| Author | Message | ||
     M1combat |
I have heard that "proper peg weighting" most resembles a slalom skier. Mostly riding the outside ski. Lee Parks in Total Control seems to indicate that it doesn't matter which peg you weight, but the scope of his book was street riding... | ||
| Hans |
Well, all is said already about counter steering, but I want to tell you how that concept made my riding suddenly much better after 40 years snailing around corners. Never got any instruction, passed examination for drivers license and kept all my bicycle habits till a MSF course, were I was told to use mainly the front brake. Cornering went with minimal steering input: Just thinking the bike around the corner: Like riding on a well trained horse back. Always keeping the bike in balance: Very close swankings around the perfect balance point. The result is a too slow transition into the needed leaning position for a fast curve. A sudden gentle, but unnatural, countersteering input on the bars, brings the bike immediately far out of balance and let it fall into the corner. And there you can pick up your natural balancing reactions again. Hans. ( Slow learning, but still in progress) | ||
| Rocketman |
I have heard that "proper peg weighting" most resembles a slalom skier. Mostly riding the outside ski. Thats' a great analogy because that's exactly what's going in with your motorcycle - it has become the ski's. Peg weighting is all about the rider sitting UP in the corner and pushing the bike DOWN, and it induces counter steer, and oh yeah wait for it, counter steering with your feet against counter steering with your hands! WOW Rather than thinking of it done at far angles of lean (once the bike's leant over) think of it done when you've just got the bike turned and ready to fire out of a tight fast corner you've gone in way deep at. Weighting the outside foot peg in this scenario would make the bike sit-up because you're trying to get upright as fast as possible to get the hole shot. The best efforts for peg weighting, as in the ski analogy, would be where the bike is challenged to a series of very quick short left right left right left right flicks. In this example you'd never be in a position to hang off because the counter steer is keeping the bike upright through the corners. Your efforts in weighting the foot pegs is to counter the counter steer, thus steering the bike with your feet. A better faster rider would use the bars to exert the steering forces you're attempting with your feet. WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF COUNTER STEERING Rocket | ||
| Outrider |
I posted a comparo of riding to downhill skiing a few years back on the BWB. It is an extremely accurate comparo that supports both countersteering and weighting techniques. The countersteering being the "Pole Plant" and the weighting being the hop or up/down movement that unweights the ski to initiate and then weights it to carve the turn. If properly implemented it even moves your butt into position for hanging off. The only thing you need to concern yourself with at that point is not assuming the skier's "Comma" position with your upper body. That was discussed on the board last year and termed a "reverse hang off." It has been addressed in a few books (David Hough's comes to mind) as a riding technique in some low speed maneuvers. In fact, if you want to carry the skiing concept a step further, head first bikes equate to the Austrian technique and the neutral to feet first bikes equate to the French Avalement (sp) techique popularized by Jean Claude Killy. Additionally, Avalement is especially applicable to offroad riding in the tight turns and berm situations in order to initiate the turn and then hook up the rear tire (jet out of the turn). | ||
| Kaudette |
Anyone who is riding on the street without knowing or using marginal countersteering should really get a book (total control or other) or look into a riding class ASAP. The ONLY way you make it out of hairy situation in the corners when you have come in too fast is by countersteering (+ vision). Body position next, then brakes. You will never find the "best" line without countersteering and on top of that - you will be in the danger zone (leaned) much longer as your corner entry will be earlier - giving you less visibility and greater risk to obstacles & traffic, etc... Ride safe. | ||
| Bomber |
Jlnance -- as you can see, you've initiated a debate that compares favorably with one over religious terms -- at this point, however, all the posters are still being reasonably polite ;-} my suggestion to you would be pick up the books, read em, practice what's written there, sign up for a track day or six, and just keep learning many of the folks hear on the board are great riders, others write very well, still another group knows how to teach -- sadly, these groups do not oftne overlap, and, in the hurry to "correct" others postings (mostly semantically, you may have noticed), can really get ya wrapped around the axle most everyone is saying pretty much the same thing, though, as only a chosen few have figured out how to break the laws of physics (and none of them have chimed in on this thread yet) practice, sir, and you'll find your style -- next spring, sign up for asa many classes as you can, and you will learn much, and benefit more mostly, have fun, and like many have said, ride safe! | ||
| Blublak |
Errr.. What he said!  Well put Bomber.. Perhaps I was a little off in some of my posting.. But the basics are still there. We're all talking about the same thing, some of it just gets lost in the telling. Short answer to your question.. 'Your' line is the path YOUR motorcycle is taking through any given stretch of road or track. The rest of it.. well.. we're a passionate bunch.. and we love them curvies..  Nuff said.. Later. | ||
| M1combat |
Well said both of you  . | ||
| Rick_a |
Well, MY bike steers by MAGIC  | ||
| M1combat |
Alright... Now you did it... You made me go and grab my books... Here's what Lee parks has to say about Counter steering - "Counter steering is steering the bars in the opposite direction of the turn to get the bike to lean over." On Body steering - "As long as I have been riding, a debate has raged between proponents of countersteering and proponents of rider lean, or body steering. It has been my experience that you can indeed make fine course corrections using only rider weight shifts while in the middle of a turn. However, rider weight shifts are incapable of resulting in rapid directional changes. This was scientifically proven with Keith Code's "No B.S. Bike Trainer." The trainer utilized a second set of handlebars rigidly affixed to the frame along with a throttle. Riders found that it was impossible to make quick or accurate steering inputs by shifting only their body weight. Body steering may make a fine supplimental steering technique, but it can never be the primary force for directional changes." The first line under the heading "How Countersteering Works" is - "Simply put, countersteering is applying pressure to the inside handlebar in the direction of the intended turn and pushing forward" Near the end of that section he writes this - "After reaching your intended lean angle, the self correcting (castering) effect of the trail and gyroscopic precession keep the bike on the intended line. At this point, the physics get a little more complicated" OK, Lets get a little more complicated. On gyroscopic precession - "As a motorcycle travels down the road, it actually moves in a nearly undetectable low-amplitude weave, even when the rider thinks it's going straight." "When this happens, the bike begins to fall to one side and a phenomenon known as gyroscopic precession causes the wheel to turn into (keep in mind it says "into"  the direction of the fall. At this point, our old friend centrifugal force pushes the motorcycle in the opposite direction." On steering technique - "It is my ardent belief that when cornering you should only use your inside arm to steer." (which precludes the idea that you should pull on the outside bar) "Although I originally came up with this theory while watching a video of my studants in action, I proved its validity the hard way while practicing in one of Freddy Spencer's High Performance Riding Schools. As I approached a turn that was giving me problems, one that had me almost running off the outside, I decided to test my hypothesis and just let my inside arm do all the work. And boy did it ever work. In fact, initiating the turn at exactly the same position on the track, even with substantially less effort on the bars, I turned so much quicker that I ran off the inside of the track and actually crashed. Sorry again, Freddie. I was obviously on to something." Sooo, it seems as though countersteering is actually the act of pushing on the inside bar (or at least Lee parks says so...). How about Keith Code? On Tightening a turn - "To tighten up a turn and increase your lean angle, you must countersteer again." He also says - "The major trouble riders have with decreasing radius turns is in not knowing how to steer." More later if needed, I'm headed to lunch. | ||
| Jlnance |
blublak - Well it's cause your wife sent me the link to your writeup about the CLASS school that I asked. So I guess I can blame her, or perhaps you, for this thread :-) | ||
| Outrider |
I see lots of reading going on and attempts at interpretation. I guess my question is do many of you actually go out and practice until the techniques become instinctive reactions? We all started out crawling and walking before we ran. Well, the same thing applies to riding. Many great books discussing technique that weren't available when many of us started riding. Heck, the techniques, terminology, even classes or licensing didn't even exist to communicate what is now considered the physics of motorcycling. Makes it a lot easier for today's FNG's. Most certainly good reading material. Just take a section, study it and go practice it. Then repeat with the next section. You can't learn it all overnight. Just take your time and get it right. Perhaps you may consider starting with a street skills book and gradually progressing to a series of race books. I would suggest Hough, Ienatch and Code in that order. That would cover street, advanced street and novice/intermediate track followed by advanced track. Have been riding 46 years now and I still duck out to a large vacant parking lot a few times a month to practice various maneuvers and then off to a few favorite roads to practice others. Spend too much time riding and not practicing and you may forget that one instinctive detail that can save your life someday. I had my close call almost two weeks ago and am very glad I practice religiously. | ||
| Rocketman |
Who the hell is Lee Parkes anyway? Just because he wrote some damn book doesn't make him right. Hell, I write on BadWeB. Does this make me wrong? Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
LOL... It's a good book Rocket. Keith Code says the same thing just in case you trust him. Because the portion of the tire patch that you are using on the fron tire is on the inside the bike will attempt to turn the handlebars in that direction. This will straighten the bike if you don't hold the bars or don't hang off correctly. Counter steering is the act of preventing this from happening, therefor letting centrifugal force do it's part in the magic balancing game. | ||
| Gsxr_is_gone |
I took Keith Code's level one and two this last Friday and Saturday in Phoenix, and rode the No B.S. Bike and you'll have a hard time making a corner on it. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Pros Practice!!!! We have access to a fenced off enclosed course. We practice out there and let go a little. Its a lot of fun and we get a chance to drag parts on the bike. | ||
| Loki |
Who is Lee Parks? editor of: Motorcycle Consumer News, 1995-2000 racer: AMA 125 GP teacher: Advanced Riding Clinic(ARC), designed for street riders. Everybody should practice! Sometimes I just can't pass up a good empty parking lot. Everybody should experience one of Reg's(Kitrell) BattleTrax events. | ||
| Rocketman |
Funny how these journo type, sometime bike racers are all of a sudden fcuking scientists! Do me a favour dudes. Go ride your bikes into a counter steer then come back and tell me if it was easier to steer and control your bike with your inside arm pushing or your outside arm pulling. Be sure to try both ways with only your 'working' arm holding the bars then come back and tell me if I'm a scientist too. Rocket | ||
| Aesquire |
Rocket, is it your point that it's easier to pull the outside bar than push the inside? I would think the ergo's on that would work out, if the outside arm is straight so you hang your mass on it, perceived effort would be minimal. You would also be hanging off on the inside sort of monkey like. At least the argument here is about fine points of technique, and not ( I've had this one more than once ) whether "counter steer" is real. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Pushing the bar is easier....yes I have tried each technique. | ||
| M1combat |
Pushing the bar is easier and more precise. With the pull method you add another spring. This being your fingers. The push method uses mostly your palm. Your palm is harder and MUCH less flexible. Your inside arm will not be affected by forces coming through the chassis as it isn't laying across the tank. I have tried both methods. I generally only use the pull method in a left hand corner when I decide to waive at another rider. It ALWAYS feels less stable. I believe with practice the pull method could be used as effectively as one uses the push method, but I think that an investment in time spent pushing would yield greater results in skill. | ||
| Ethanr |
I find that if I pull the outside grip I tend to sit up more instead of leaning into the corner and getting my weight down. But both of my bikes (04 XB12S, 97 Valkyrie) tend to make it easier to steer at speed by pulling...it's hard to lean into the bars on either one. Probably ought to get some clip-ons for the XB, but that's another thread. | ||
| Henrik |
I've tried both pulling and pushing. Seem to be using both at the moment. I find it easier (for me) to push when turning in. Most likely because I try to drop my inside elbow/shoulder into the turn as well as get my head/upper body a bit to the inside of the bike. I find that all that makes it easier for me to relax the "death grip" on the bars and use my lower body to hold on/stabilize. However, when coming out of turns, standing the bike back up, I find it helpful to pull on the inside bar a bit. Makes for a quicker transition from one side to the other in quick S-turns. In discussing this, it might be helpful to distinguish between the physics involved in making a 2-wheeler turn and the actions you, the rider take to make this happen. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
how many angles are dancing on the head of this pin, er, lightbulb? sheeesh | ||
| M1combat |
Pushing and pulling wasn't the topic... It was whether countersteering in a noun or verb. So far all the books seem to say that a person countersteers and a bike obeys the laws of physics. | ||
| Mikej |
"Countersteering" is both a noun and a verb depending upon usage. Well, maybe it's more of an esoteric virtual concept than a noun, yeah that's the ticket it's an EVC an esoteric virtual concept yeah that's what it is or maybe an esoteric verbial concept yeah that's the ticket to and it still works with EVC yeah we're on a roll here not to be confused with rolling into a turn or rolling the handlebars to induce a turn when taking an erudite virtual corner and hey another EVC yeah ..... I'll wander back into the recesses of my mind now, there's an EVC in there somewhere to ponder and peruse and pontificate and plunder imaginatively .... yeah that's the ticket....... | ||
| M1combat |
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| Aesquire |
verb, it's an action done by the rider. | ||
| Xb9er |
It's a complicated issue and I didn't do so well in Physics class. I think I was confusing gyroscopic precession with counter-steer a little bit. I still maintain that counter-steering is an unfortunate term, because you DO NOT steer a motorcycle in the normal sense. There's the initial steering input (push and/or pull on bars) to initiate a lean and while in the lean you make minor corrections to end up at the intended exit point. Even if the front wheel lifts, you can maintain the lean angle and continue through a turn which to me is not steering in the normal sense. We actually do steer a bike by turning the handlebars left to go left and right to go right when moving under 10 mph or so. This guy has a simple discussion of motorcycle steering dynamics: http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html This is a hard topic to discuss but at least I'm wasting time here and not in the Politics section of this website. Mike. | ||
| M1combat |
It's not difficult... A bike follows the laws of physics. These laws are gyroscopic precession and centrifugal force. I believe that centrifugal force has a greater effect by a very large margin (even though they are entirely different things). Gyroscopic precession will only account for a minor portion of the lean. Centrifugal force allows the bike to stay balanced while cornering. You basically balance the lean angle against the centrifugal force. You do this by countersteering. Xb9er, you are correct is saying that we don't steer motorcycles in the "normal" way... We countersteer them. Keep in mind this doesn't always mean that the steering head is pointed to the outside (It only is at turn in), but that we are steering in a direction counter to the way the self correcting geometry of the suspension wants to steer. When you are leaned over, the pavement is in effect pulling the inner side of the tire towards the rear of the bike. This makes the bars want to turn into the corner. We maintain lean angle by steering against this force. |
