
| Tatsu |
Okay I'll bite... 1) How do you hook it up? 2) WOT is that throttle open to the max in 5th gear? I'm trying to figure out what road I can do that on? 3) I too am curious about the setting up the TFI with this unit, so how close are you to the dyno. 4) Could you give a play by play on how you would set up your TFI using this unit? Thanks for being a test mule on this one! |
