| Author | Message | ||
     Simond |
So.... does that mean that all are agreed that counter steering initiates lean but turning the bars in the direction of the corner steers? On the push pull argument Rocket.... how do you think this guy gets around right handers?   | ||
| M1combat |
Well, sort of. Counter steering is a verb and a noun. Counter steering is the act taken to keep pressure applied opposite the direction the bars want to turn... It is also what you do to initiate lean. You'll notice that both are conveniently in the opposite direction of the intended corner. Hence the name countersteer. Given to both things. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I want to know what he's doing with his left hand! On second thoughts, perhaps I don't.  | ||
| Mikej |
I don't think he has a left hand anymore. And I don't think I'd wager against him in a race either. | ||
| Henrik |
I cannot push the inside bar on my 916 I was having similar issues on the SV (set up with clip-ons). I would push on the inside bar to turn, but wouldn't get as much steering input as I'd like. I realized (as Rocket wrote earlier), that I was pushing *down* as well as forward at a 45° angle. Basically making 50% of my pushing effort useless. So instead I began to hold on more with my legs, so I could take some pressure off my hands, and at the same time leaned my upper body forward while bending my elbows. In that body position, my forearm is about parallel to the ground, and a forward push on the bars works well as seen here;  That picture is immediately after the turn in. My outside elbow is against the tank, and I can assist the turn-in by pulling on the outside bar. My primary, initial steering effort at turn-in, however, is a push on the inside bar. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
there was a fella at BRAG's Dragon adventure a couple of years ago that rode without benefit of his left arm -- something tells me he, too, was pushing with his right from time to time -- gent was very fast, very controled, and taught me alot, and not just about riding either | ||
| Buellkowski |
We had to run a one-handed (right hand) slalom at last year's MSC Experienced Rider course. Dicey at first, but we all got the hang of it. | ||
| Glitch |
There are times when my left can't do much more than the clutch. Neuronoma's no fun. Anyway, I use my right to steer with, it's gotten to be habit now. Push to go right, pull to go left. It's still what I call counter steering. Ann don't like mud | ||
| Keith |
Blake said "Of course... I was correct and Keith was obstinate." I never said you were right! Sac! Keith  | ||
| Simond |
Henrik, that is exactly the problem I had when I first ventured on to the track. I was supporting my upper body weight on my arms. I still have to think about it but bending my arms so that the forearm is parallel with the tank allows me to get turned so much quicker. Feels bloody silly on the road though...! | ||
| Ingemar |
So, back to chicanes  If I understand correctly you would generally sacrifice some speed through the first curve, to position yourself correctly for a maximum speed through the second (note that I said generally). Now, does this wisdom with the neccesary experience allow you to practice this technique on roads you don't know, or do you need to ride something so many times before you get it right? And I'm not talking about Rossi, he needs to practice the track to get his times right. I'm talking about a reasonable pace on backroads, like impressive street riding, if I can call it that. Anyone? | ||
| Bomber |
Ingemar well, I don't see how it could apply to a raod you have never ridden (another way of saying you don't know it) -- on the street, you have to be in a position to be able to react to almost anything at almost any time there are sometimes clues about what a road will do (power/telephone line poles generally follow the road, and can give you a hint about what direction an unseen cuvre may take), gaps in the vegatation is also a useful clue as to what the road is doing ahead, but you've got to be prepared to alter your line or stop altogether on the road -- I would like to be able to say I follow this philosophy all the time, but, alas, I cannot getting it "right" on the road is very different than getting it "right" on the track on the road, I try to use as late an apex as possible -- this gives me the greatest visability as to what's going on ahead N.B. on a truly blind corner, my "late apex" should allow me room to escape a car crossing the double yellow line into my lane at anytime in the corner end of sermonette -- I don't mean to sound preachy | ||
| M1combat |
"If I understand correctly you would generally sacrifice some speed through the first curve, to position yourself correctly for a maximum speed through the second (note that I said generally). " You mostly do... You are only going for maximum speed "through" the second if the straight afterwords is fairly short. If it's a longer straight, maximum exit speed is the goal. You would want to sacrifice a little speed in the early part of the corner to get a better (straighter) line coming out of the corner. Again, if on a track and there's someone behind you, you need to defend your position. This is why the pace slows down when bikes are fighting for position. As far as on the road... SAFETY is FAR more important than speed. NEVER cross the double yellow with your head. Aside from that, it's motly the same, it's just that you need to make sure you are safe from oncoming traffic and make sure you are watching for any cars that want to pull out or a myriad of other things that can kill you. Also, I try to never ride a fast pace on roads that I don't know well. You never know when you might hit a patch of dirt. That can ruin your day. On my favorite mountain road, there is one corner that ALWAYS has a little bit of dirt and a couple small rocks on it. ALWAYS. If I want to make a real run on that road, I ride it at a fairly spirited pace first to check out the road. If it's all good, I pick up the pace. Safety is the number one concern. That said... There are two types of riders... Those that have gone down and those that will. It's a fact. It will happen exactly when you least expect it, so just expect it all the time. "Now, does this wisdom with the neccesary experience allow you to practice this technique on roads you don't know, or do you need to ride something so many times before you get it right? " Well, you need to practice a corner to get it right, but after proper practice you will be able to pick a more proper line right away with no experience on a particular corner. It starts to become a natural thing. I think that track days are the best training for this and especially if you can make it to many different tracks. Like Bomber said though, you absolutely must leave enough margin in your speed to adjust for something. Just about the only thing I don't leave enough margin for is a tree laying completely across a road around a blind turn. Hopefully that never happens to me again  . | ||
| Keith |
On the way home from work this afternoon, I pulled into my church parking lot to experiment with steering. What I found with my XB (I'm sure other bikes could be different according to rake and trail) is that at approximately 10 mph and below, I can turn the handlebars in the direction I wanted to go. I did the best I could at not leaning into the turn. At anything much above 10 mph, I had to push on the hand grip in the direction that I wanted to turn (counter steer) to make anything happen. Try this little experiment and let me know what your results are... Keith  | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Should be the same. You can also pull the opposite bar and get the same effect!!!! | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
So who has the lightbulb? | ||
| Rocketman |
Henrik, your posted pic shows why it's impossible to push the inside bar. Shoulder forward, arm open beyond 90 deg, elbow tucked inside your thigh, hand turned downward. Body leaning in and hanging off. You just demonstrated perfectly why it can't be done. See which way the front wheel is facing? That's an awful lot of pressure you gotta find from your inside arm for just a tiny amount of controlled movement of the steering. Tell you what, assume that position sat in a chair and you'll have trouble controlling a pen, even with your writing hand. Now there's something for you guys to try. Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on October 20, 2004) | ||
| Rocketman |
On the push pull argument Rocket.... how do you think this guy gets around right handers? Study the picture Simon because the answer is staring you in the face. In place of a left arm that guy has a steering damper. In the case of a right hand corner a PULLING force is exerted on the inside bar, which acts against the force of the steering damper on the outside bar, which is being PULLED, thus allowing a finitely controlled input from one arm only (on the inside side bar). Apply too much PULLING force on the inside bar in a right turn, ok the guy just relaxes his force slightly and the steering damper on the outside bar will relax too, which makes it PULL. In a left hand turn that one armed guy is allowed the luxury of pushing and pulling on the outside bar, just like you or I. That picture is further proof that one does not push on the inside bar. If that were the case that guy would be pushing against the steering forces and the steering damper he's fitted too. Rocket | ||
| Smoke |
my steering dampener doesn't push or pull, it just transfers fluid from one side to the other with the appropriate input applied. push or pull to initiate lean, it works both ways. tim | ||
| Aesquire |
Push, pull, same difference, it's the torque through the steering head. Position & such decide which set of muscles you use. It's just a wee movement, and your muscle memory will let you do it with either hand, since you do it with both anyway. | ||
| Rocketman |
Smoke, you miss the point. If you're pulling on the inside bar you're also pulling AGAINST (stretching) the force the steering damper is applying on the outside bar. This affect acts as a lever for the one handed racer to act against, attempting to simulate what you do using both hands. Similar, in a left hand corner the outside bar is being pushed, which is also pushing AGAINST (compressing)the force the steering damper is applying to the inside bar. This is what a two handed rider does. Push with the outside hand allowing the inside hand to be pushed against. Anyone that can't fathom that needs to go for a ride. Did you try writing with pen on paper in the position I mentioned? It says a lot about applied forces and what control one can exert. Go on, pull up a chair and assume the position. I dare ya! The torque through the steering head is neither here or there in this part of our discussion. Just pretend it doesn't exist otherwise we'll have to include forward motion etc etc, because that's the most significant force acting on the steering head. The steering head is simply a pivot for the steering mechanism to act around. Try not to confuse yourself. Rocket | ||
| Smoke |
sean, it's a dampener controlling fluid flow through an adjustable orifice, not a spring applying force in any direction. however, at higher settings it takes a stronger input to induce flow from side of the orifice to the other, as you know. i suggest that you take your bike out on the road with the dampener in the lowest setting and ride the same stretch one handed, first right and then left. the setups for left are interesting with no throttle or brake. don't scratch the ducati! ride safe, tim | ||
| Ingemar |
Rocket: sell me 2 of those steering dampers will ya? Then I can go around the track like a pro and I won't even need my hands! Steering dampers are passive. What you do with your left arm can NEVER be replaced by a passive device. It simply does what is says is does: dampen movement by offering resistance. Either one way or the other. It doesn't apply a force in either direction. Consequently, a steering damper will NEVER push or pull. I simply resists to movement input. There is no intelligence or magic involved in that damper that will allow it to replace an arm. Try not to confuse yourself. I think you are confused by thinking a steering damper is intelligent that it will attempt to simulate something a two-handed rider can do a one-handed rider can't! Now that's what I call bollocks Rocket   . | ||
| Henrik |
Henrik, your posted pic shows why it's impossible to push the inside bar. I always thought I was gifted - now I know  'cause pushing with my inside hand is what I do to initiate turn-in, and I do it from the body position in the picture. As far as the description of my body position, you have it almost right, but draw the wrong conclusion. 1) my hand is not turned down - wrist is straight and in line with my forearm. I know this, because my clutch is adjusted so that my wrist is straight in exactly that position, and if you notice (not clear in the picture) I have my fingers on the clutch lever. 2) My inside leg is pivoted out, so my thigh/knee is pointing out/down at about a 45° angle, allowing plenty of room for my arm to move. As for not being able to push in that position: sit upright in a chair with left arm hanging relaxed down, now bend your elbow 90° (sorta the beginning of a 12 oz curl ). Now raise your bent arm up in front of you, until your upper arm is parallel to the floor (forearm now pointing at the ceiling). From that position, can you lift your hand any further, if we allow some movement in shoulder and elbow? Short of an old shoulder injury, the answer should be yes. And that's darn close to the steering movement I use. In that picture, I have already pushed and initiated the turn, bike is (obviously) leaned in, and my inside arm is quite relaxed, since my outside leg does most of the hanging on. The front wheel is, at that point at neutral, not turned "out of" the turn. No need for much pressure on the bars at that point, since I'm done with turn-in. The picture was mostly to illustrate body position. I *did* try your seated experiment - and can write quite well like that. My handwriting is fairly illegible as it is, and body position didn't change that for neither better nor worse . My co-workers gave me some funny looks , but it worked just fine. Henrik | ||
| Glitch |
Try this little experiment and let me know what your results are... The same as yours, I was playing in my favorite abandon parking lot yesterday doing just that. | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah, I've decided Sean is trolling now. And in a good thread too... As a side note... You shouldn't try to make input to the bars with both hands. Only one. That way your hands aren't fighting each other at all. | ||
| Reepicheep |
M1... Sean is a master of many things. Subtlety ain't one of them  . If he was trolling, you'd know it. I don't think accusing him of that adds anything to this thread. This is a historically devisive topic, but a good one, argue theories all day long but lets try and keep personal accusations out of it. | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah, Good point... Sorry Sean. I just don't see why you disagree with pretty much EVERY point brought up. We all obviously do the same thing... | ||
| Buells Rule! |
Rocket is trolling. Court caught it early on as did a few others. No other topics he can play devils advocate in so he picked this one. And he's way off on steering dampers as Ingemar pointed out. A damper that pushes & pulls?? Hmm I can park my bike & leave the front wheel pointed any direction I wish, when I return its in the same position. No movement going on unless I intiate it. | ||
| Court |
To quote one of my favorite writers: "steering dampners generally do for a motorcycle what a brown bag does over the head of an ugly date" Court - 2003 Now, even I am willing to concede that I've spent lots on dampners and that they DO work. They DO NOT do what many folks beleive they do. If your suspension is not set up properly all else is for naught. There are a series of tests required to satisfy the United States government that a motorcycle possess what (I know there is a "right" term) I'll call "positive dynamic stability (term stolen from aircraft design) in that it will return to "straight and level flight through a decreasing series of osciallations" A properly designed and set-up motorcycle, if one were to kick the bars and induce 5o input, should (sould like a perfect world scenario?) return, through the aforementioned series of oscillations that diminish in amplitude, to straight. Farter smellers than I can work the details out of the above, but it provides at least some sense of the picture. The next part of my question will be vacated in the interest of international peace, but I'll leave it to you to determine which bar you'd kick to go a certain direction. P.S. - I know the answer. Bye kids.... |
