| Author | Message | ||
     T9r |
Have you noticed when shopping for various auto and cycle parts, sliders that everyone seems to be boasting their product using a catch phrase "aircraft quality" when talking specifically about aluminum products. I want to know what is "aircraft quality" and how do you quantify it??? Tell me how you concluded it to be aircraft quality? Is "aircraft quality" any better than "railroad quality", or say "seacraft quality". If they are talking about how it's machined, is it just that it has a nice fit and finish, then wouldn't I want "german quality"? It just seems to tack on about 20% more to the cost of the item when someone attaches the phrase "aircraft quality". Last time I checked, aircrafts crash, burn, melt and all that is left is the little black box. Just needed something to rant on about, when looking for sliders for bikes. | ||
| Dasbuell |
How many train or car crashes are there a year? How many air craft crash a year? The number of aircraft down per traveled mile is nothing compared to the other. When something breaks on a car or train... you stop and have someone come and fix it. When something breaks on an aircraft... you don't pull into the nearest cloud and call AAA. The damn things fall out of the sky... people die. SO... the specifications in all aspects from metallurgy, to machining tolerances, to fit and finish, and much more has quality control checks and testing... to ensure it is as good as it can be. So... will aircraft sliders keep you from crashing because they are of those claimed specs... NO. What that tells me is that if I take the right slider and the left slider and look at them side by side... they are a near perfect match in fit, size, & finish. Take a precision measuring device to them both... and they should be extremely uniform in size. So what does that mean to a Bueller? That means the person who made them has VERY high standards in the manufacturing of that item. On parts such as brakes that are "aircraft quality"... they are made to specs like aircraft... and failure of that item due to any manufacturing and materials will be head and shoulders above anything of standard quality for ground based vehicles. I hope this helps. | ||
| Uwgriz |
I only see "aircraft quality" attached to aluminum of the T6061 variety which is the alloy most commonly used in aircraft. It's just a marketing thing (especially since most of what you'll find for billet parts is 6061 for a number of reasons, none of which has anything to do with aircraft). | ||
| T9r |
I'd of said it was only to T6061 until I typed in "aircraft quality" into a search engine and found, steel, circuit breakers, and wood. I found this interesting link, commenting on the Myth that "aircraft quality" fasteners are better. http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=9713 Almost purely a marketing ploy, I'd rather see ISO certified~ Maybe that is next. | ||
| Midknyte |
Last time I checked, aircrafts crash, burn, melt and all that is left is the little black box. Black Box Quality? | ||
| Bomber |
no such thing as a generally agreed upon meaning for "aircraft quality" -- like the man sez, marketing speak -- it's like surgical steel -- no such thing I've seen some componants on private and gubmint aircraft I would want on my porch, much less on my bike | ||
| Racertroy |
For what it's worth, ISO certification can be a ploy as well, as the certification requires only that you document your process and follow that documented process...there is nothing in ISO that says you must document a good process...from a manufacturing quality assurance stand point, some of the automotive standards (QS, TS, etc) make an attempt to require design reviews and quality checks as minimum conditions to design/supply product cradle to grave under their certifications...just my two cents... As far as air-craft quality, i'd agree, that the moniker can be used as a marketing ploy...in theory, air-craft quality would allude to an extensive design review where material selection and product performance were evaluated against manufacturability....having said that...i suppose it would be a possible scenario where a machine shop of turbine blades (for example) may also have an owner whose interested in xb's and would like to machine parts using the same material specifications, process controls and quality acceptance criteria required of his/her aerospace customers in the manufacture of slider pucks (another arbitrary example, but you'll see my point)...however, there is a cost to maintain such checks and balances...and most likely, add-on aftermarket components don't fit the criteria of maintaining such high standards...life and limb components (motor, braking, chassis) yes...license plate brackets or slider pucks...well...not so much. Unfortunately, it's not easy for the consumer to evaluate what design/manufacturing/quality criteria/processes are used to make a specific component from a particular manufacturer...anyway....it's hard to ever know...hence, easy to market most anything as 'aircraft quality'...incidentally, some players in the aerospace industry work with the NIST to do some 'self-regulation' activity for aircraft component manufacture and design...a brief topical outline can be found at the following site: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/aerospace.htm Usually, individual companies have specific standards for specific products; aircraft or otherwise...hard to put a blanket statement out there to cover all aircraft (e.g. commuter, commercial, military, etc) Anyway, unless you have a technical background or are comfortable taking your life into your own hands...Best bet is to buy from reliable, reputable motorcycle industry sources...you're dealership or raceshop should be able to tell you what works and what doesn't work...hope this helps... ciao, --ts | ||
| Glitch |
Racertroy stole my thunder. ISO is only as good as those that use it. All it means is you're doing it the same way every time. So if you're doing it wrong every time and document it, you could be ISO certified. | ||
| Bomber |
btw, my previous posting should not be taken as a poke in the eye to anyone on the board that advertises "aircraft quality" parts (disclaimer) I would certainly feel free to ask any particular seller what constitutes said quality in their products, however | ||
| Uwgriz |
The most common way I see it written is "made from aircraft quality aluminum." Sometimes I see "grade" in place of "quality." Regardless, neither says anything about the quality of the part, just what it's made out of. The benefits of T6061 are is decent strength for low dollars, machinability and weldability. All of these reasons make it a good choice for many applications, including building aircraft. So if you want to sound high-tech, say "aircraft quality" or if you want to be honest, say "the same stuff that any metal shop has an abundance of in their stock, that I can buy cheap, machine and weld easily and that happens to get put into an airplane or two." (Message edited by uwgriz on November 17, 2004) (Message edited by uwgriz on November 17, 2004) | ||
| Blake |
I think aircraft or aerospace quality generally implies the material is commonly used in aircraft and aerospace vehicles. If you want a real high grade spec, it would say something like MIL Spec such and such. Aircraft quality does not signify any class of fasteners that I know. I can tell you that structural fasteners used on aircraft are in no way inferior. The explanation of that website posted by T9r is bullshit marketing in and of itself. There is no such thing as an "aircraft" grade of fastener. | ||
| Blake |
6061-T6 is cheap? Not compared to 5052-O. 6061-T6 is a high strength heat-treated aluminum alloy that is corrosion resistant. It ain't cheap, and it deserves special mention to distinguish it from cheaper inferior non-heat treated aluminum alloys. The "-T6" signifies that it is heat treated to a specified strength/hardness. | ||
| Uwgriz |
True, but 5052 doesn't allow for the option of heat treating so it's about as low dollar as you can get away with if you want that flexibility. Good point on the -T6, force of habit when typing, I guess (everything we ever get here is heat treated). | ||
| Lord_deathscyte |
AS prof. always say about ISO certification. just because you can make an ISO certified cement life jacket does not mean it is better than a normal life jacket. | ||
| Starter |
Pity their food ain;t ISO certified. | ||
| Blake |
5052 aluminum alloy cannot be tempered through heat treatment, but it is available in various tempers of strain hardening up to 5052-H39. | ||
| Chainsaw |
...just wanted to see if the naughty word detector would let me use the word bullshit too  | ||
| Blake |
Hey man, bullshit is one of the staples of this board. Ya gotta learn to like it.  | ||
| Captainkirk |
Speaking from experience, most of the small aircraft you see flying overhead are constructed primarily of 2024T3 aluminum either .032 or .040 thick and riveted together. "Aircraft Quality" aluminum has become just another buzzword in the arsenal of salesmanship. In other words, ignore it. It's a cheap sales ploy. | ||
| Xbolt12 |
What they mean is aircraft quality aluminum alloy. ie: 6061 7075, or another heat treated aluminum which is much stronger than plain aluminum. xbolt12 | ||
| Racertroy |
did someone say plane aluminum? | ||
| Blake |
<groan> No I'm sorry. Make that a <double groan>. C. Kirk, It's not a cheap sales ploy. It is an accurate and meaningful description of the aluminum alloy. Yes it puts a positive spin on the item. What do you want, some kind of dry objective description? LOL. Not likely. | ||
| Uwgriz |
Blake, I've never looked into it, how's the cost of 5052 tempered to a similar strenght of 6061 and does that impact its machine/weldability? | ||
| Rick_a |
All I know, is that an "aircraft quality" shift arm was so strong it severely bent the steel shaft it was attached to in a mishap. In that case, it was too good  | ||
| Firebolt1203 |
6061-T6 aluminum is something like 10 times stronger than steel by weight. But then you have to think about the size of a pound of steel and a pound of aluminum | ||
| Blake  |
UW, I don't know the costs either, but you tend to get what you pay for. Even tempered the 5052 falls well short of 6061-T6 with 5052-H34 providing a yield strength of 26 KSI. Of course welding renders ineffectual any tempering in areas local to the weld, no matter the material or alloy. I don't know much about the effect on machinability either. The only materials I ever heard serious complaints about as to their machinability were Ti 6AL-4V and 17-4 PH stainless steel. Firebolt1203, Not ten times, close to three times stronger than mild steel by weight. Keep in mind that there are lots of steel alloys and tempers too, so to be accurate, we would also specify what alloy and temper of steel we are comparing to the 6061-T6. Conventional A36 structural steel has a guaranteed minimum yield strength of 36,000 PSI. The guaranteed minimum yield strength of 6061-T6 aluminum alloy is 35,000 PSI. Now 7075-T6 aluminum alloy is truly something to behold with a yield strength in excess of 70,000 PSI. High grade aluminum fasteners of made of such an alloy. Steel is roughly three times as dense as aluminum; it is also three times as stiff. There exist exotic alloys and forms of steel that approach and even exceed 300,000 psi yield strength. The material comprising a typical grade-8 bolt has a yield strength of of 130,000 PSI. Materials science is interesting stuff. Hard to beat carbon fiber reinforced plastics (CFRP) for strength to weight performance. But CFRP have other limitations. |
