| Author | Message | ||
     Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Anytime you wanna fly that prehistoric dinosaur of a Duc over here & "teach" me how to turn, im more than willing to show you the fast way thru the corners. Softened out...lol thats funny. | ||
| Aesquire |
Ok, I gotta jump in here. If you have the spinning wheel, ( gyro ) hop in a car, and have yourself driven down the road, It will still be hard to turn. The Gyro compass's used in space craft, planes & submarines don't care how fast you go, just if you turn. What you perceive, I think, is that the leverage you feel you can exert upon the spinning wheel ( in contact with the ground, on a bike ) goes up with speed, faster then the Gyro forces do. Rocket's right that a bike on rollers will fall down, without a rider to correct it. It sure is true with my bicycle! That's because the rollers do not interact with the bike like the road does. After the bike hits the ground though, you will see some neat precess action as the bike flops around. I did take my Cyclone out & "experimented" with counter steering. I can rub one shoe, then the other, ( sitting with toes out a bit ) on a 2 lane street, while my body remains more or less upright w/respect to the bike @ 40 mph. The results matched my preconceived notions, and that Code guy's too. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
No funnier than taking the p**s out of ancient relatives from a place that was discovered only 500 yrs ago, now that's irony!  | ||
| Biknut |
huh? | ||
| Rocketman |
Funny but it's a fact. Yamaha softened the suspension, made the seating position more upright and moved the pegs forward and down for more rider comfort. They did this to appeal to riders who want to go longer distances and use the R1 as a sports tourer. Sorry to disappoint you, but you bought a fast armchair. As for your cornering skills, anyone can ride an R1 fast. Come back when you learn to ride a real motorcycle fast. Rocket | ||
| Court |
Copernicus.....shut off those lights and go to bed sun! | ||
| Rocketman |
What you perceive, I think, is that the leverage you feel you can exert upon the spinning wheel ( in contact with the ground, on a bike ) goes up with speed, faster then the Gyro forces do. Sorry, I should have said in contact with the ground, which is not the same as the gyro spinning of its own free will whilst moving forward. I assumed you understood my meaning seeing as we're talking about the wheels of a motorcycle. Ah well, at least it shows someone's paying attention. Rocket | ||
| Crusty |
I didn't investigate too closely, but I bet those flat earthers think the space program is a hoax, too. And a flight around the earth in a 747 really isn'r around the earth, now is it? I am amazed at the things that some people believe. | ||
| Aesquire |
"anyone can ride an R1 fast" Sounds like Dyna picked a good bike. Rocket, the bike wheel with handles is a standard Physics demo. You hold the spinning wheel while on a swivel chair. When you try to turn( roll or yaw ) the wheel, you get torqued on the chair. The only thing we seem to disagree on is the input direction on initial turn in. As for the rest, I'm listening. As far as the Earth being flat...I play Halo. (Message edited by aesquire on October 27, 2004) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
But the Earth IS flat, Terry Pratchett says so, & I believe him.  | ||
| Paulinoz |
. (Message edited by PaulinOz on October 28, 2004) | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
So which is it? Flat or round? Rocket never answered. | ||
| M1combat |
Come on guys... were trying to discuss some technical issues here. Please don't start a flame war. If you don't like the thread, don't participate. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular... but some of you are known for your ability AND desire to stir up the ••••... | ||
| Blake |
Those doubting the extremely hindering effects of wheel gyroscopic action have never tried to get a bike to turn aggressively at high speeds. If you doubt how terribly difficult the gyro action of the wheels makes turning a bike at high speed, please ask Paul (Snail) about his experience trying to keep his gixer upright at 180 mph. Donald (M1), Like I said, there are other variables to consider, gravity and gyroscopic forces of the wheels. At higher speeds the bike will translate laterally a lot more before achieving the desired lean. I'm just not sure that the relative lateral motion of the seat upon countersteering is something we can generalize so simply. Interesting stuff. | ||
| M1combat |
Good point I suppose... In case you were wondering I've only tried it at about 40. I don't really think I want to try at 100 or beyond. Maybe I could work up to it  ... | ||
| Crw |
"And a flight around the earth in a 747 really isn't around the earth, now is it?" Nope, they just fly in a "great circle"!  Much the same as this thread. | ||
| Rocketman |
Dyna, rather than concern yourself with round balls floating in space, or flat plates for that matter, you'd be better served trying to find a corner or two in Wisconsin. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Those doubting the extremely hindering effects of wheel gyroscopic action have never tried to get a bike to turn aggressively at high speeds. Obviously you've never ridden a 748/749/916/996/998/999. They thrive doing just that, turning aggressively at high speed. The choice of words you use to describe gyro forces coming from a motorcycles wheels is a great example of how you seek to taint the views of people reading the board. Your psychology doesn't work on me. 'doubting' 'extremely' 'hindering' 'action' 'never' 'aggressively' 'doubt' 'terribly' 'difficult' 'trying' 'upright' '180 mph' That's some list for a couple of short paragraphs. Man, I'm amazed a motorcycle can actually overcome those incredible forces and turn at all. More so when you look at the length of that piddly hollow tube the manufacturers give us to do it with. Shame on them. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
The only thing we seem to disagree on is the input direction on initial turn in. As for the rest, I'm listening. No need to listen. Ride your bike in a straight line then turn the bars to the right and the bike will turn to the right. If it doesn't my arse is a citrus fruit! Rocket | ||
| Sandblast |
I tried it just now, it turned left when I turned the bars right. Please dont be mad at me Rocket. And I hope your Arse is not really fruity.  | ||
| M1combat |
Evidently it is... | ||
| Evaddave |
So, Rocket, I tried it your way and turned my bike by pulling on the outside bar. I was really shaky, but that's something I could fix with some practice. I'm curious at what point you define initiating the turn. Is it at the very first input to the bars, regardless of direction, or is it when the bike actually begins to change direction? (or some other time?) There might be only a few milliseconds between the two points in time, but your answer may determine whether another thread gets opened to discuss what kind of citrus fruit you're talking about. | ||
| Ingemar |
I'd say that if you steer left without doing anything else, it will go left. That's why it falls over to the right side. Do nothing at this point and you will be flat on the tarmac, your head pointing in the way you should have gone. The reason we go right after doing that is because we then correct and steer into the curve at the right lean angle. Blake's initial graph he posted shows that. The only purpose of the initial steer into the wrong direction is to get the bike to lean (right?). I just wonder, Rocket. If you INITIALLY do not steer to the wrong side, HOW do you get to lean the bike into the curve? It would mean a HELL of a wrestle, because the only other way I know of is shifting weight. And how do you straighten her back up? Wrestling again or do you steer further into the curve? And with that fruity bum of yours, you must have a lot of people wanting to kiss it  . | ||
| Outrider |
Rocket...when you say turn the bars to the right to make the bike initiate a turn right, do you mean turn the front wheel so that it points to the right? Just thought I would ask? I went away for a while and am trying to catch up on your concept. FYI, if you mean point the front wheel in the direction you want to go from initiation through completion of the turn at speed, I do that quite a bit when riding on slippery surfaces either on or off road where lean angles can be hazardous to my health. However, I compensate by either slightly skidding and/or spinning the rear wheel. In essence, I am steering with the rear wheel and pointing the front where I want to go. On solid riding surfaces I initiate a turn with countersteering and play it by ear whether I complete the turn via countersteering or rear wheel steering. It all depends on the radius of the turn, surface conditions and where I want/have to go with the bike. Inducing a controlled slide with the rear brake is easy on almost any bike, but the torque of a V-Twin or a big bore single makes the spinning maneuver much easier to control with the throttle. Smoothness in both braking and power delivery are what makes it work along with knowing when and where to utilize your weight on the bike. If anyone is interested in working on this technique, unless you can find a road racing school that teaches it, I suggest you contact Henrik and get the name of the dirt track school he went to or just get yourself a cheap dirt bike and a good motocross type book and go play in the crud until you get it perfected before you consider trying it with your street bike. Why not practice with your good bike on the street? Because you risk freaking out and/or crashing in the learning process. It's physically and financially better to learn on the dirt. That is how I learned the techniques. Mentors, books and dirt bikes on scrambles tracks, trails, mountains and deserts all with lots of get offs that didn't hurt either me or my bike (much). More fun than you can imagine and it will really improve your street riding skills. There are other benefits as well. If you learn how to ride a berm, you won't freak out when sliding or running wide towards a curb and will know how to use it to your best advantage. Also, once you learn how to handle small jumps, drop offs, sudden rises, washouts, ruts, etc., you are much better prepared to ride it out if you overcook a turn and end up going off the road either by chance or by choice. In other words, you can minimize your risk of low sides, high sides and hitting another vehicle head on by merit of knowing how to handle a bike instinctively in adverse conditions and having acquired the ability to make instant decisions when you find yourself in a life threatening situation. Better to be prepared than panic if you get yourself in over your head as most of us seem to do on occasion for whatever reasons. Sorry about getting carried away with the subject, but acquiring these skills has saved my bacon a number of times. The most recent on was about a month ago when my bike started to low side in a decreasing radius right hander into the path of an oncoming dump truck. My only way out was to flip the bike left with radical countersteering, goose it and ride it out on the shoulder on the other side of the road. Had I done anything else, I would have slid right under the truck and that was all because I tried to hold off replacing my tires until spring. Heck, I wasn't speeding as I was stuck in traffic. I just found the slick spot and lost traction. Hey Rocket...I certainly hope your arse doesn't turn into a citrus fruit. My god man, it could ferment and wipe out all of Northern Europe.  | ||
| Biknut |
ingemar's got it right. if you ride straight down the road and turn the handle bars left, and that's all you do, you will fall over to the right. don't ask me how i know. | ||
| Biknut |
on the other hand, if before you hit the ground you turn the handlebars right, you will be leaning into a right turn. that's what counter steering is. | ||
| Biknut |
right or wrong my ••• is not fruity. | ||
| Rocketman |
Seems like some of the non believers are tripping over themselves today. If you turn the bars left into a left radius, that is the INITIAL input to the bars. Point the bars in the direction you wish to go in other words - something I've told you all along. What you do next to keep the bike turning left is not the first thing you do, seeing as you've already done that, which was turn left to go left, or right to go right. At the point where the bikes leaning over and heading through the corner, you'll hardly ever turn the bars so as the front wheel is actually pointing in the opposite direction of the corner. That's a pretty extreme input for allowing progress through one corner. The self evident (if there) or rider induced counter steer is seldom more than just a tweak on the bars in the opposite direction to the way you are steering anyway, but for want of a better word, 'normal' riding will seldom see the front wheel actually turn away from the direction of the corner. In other words, the front wheel will continue to point in the direction of the corner, left to go left and right to go right, no matter the counter steer. All counter steer does is affect the degree the wheel is turned IN. Please, don't confuse this with sliding the rear around in the King Kenny manner. A riding style in which one will clearly see the front wheel pointing out or away from the direction of the corner. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
I don't see it that way Rocket. Most professionals don't see it that way either. The lists of credentials for Kiethe Code and Lee parks were posted earlier in the thread so there's no reason to re-hash them. Both of them describe the first input to the bar (the one to the outside of the corner that initiates lean) a countersteering input. It also affects the degree that the wheel is turned in during mid-corner. | ||
| Biknut |
rocketman, i agree with what you are saying except what you call the INITIAL input. in your example of a left radius, the first very small movement of the bars would be to the right. then of course you would have to turn the bars left to go left, but as you ark through the turn you would have to steer your way through. especially if you ride like i do. |
