| Author | Message | ||
     Jlnance  |
If the government was so concerned with saving lives by legislation, they would ban smoking. Well, they are certainly trying. | ||
| Honu  |
Calling ABATE and MRO'S idiot organizations is a bit harsh don't you think? Isn't the AMA a MRO? There are other issues that they fight for other than Helmet laws. | ||
| Sandblast  |
Aydenxb9 said: "Again, how is the requirement of a helmet an assault on your rights? Your freedom? What if I want to ride without using my headlights at night? The government imposes upon me that I burn my lights at night. I don't like speed limits either, I'd like to run at 100 mph all the time, yet the government has restrictions on how fast I am allowed to go. Is that an imposition on my freedom?" I think you know that the obvious difference is that the activities in your scenario are dangerous to OTHER people, not wearing a helmet is only dangerous to the guy who does not wear a helmet. That should make it a personal choice. If you want to tell other people how to be safe become an MSF instructor, not a law maker. There are too many laws already that dont serve the free culture that our nation was built on. You are way out of line to try to make any other human being do anything he does not want to do- double so because it does not affect you. PS- 99% of the time I dont get on my bike without full leathers, Shoei, and a Dainese back protector. (Message edited by sandblast on December 20, 2004) | ||
| M2me  |
Exactly, Honu. I think the real idiots are riders who never wear a helmet and ride dangerously and recklessly. I wear a quality, full face helmet 99.99% of the time. I buckle my seatbelt 100% of the time. I oppose helmet and seatbelt laws. I will sometimes ride around the block or run up to the store without a helmet. I know that's potentially dangerous. I'm an adult, that's my choice. Should I be ticketed and fined for it? No! Should I be ticketed and fined for showering without a helmet? Why not? Many head injuries occur in the bathroom. Life is dangerous. It's a matter of common sense. I don't support everything ABATE groups fight for but I don't call them idiots either. | ||
| Koz5150  |
Personally I love riding my bike in a T-shirt and jeans on a 70+ summer day. Riding with a helmet just ruins the exeriance for me. The day the government tells me I have to wear a leather jacket, gloves, and helmet on my bike is the day I sell my bike. I would much rather drive a covertible and actually enjoy the weather. | ||
| Ethanr  |
Court -> SOLUTION: I have long said, and stand by it, I wish motorcycle insurance had a "void without helmet and protective clothing" clause. I'd save money. That just about sums up the helmet law here in AZ. Yes, contrary to popular belief, we do have a helmet law (at least according to a friend who's an insurance lawyer). The law in AZ doesn't require you to wear a helmet, but if you're involved in a motorcycle accident and are not wearing one, your insurance company doesn't have to pay *any* medical even if your injuries are not head/neck-related. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Then why pay for insurance??? | ||
| Ingemar  |
Thanks Jmartz. You are too kind. Tramp, With regards to the ambulance changing lawyers, I believe health insurances should have a "void without helmet and protective clothing" clause. The same for those who choose to ride without a seatbelt. Freedom of choice, and the responsibility that comes with it. | ||
| 12bolt  |
Washington doesn't even require insurance for bikes. | ||
| Koz5150 |
I believe health insurances should have a "void without helmet and protective clothing" clause. The same for those who choose to ride without a seatbelt. Freedom of choice, and the responsibility that comes with it. That is fine with me as long as the insurance company spells that out before you buy the policy. Thing is I can't imagine heading out on the open road on a nice sunny day and not being able to feel the wind in my hair or the sun on my back. If you want to go carving the backroads, then wear the gear you need to. Think of it this way. Football players wear gear when playing football, but they take it off to walk around in normal society. Dress for the occasion and act responsibly. | ||
| Benm2 |
The whole idea of no insurance without protection seems like another opportunity for ambulance chasers, insurance companies AND legislators to put the screws down on easily damaged minorities. As pointed out above, smoking kills thousands & is not illegal. Denying medical coverage to smokers sounds good, but what about over-eaters? Should those with appetites for butter & beef jerky be denied coverage for poor choices? Unlikely; but it would certainly set the stage for denial of coverage for "dangerous activities" like motorcycles (with or without helmets, on or off the track), skydiving, rollerblades, bicycles, rock climbing, skiing, bungee jumping, jump roping, etc. Unfortunately the obvious statement regarding freedom of choice & the responsibility that comes with it would be twisted to such an extent that it would become the battle cry of the overprotective suburban parent. To throw LOTS of fuel on the fire, should guns be banned altogether? They are specifically made to produce injury or death. Seems obvious enough that they should be banned. Fortunately though, that right/choice IS protected by the constitution. There ARE natural consequences for choices. They should be deterrent enough. It would be nice, though, if CASH was removed from the equation. You smoke, you get lung cancer, you die. You ride without a helmet, you crash headfirst & die. Neither of these circumstances require Marlboro OR Harley-Davidson to pay your widow millions of dollars! | ||
| Court |
All....in my book good points. It is unfortunate, but I fear there will always be a subset of society that will act as stupid and irresponsibly as they legally can. My PERSONAL take is, I hope my friends ride their motorcycles safely...I like having them around. Court | ||
| Aydenxb9 |
Driving is a privilege, not a right. That is why we have licensing, this is why we have laws governing the conduct under which you may operate a vehicle on public roads. What I see in this debate here, is as with this debate anywhere, is that there is confusion over what is a right, and what is a privilege. Almost everyone in this discussion disagrees with what I stated, cool by me, that is our right. Freedom of speech. Operating a motor vehicle is not a right. Some have stated that not wearing is only an imposition on themselves. Not true. What about those who would have to care for you or miss you if you surcome to an avoidable head injury? What about the cost that is spread among all of us who choose this life in the form of insurance premiums? As I stated in my original post, repealing the helmet law in this state will likely push motorcycle insurance premiums higher and may even force some insurers to quit writing policies in this state. That in turn may limit my freedom by making insurance too expensive for me to afford and I would have to quit riding. Further, it could hurt my livelyhood, being a parts manager in a motorcycle dealership in the form of reduced revenues from lagging helmet sales, and of reduced motorcycle sales because increased insurance rates will take potential buyers out of the market. It's already happening in some segments of the motorcycle industry. Buell dealers in this state are taking it on the chin as well as other dealers who sell sport bikes. Insurance premiums have sky rocketed over the last year driving down sales and forcing many off of their bikes. Have freedoms been taken of others been taken by some who acted irresponsibly? Yes. Would more stringent requirements for operators have prevented the situation? Likely. There is a cause and effect. Our freedom only extends to the tip of our noses (or other body parts, whichever sticks out the furthest  . What you think is an infringement on your freedom may already be an imposition on someone else. | ||
| Rek  |
Just move to Montana. No helmets or insurance are required for motorcycles. Of course on days like today (0 degrees outside) you don't get much riding done. Rob | ||
| Daves |
Ayden, I would be very interested in seeing numbers showing that states with helmet laws have cheaper bike insurance. I don't think you'll find it to be true. On it hurting your livelyhood, I don't think it will. Maybe it will even attract more riders? We avoid states with helmet laws on our vacation as much as we possibly can. That's why we've only been east and south once in the last 5 years and have no desire to go back. I wonder if I'm the only one that plans their vacations around states that have helmet laws? | ||
| Benm2 |
If driving is a privelege, then why do we have to pay for it? | ||
| Ted  |
"The law in AZ doesn't require you to wear a helmet, but if you're involved in a motorcycle accident and are not wearing one, your insurance company doesn't have to pay *any* medical even if your injuries are not head/neck-related." Thats the perfect solution. If organ donors want to ride helmetless ,go ahead ,but dont expect coverage. | ||
| Daves |
So you want anyone that does something that you think is not a good idea to be denied insurance coverage? | ||
| Ted |
well yes. (although its not what I deem not a good idea ,but what the insurance co. does.) I think insurance is supposed to cover unexpected events. If person doesnt take some responsibility for their actions then why should others pay for their carelessness? Even here in "socialist Canada" auto insurance wont cover you if you crash while being impaired and settlements can be reduced if seatbelts arent used. | ||
| Outrider  |
Socialism Sucks! As does most forms of Government intervention in our personal lives. Not to mention, any Government allowing the insurance companies to deny coverage for riders/drivers that do conform to the law in their respective jurisdictions is a crime. I am going to pass on the rest of my anti-socialism rant for now. Granted there are some times when it is good. However, the older you get, the worse it gets especially if you attained your goals in life on your own without the aid of family or government. Think Freedom and take responsibility for your actions! The life you improve may be your own.  | ||
| Daves |
I'll take Freedom also, thank you very much. | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise)  |
I wonder if I'm the only one that plans their vacations around states that have helmet laws? I do the same thing, made it tough when we went to South Carolina. And I refuse to ride into Michigan since its the only state near me that still has a helmet law. I have ridden right to the border then turned around. | ||
| Daves |
Maybe we really are long lost brothers? | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Something I have noticed over the years, any time there is a helmet debate you always have those who are for them trying to portray anyone who chooses otherwise as an idiot or a candidate for a darwin award. The group who chooses to be allowed to have a choice isnt trying to change 1 single thing for those who like to wear helmets all the time, why does the other side wish to force us?? Also I have read statements over the years from folks who will proclaim that they always gear up like the Michelin man even if they are just backing the bike out of the garage, yet invariably when I meet a few of these folks they will at times go lidless. Is it taboo to proclaim that you are pro choice & sometimes actually dare to tempt fate by not wearing a helmet? Just because someone prefers to wear full leathers, a full face helmet, carbon nuckled gloves, etc etc even on a 100+ degree day, does not make them smarter or more tuned in with what can happen on a bike. It simply shows they made a personal choice & thats it. Insurance premiums have sky rocketed over the last year driving down sales and forcing many off of their bikes And it hasnt had 1 damn thing to do with bike accidents. Motorcycle insurance is such a tiny dot to the entire industry that it almost doesnt register. We are .1-.2% of the population. Think about that for a second 1/10th of 1 %. We could all total our bikes & the cost for the insurance industry would be negligible at best. Insurance is nothing more than gambling. They are gambling you wont crash so they can make even more money. Just like the casinos they always win. They want to make more money they simply raise the rates & the government allows it. To claim riders who crash & are in a vegetative state are resonsible for the high rates is asinine. PS...the reasons given by the insurance industry for the high costs have nothing to do with personal injury since many folks opt out of thhat portion anyways since their health insurance will cover them. | ||
| Court |
I'm all for freedom. What I am not for is some squid splattering gray matter on the armco, having no insurance and the extraodinary costs (Vick's dad went to Methodist in Brooklyn for one day of tests and we got a $28,000 bill) of putting them back together being amortized over the insurance premiums of the rest of us. Insurance costs, here in the world capital of the personal injury suit, are astronomical. I think folks should be able to do whatever they want as long as the consequences don't impact others. I still laugh about the photo I took on the Garden State Parkway. Squids, two of them, wheelying between cars in heavy traffic. I had a 35mm body with a 300mm lens. Got a perfect photo of the helmetless rider, turned smiling, with his tag clearly displayed. Cost me five bucks at DMV to get his insurance carrier to whom I sent a glossy 8"x10". I just hated being laughed at. Freedom is not free when your neighbor pays for it. Court | ||
| Koz5150 |
How do you drive and take a picture safely "in heavy traffic"??? (Message edited by koz5150 on December 22, 2004) | ||
| Court |
>>>How do you drive and take a picture safely "in heavy traffic"??? I was in the passenger seat of a Saab convertible with the top down. | ||
| Aesquire  |
% of my riding lidless .02 chances I'll mock the lidless 95% chances I'll defend your right to be stupid/lidless 95% chances the insurance companies will actually lower rates as promised after they get the legislators to pass some law to restrict your freedom to be stupid, & increase their profit margin? Zero, what are you, stupid? | ||
| Spike  |
I personally wear as much helmet as I can afford/justify, but I won't go into the helmet law argument. What I will go into is the useless crap some of these MROs spew into the local magazines. I have read numerous articles stating that helmets were dangerous and increased the chance of injury in a crash. This is a lie based on false statistics that is frequently perpetuated by those who want to push the anti-helmet law agenda. Helmet laws aside, I'm not supporting any group that spreads false information like this. I recently read an article from one of these MROs that referred to any rider who hadn't given money to their MRO as a "welfare rider." Their reasoning was that they worked for biker's rights, so if you ride a motorcycle you have benefitted from their work and owe them money. Again, this is crap. My biggest fear at this point is that people fall for this stuff an actually give money to these groups. You want to protect your right to ride? Try putting baffles in your pipes. You want people to respect you when you ride? Try riding like an adult. Throwing money at a bunch of meatheads who refuse to get the facts straight will not provide a benefit to motorcycling. Mike L. '04 XB12R | ||
| Brucelee |
"The group who chooses to be allowed to have a choice isnt trying to change 1 single thing for those who like to wear helmets all the time, why does the other side wish to force us?? " I will go back to my statement earlier. Are you willing to allow us to pull the plug on you and bill your family for life support costs? Donate your organs? If not, wear the helmet and save us all a lot of pain and money. Just a suggestion.  |
