| Author | Message | ||
     Hkwan |
First off, I'm About 185 lbs with gears and have the 12R. I've set the suspension according to the manual. 1) Would you think the front preload showing 4.5 lines is OK? 2) How do I reduce brake dive, turn compression clockwise another 1/4 turn? I've followed the compression settings (front and rear) pretty much according to the book. The rear preload is @ 4th notch. | ||
| Wyckedflesh  |
1) yes, and that is where I have mine set which is perfect for the way I ride. 2)Not ment as a joke or ridicule, but work on being smoother with the brake lever. I noticed when I would jump from my ZX6 to the XB I was hamfisted with the front brake. Once I got used to the linear feel of the front brake I noticed the front end dive lessened on its own. | ||
| Hkwan |
Thanks Wyckedflesh; I take it that you are about the same weight. I am just applying the same braking method on the XB comparing to the F4i I have. I'm not slamming the brake. I just squeeze the lever smoothly. The XB does dive a lot more than the F4i's (with completely dialed in suspension) Let's say I do apply the brake smoothly, would turning the front compression clockwise a bit work? Right now I'm at about 1.25 out from max. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
What I noticed is that I tended to apply the brakes with the same force I used on the ZX6. The XB front brake once its broke in is a 1 finger deal. In other words it takes less effort for the same stopping power, or atleast that has been my experience with my bike. One other thing, pull all the fittings on the front brake and teflon tape them. Then put it all back together and bleed the hell out of it. You will notice an incredible change in feel. As to adding the 1/4 tunr, go for it, that is what makes the suspension set up for you and not me. You notice more dive then I do, so adjust things to fit your riding style. | ||
| Hkwan |
Yup, 1 finger deal for me as well. About 3800 miles on the bike so basically broken in. Good for you that you don't notice the dive. | ||
| M1combat  |
I weigh about 205 w/ gear and I run the front pre-load at 2 lines and the rear on 6-7. I'm not recommending anyone else do that though. It certainly doesn't dive too much under braking (a problem I had with the factory setup as well), and I find I like the balance mid turn. I've never had it do anything funny after applying power, but I tend to do that conservatively. That's just for my riding style though; again, I'm not recommending anything when it comes to suspension. XB's are indeed very sensitive to it though. I think after the techlusion I'll most likely get a Penske rear and I think they make Ohlins for the front. It should be fun to play with adjustable fast bump settings vs. slow bump. I also run 34.5F/35.5R (on my gage anyway...) wrt tire pressure. The XB is also very sensitive to that. This is with Metzeler Sportec M1's. | ||
| Hkwan |
I've adjusted the suspension according to the aggressive setting that is flowing around. Only thing is that I've adjusted to a weight class that is one level heavier than the one I am in. The bike has way less brake dive now and it is more willing to turn. Correct me if I'm wrong, the factory setting for your weight is a very conservative setting which gives a limo type ride quality. | ||
| M1combat |
I think the factory setup is a good street setup, but I have found that the more agressive settings tend to handle bumps just fine while leaned over so... YMMV. | ||
| Hkwan |
Man, that factory set-up causes the bike now wanting to turn. I have to fight it. Don't know if it is so good since I might have to get out of a dangerous situation in traffic and last thing I want is to fight the bike. Also, the initial turn-in effort is still MUCH(!!) lighter on the F4i than the Buell. Once the Buell is in a corner (leaned over) it performs fine. (Message edited by hkwan on December 15, 2004) (Message edited by hkwan on December 15, 2004) | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Your still on the Dunlops aren't you? Once you get some different tires on there that will change. The stock Dunlop's have a flat profile which is what causes the effort to tune in. | ||
| M1combat |
Ditto. Swap the tires to Metzeler Sportec's or Pirelli Diablo's ASAP. | ||
| Hkwan |
Well, due to commute, the Diablo's on the F4i's is comparably as flat as the Dunlops that are on the Buell. | ||
| M1combat |
Not exactly. They still have a different profile. Stop arguing dammit... put better tires on the damn bike and then tell us we are wrong. Sheesh. We've BEEN through this. We've felt exactly what it is you do now. We know the solution. VERY worn out metzelers feel 500X better than brand new D207's. | ||
| Hkwan |
Not arguing at all. Dare I argue with you expert. Just asking questions to answers I don't know about? Now on the suspension note, I've see a chart showing that in order to get quicker steering, I'd need to add more lines to the preload. I've got from 5.5 to 4 lines trying to see what would happen. That felt better during corner. Still not as quick at all comparing to the F4i. Then I went from 4 to 4.5 according to the chart. The bike fights me noticeably more now. What am I missing. I thought the chart says to add more lines if I want it to steer quicker. I think I will go to 3.5 lines (from 4.5) and see what would happen. Has any of you decrease the lines to the front preload and notice a better steering performance? | ||
| Hkwan |
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| Barkandbite  |
The D207's suck. Listen to M1 and everyone else. Stop trying to tune the bike with crappy tires -- you'll just have to start all over again with whatever you pick. The M1's make the bike a COMPLETELY different animal...there is no way to underscore the severity of this statement. I think you will get more willingness to help if you follow the suggestion everyone is giving you -- give up on the Dunlops. Go with the M1's or Pirelli's. There's only so many ways to polish a turd...in the end, it's still a turd. Dunlop's are turds. They cause the bike to stand up on braking, they cause unpredictability at turn-in and they wear/cup easily. I ride 100+ miles roundtrip to work each day and I still get better mileage/handling with the M1's than I ever did with the DunFlops. Seriously. Chris | ||
| Hkwan |
Got it Chris et al, on the Dunlops. On top of needing to dial in the bike, I would like to understand the suspension settings as well. That's why I've those questions. So I will take it that the tires are causing the bike to fight me when I need to take a corner. Now, giving the same tire - the DunFlops - I'm getting a less willingness to lean with more lines in the front preload, why? | ||
| Blake |
I think the effect dominating the heavy steering with the stock Dunlops is their light weight. The heavier M1's or whatever somehow aid in ease of turning. Just thinking out loud, but pretty sure it isn't the tire's profile causing the steering effects you are seeing. I could be totally wrong of course.  | ||
| Slaughter  |
You might try using a more conventional measure of sag - measure it directly and set your front preload for about 35mm of sag in the front end. Further adjustments should be made with compression and rebound damping - more than by increasing preload. If you're sagging mucy less than 30mm, you might feel squirrely because the front will really rebound. This becomes more noticeable heading into the turns. You brake (front end settles) and then lean just as the front bounces back. Yeah, you could add more rebound damping but you're usually better not having so much preload - though YMMV Put a tye-wrap around one of your fork legs and use it for as an indicator of how much front suspension travel you are using. Under hardest braking, you should probably see the tye-wrap pushed down maybe to within 3/4 to 1 inch from the bottom of the lower tube. (I'll go look to see if that memory is correct) - and if your sag is about right then mess with increasing compression damping before running the preload much higher but I'd measure sag directly, rather than using the rings showing method - especially if you're really trying to dial it in. Higbee's table (above in Hkwan's post) is an excellent tool for getting pretty close but even he admits it's not the final answer. I'm still learning all this stuff while pretending to be a racer. | ||
| M1combat |
I think you are Blake. The taller/more rounded profile of the Sportec carcas in effect gives you a "sharper knife edge" to fall off of. Also, the rear Sportec is taller than the Dunlop so it elevates the rear of the bike a little. If you remember Marcus McBain... He said that he had to add 5-7mm to the rear ride height to get the bike to turn well. I think that this in combination with the sharper profile makes the bike easier to turn in and more stable. I think the problem with the Dunlops is that the rear tire is a more flat profile, while the front is as round as the sportec. I think this would be fine with more rake, which is why the Dunlops work ok on other bikes. They still are absolutely horrid in the rain in any case. HKwan - The less willingness to lean with more lines of preload on the front is due to the fact that spring preload ONLY AFFECTS RIDE HEIGHT. NOT static spring tension. You are in effect dropping the forks through the tripples which increases rake and makes the bike slightly less responsive at turn in and more "stable" mid corner. The XB is already VERY stable mid corner, so you don't need any more of that. I recommend the stock setup until you change tires. Then mess with it. | ||
| Slaughter |
Forgot to check... Do you still have the stock fork springs??? The stockers are supposedly softer at the beginning of their travel. The following was lifted from one of the many sportbike boards. I copied and pasted it into my track book for reference. Each point can be argued but as a general reference, it aint too bad: Problem: Front wheel chatters entering a corner, the problem disappearing as soon as you let the brakes off or when power is applied. The fork is working too low in its travel. Solution(s): Apply more preload Change to a harder spring Reduce oil level if a tie wrap on the fork tube indicates a lot of stroke is unused Check fork friction (stiction) Rear ride height is too high - possibly too much spring preload. Reduce ride height. Problem: Front wheel skips during heavy braking Forks are bottoming out Solution(s): Increase spring stiffness Lower oil level if a lot of stroke remains Problem: Front end feels vague mid corner Poor damping control Solution(s): Insufficient rebound damping - increase If suspension feels harsh it may be too much rebound or compression damping - reduce Problem: Front end loses grip exiting corners Insufficent spring compliance or damping control Solution(s): Increase front rebound damping Reduce front spring preload Increase rear compression damping or spring rate Unfortunately the rear shock set-up affects the behaviour of the front end in some circumstances, so there is often no easy answer to a particular handling problem. The most important thing to remember is never change more than one thing at a time .... Always test the bike after any change in the setup to see what affect it has. And make sure you note down your original settings, so if it all goes haywire you can start again from scratch. Preload: Preload controls ride height. It does not make the suspension harder or softer. What it does do though is alter the angle of the steering, which affects turning speed, and it also changes the weight distribution, which can affect front/rear grip. Front Preload: Increase it to put more weight on rear to get better rear traction, or stop the bike diving on the brakes. Too much will cause slow turning and possible front lock ups on braking. Decrease it to get more feel from front tyre in corner. Puts more weight on front which increases front traction. Too little will cause dive bombing. Rear Preload: Increase it to quicken the steering. Too much will cause loss of traction as bike skips over dips in road, and can make the bike generally unstable. Decrease it to improve stability. Too little and the bike will be slower turning and it will squat when you accelerate, leading to tank slappers. Compression damping: This affects the speed at which the shock can compress, under accelerating (rear) or braking (front), and also when riding over bumps. High speed damping usually operated by blowing the shim stack, allowing quick release of oil to compensate for a sudden shock like a pot-hole. Low speed damping controlled by the shims, allowing very subtle oil flow according to suspension loads. Front Compression: Increasing will remove some of the dive under heavy braking. Also it will increase the feedback and soak up small bumps better. Too much will cause instability, a rough ride, and it will reduce the grip available at the front. Decreasing will smooth the ride. Too little will cause excessive front tyre loading and can have the bike standing up on the brakes mid corner. Rear Compression: Increase to make the bike run true and hold a line around a corner. Too much and the bike could launch you into space after a bump, and the rear tyre will lose traction on undulations. Decrease compression to smoothen the ride. Too little will allow the bike to squat under power and run wide in corners. Rebound damping: This affects the speed at which a shock rebounds, which allows the wheel to return to the ground after hitting a bump. Front Rebound: Increase the damping to help the bike hold a line, and help front stability. Too much will gradually jack the front down as each bump compresses the front further and further. Also it will cause loss of feel and a tendency for the front to wash-out. Decrease to help the front react to bumps, and to keep it in contact with the tarmac. Too little will decrease front stability. Rear Rebound: Increasing will help to stop the rear bouncing around, and the front "pushing" in corners. To much will cause front end shake and overwork the rear tyre. Decreasing will smoothen the ride on a bumpy road, and decrease the rears tendency to step out on a bumpy corner. Too little rebound will cause running wide on corners. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Hkwan: Per your chart post: 1)You said initially that you had your REAR preload at the 4th spot. PEr the first line under "Quicker steering" adjust that to the 5th spot. 2) You said you went from 5.5 lines showing to 4 lines showing. Then went from 4 to 4.5. But did you also adjust or make an adjustment to the compression or rebound settings? If you follow the directions for the chart then put everything back, front and rear to your weight on the chart. Before you make any additional adjustments check your tire pressure and make certain its at 36/38 per the specs in the book. Take that for a ride and evaluate. Adjust the REAR preload up one notch, from 5th to 6th. Take that for a ride. Not enough, THEN adjust FRONT preload down by turning in to a full line IE: go from 4.5 showing to 5 showing. Take that for a ride. Not enough, THEN increase REAR compression 1/4 to 1/2 a turn so instead of being 1 full turn out to 1 1/4-1 1/2 a turn out. Basically what you need to do is follow what the chart says. Once you have gone through the chart and still not found what you want, then you go back to the top of the list and go through it again 1 adjustment at a time. You own comments have you only making a partial adjustment without taking all the instructions in to mind. All the different parts of the adjustments will have an affect, that is why you make 1 change at a time and move through the method as outlined in the chart. So starting over from scratch FRONT: Preload 4.5 Compr 1.5 Rebound 1.5 REAR: Preload 5.0 Compr 1.0 Rebound 1.0 | ||
| Hkwan |
On the tire - when I do go and change out the DunFlops, do I still stick with 36/38psi? I liked the Front preload on 4 lots better than when it was @ 5.5. Definitely less brake dive and more willingness to turn. When I went to 4.5 from 4, that's when the bike wants to fight me again when I want to turn - meaning running wide. I did adjusted the compression as well. I adjusted it to be 1.25, front and back. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
But are you still at the 4th position on the REAR preload or did you bump it up to the 5th which is what the chart recommends as a base, then adjust it up to the 6th if that wasn't enough? See, by haveing the REAR at the 4th position, the back is sagging and the front is lifting, taking weight off the front end. You want it to go the other way. As to the tires, I prefered to run them at 36/38 for the different tires I have run for street riding. The track was a different story. | ||
| Hkwan |
Yup, the rear preload has been bumped up to 5th. Thank you all for the help so far! | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Ok so since the 5th is the Base per the chart, the first thing to do IF the base settings aren't quick enough is to move that rear preload up to the 6th position before you adjust any of the front settings. | ||
| Hkwan |
Got it. Will follow the one-at-a-time method. Thank you once again! Oh, another thing - putting the rear preload at 6th slot kinda worries me. Not that it worries me it is at that setting per sa, but the fact that it is very near maxing out the system concerns me. I mean, if I have to be on the 6th slot, what are people who are over 220 lbs going to do? (Message edited by hkwan on December 15, 2004) | ||
| M1combat |
I'm 205 and I run on seven. | ||
| Hkwan |
M1, do you have pretty much everything else set up per the chart for your weight besides the rear preload? | ||
| Spatten1 |
Good to know the Dunlops don't work well on the Buells, I was about to buy a new set. I'll go with Chris's advice as well. They are great tires on most sport bikes. I left plenty of black marks heading up Palomar Mt. with my rear tire and never came close to high siding, and most people I used to ride with loved them too. That was, of course, in my days before having children when a 150 hp bike seemed to make sense. |
