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Starter
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 01:45 am: | 
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Brad,
I know that Optimax is an oxygenated fuel blend and in some cases leans out the A/F ratio but I was under the impression that BP Ultimate was exactly the same stuff. The reason I chose it was close to home service station and recommended RON.
I am in the process of conducting a trial in which I will run a couple of different fuels through the XB on the same day, same conditions to determine the best choice. I'm begging, borrowing and stealing fuel containers and intend on running 2lt of each fuel available. Only problem I have at the moment is the fuel left in the tank when the fuel pump fails to pick up. |
Trenchtractor
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 02:15 am: |
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Yeah, I tried 3 different brands from 6 different distributors...
I hadn't heard the Ultimate being oxygenated... I know BP refuses to use ethanol... |
Opto
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 03:51 am: |
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It's been strongly recommended to me NOT to use Optimax, and I know it causes probs in some XB9's, but I've used it heaps in the 12 and it's still in the top 2 with BP Ultimate. They are both "high density" fuels if you want to do some research. The Optimax is also apparently a no-no for Triumphs. |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 09:00 am: |
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TT I was told not to use OB, not for the increase in octane rating but in the detrimental effects to the O2 sensor. I was told to see if I could find an unleaded race fuel, and add it into a seperate fuel container in a ratio depending on the octane of the race fuel. 101 would be 3 parts 91/92 to 1 part 101, 104 would be at a 4 to 1 ratio. If I got ahold of 110-116 it would be a cup full to a gallon mix. The biggest problem with octane boosters, atleast the general consumption ones around is they use a kerosene derivative or similar which when burnt tends to foul or eat up the O2 sensor. Like you said researching and finding one that is good is the difficult part. Finding unleaded race gas...nigh on impossible around here. |
P0p0k0pf
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 09:32 am: |
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Concernig the IAT...
How about insulating the Airbox? Wycked's testimony of a hot airbox cover leads me to believe the engine heat is a significant contributor to his air-temp-related ping observation. Is there space to insulate the bottom side of the box above the motor?
Short story- I had a late model M3 (BMW) come into work with the intake manifold covered w/ foiled insulation and the owner spoke of a 10HP increase to his 333hp motor on the dyno...all by protecting the Intake Air Temp... |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 09:51 am: |
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I don't think anyone's questioning the insulating of the air box. It's easy and cheap.
It's the position of the IAT that's in question. For me anyway. Hillbilly says to put it under the mat close to the engine, others here say to leave it where it is so it can read the cooler air charge. |
Starter
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 06:37 pm: |
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If you read the user manual it recommends the use of oxygenated blends. |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 07:00 pm: |
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Ethanol is ok for your XB, it is found in the brand name "ISO-HEET" red bottle. one 12 ounce bottle to each gallon of gasoline will give a 9% alcohol mixture, and will raise the octane approximately 3 points. since buying wife a Ducati M620 in july we have been running only 87 octane in both bikes, no additives needed, and no detonation problems. for the first 7000 miles i ran the XB12 on 90 octane exclusive, but it has not run any different on 87, so i dont see any point in premium, at least in this climate. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 08:25 pm: |
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Incase you really need it Wycked - Bennett Oil up here in Prescott has 110 and I believe it is unleaded. |
Trenchtractor
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 10:24 pm: |
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Wyked, The stuff I was using is O2 sensor safe, high quality and NOT cheap... And I was buying it at cost price from my brother... The fact he was a supplier of the stuff I chose to use was a lovely coincidence...
Also, the manual says not to use OB OR RACE FUELS as they WILL damage the O2 sensor... So what's the difference between OB and race fuel?? Why does your source say no to OB and yes to race fuel?? As far as I'm concerned, both need to be treated with the same considerations WRT the O2 sensor...
Glitch, HBM had performance gains by putting the IAT sensor under the insulating mat... For those of us close to the limit as far as the pinging goes (ie hotter climates, lower grade fuel) we need to have the IAT sensor reading the cooler air... If you get great fuel and a mild climate then I say fill yer boots, put it in the hotter air space under the airbox.
FP, Ethanol is an oxygenated fuel. It has the effect of 'enleanment' (hey the Australian Govn't use that term), and would have an effect on the AFV... The manual states you can use E10 (10% blend), this is because the AFV should be able to compensate for E10. E20 would be outside the AFV available range.
In Australia, E10 only has to comply with the minimum standard for regular unleaded, that is 91RON.
The 2004 international owners manual states on one page (E-62) that 95RON Minimum is required. It then addresses fuel blends over the next page (E-64) stating which blends are OK. Since it's an international manual, Buell wouldn't be aware that for Australia these two pages kinda contradict each other.
My bike only won't ping if I run 98RON... Makes me laugh that the research octane number here I have to run is 98, while FP can run his XB12 on 90... Just goes to show the difference in fuel standards...
And for anyone wanting to run an ethanol blend, you might want to do some research on what can happen when you add half a tank of regular unleaded to half a tank of E10 if there is any water in your tank... |
Odie
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 10:27 pm: |
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PoP, I have finished my heat barriers for under the airbox. I have cut away my upper but am running the lower for simplicity and mounting the IAT sensor. My heat barrier goes under it great. I am going to start on a barrier for under the seat next. |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 10:42 pm: |
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TT most of the available race fuels are NOT unleaded here. Also running straight racefuel over, IIRC from school, 98 octane here, requires ignition adjustment to utilise the best performance from it. Higher then 98 octane has a longer/slower fuel burn which means you can add more advance. I have used in the past a product called "RocketFuel" which was designed for use in HD bigtwins that suffered from fuel related pinging. Its a great product. I just don't know if it is O2 sensor safe and the manufacturer hasn't responded to my email requests. It is however not legal for use in Automobiles, so it makes me wonder if its not O2 sensor safe. |
Xbolt12
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:29 am: |
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Odie,
Pics please!
If you decide to sell them let us know. I'm using the thin stick on stuff right now and although I believe it helped some, I don't think it made a big difference and it was a lot of work to cut and trim. I am gauging this on how hot the seat gets, not on engine power (I did the bottom of the airbox, the bottom of the seat, and the front of the battery box, just behind the shock.
xbolt12 |
Xbolt12
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 12:31 am: |
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BTW: The stick-on heat shield material would be ideal to use on the inside of the frame to reflect some of the cylinder and exhaust heat heating up the fuel and the rider! Unfortunately I ran out of patience and material
xbolt12 |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 01:30 am: |
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Xbolt what material did you use and where did you get it? Sorry if already posted but I missed it.
Doesn't somebody make a larger plastic right side scoop to match the left? I don't care for the carbon fiber one. That might be helpful at speed but might make the fan less efficient when stopped. I think the right scoop is shallow for noise rules as I understand bikes are tested from the right side.
You might raise the IAT farther up into the airbox away from the bottom? |
Opto
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 05:55 am: |
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I was under the impression that the only thing an O2 sensor doesn't like is lead, can anyone add to this? |
Hogs
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 06:22 am: |
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FYI guys I have been us OB for the past 7000 klms all this talk about not good for the OB(yup i seen the post in the manual about that) well if So when the OB starts to pack it in How will I know what are the symptons too look out for ..?? |
Trenchtractor
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 08:39 am: |
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Wyked, IIRC the top Nulon OB is marked 'safe for O2 sensors'... If you've been having trouble with pinging, try it for a tank and see if the pinging goes away. Simple. If it does, you need less advance or better fuel. In 95RON it should improve the RON by 3 to 3.5... Great if you don't have access to the 98RON fuels...
Your are right about the higher octane fuels needing advance adjustment to gain improvement. This is why a better RON is needed for the XB12's, they have the advance curve set up aggressively to take advantage of the best fuels... M&W sent 3 x eight gallon drums of the best fuel they could get to Buell USA so Buell USA could map for Australia. I am assuming now that they send 3 drums of 98RON, since anything less causes some XB12's to ping.
Opto, that's my understanding, also... It's also why I thought it funny Wyked's mechanic told him to use a race fuel and not an OB... I don't know if I'd trust that guy...
The whole OB issue is kinda like weather or not to circumcise your son... Wars have been started over this kind of thing...  |
Odie
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 09:11 am: |
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XBolt12, I'll post an airbox pic in an hour or so but I'm still working on my seat barrier....Odie |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 01:46 pm: |
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Most of the OB's leave a residue that fouls the O2 sensor. If you ever run a bottle of OB then pull the plugs you will notice they are generally red tinged. Well that red tinge coats the O2 sensor which makes it read very off after awhile. Also my mechanic said to use Unleaded racefuel if I could find it, which would in itself act like an OB without the residue. Hogs, you will know by rough running and eventually a check engine code for the O2 sensor.
TT what is this "Nulon" schtuff and where on this side of the pond can I find it? See this is part of the problem. What is available to you is not available to me. And vice versa. I KNOW the problem here is a combination of fuel and ambiant heat. Went for a ride lastnight and not a ping, ambiant temp was about 85F/29C, yet yesterday afternoon with an ambiant of 98F/36C I had ping problems. The other thing I have come to realise is the ping hits from 3500-4500. Even accidentally missing a down shift (bad ankle sometimes causes a lack of up or down shift movement not a mechanical problem but a rider problem) which leads to being in too high a gear and a bit of lugging won't bring ping at all until I hit 3500. Which happens to be the same point the ECM moves from the open to closed loop. It was also my understanding that is the point the exhaust valve moves. My understanding is the exhaust valve moves in order to lengthen the exhaust run to help fill that midrange hole then it opens back up for the highspeed flow the bike needs at the higher RPMS. It also Opens from low speed RPM at WOT to just let the motor fly through the revs. If I hit WOT from just off idle, say 2000, I don't get any ping. It just seems that when the motor is hitting that rev range when the exhaust valve is closed and on the longest loop is when I am getting the ping. |
Trenchtractor
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 09:31 pm: |
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Wyked, I think you are giving the ECM and interactive exhaust more credit than they deserve... I think from my own research the operation is a LOT simpler than that... In fact I suspect a single 'transition' at 5200rpm (based on dyno curves)...
This side of the pond?? Which side are you on?? If your in Australia, Nulon is 100% Aussie made and owned... The stuff you wanna try is their 'Pro Strength Octane Booster'.
Here's a quote from the bottle:
Instantly boosts the octane rating of leaded and unleaded fuel. Pro strength maximises horepwer & eliminates pinging (detonation). Pro Strength Octane Booster is designed for use in high performance & race engines with carburettors or fuel injection. Pro Strength is safe for use in both leaded & unleaded fuel race fuel & avgas.
BENIFITS
1. Boosts octane by up to 7 numbers
2. Stops engines pinging (detonation)
3. Maximises horsepower potential
4. Increases performance
5. Increases acceleration
6. Reduces overheating & piston damage
7. Safe for catalytic converters & oxygen sensors
8. Protects valves and valve seats from wear.
NOTE: To fully obtain the horsepower boosting benifits of Pro Strength, you may need to advance the engine ignition timing.
One bottle treats 60L.
Nulon Products Australia PTY LTD
Unit 1, 4 Narabang Way, Belrose, NSW 2085
1800 679 922
www.nulon.com.au
That's all straight off the bottle... You can pick it up from virtually anywhere... Jeez, am I trying to sell this stuff or what??
The claim of 7 RON boost is using really low grade fuel... Expect it to get 95RON Aussie fuel to not quite 99RON.
THE POINT IS... I would use OB to remidy the pinging rather than retard the timing. |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 09:47 pm: |
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That was my point TT, Nulon is available on YOUR side of the pond(AU) but I have no idea if its available on THIS side of the pond(US)
The Service manual gives 3 seperate examples of when the IAEV moves. Page 7-18. I am going to be lazy and not type it all out but the description that seems to match my situation is @. In the midrange the valve is closed to increase acceleration torque. The exhaust flows through chamber A. around to chamber B, then through chamber C and exits. At which point once I get into the higher revs the ping goes away which seems to coincide with option 3 where the valve opens and the short route is run.
I agree I think retarding the timing will cause more damage then help.
(Message edited by wyckedflesh on September 30, 2004) |
U4euh
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:06 pm: |
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Hey Fella's,
Don' mean to interupt converstion, but I am new to the F.I. , V-twin world. I am reading everyone else's post and are wondering What is the IAC I see some of you talking about, and should I move mine? I have an '03 9S. And what about drilling holes in my stock air box, does this help? |
Trenchtractor
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 03:42 am: |
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Well, I'm about to trial a prototype air box eliminator and will be fooling around with the position of the Iintake Air Temp (IAT) Sensor.
Drill holes in your air box (not the outer cover), but stay away from the right hand rear corner of it (adjacent to your right thigh) 'cos that bit gets pretty hot. You will have much improved throttle response... |
Odie
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 08:51 am: |
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Ttractor, let me know what different positions you move the IAT to and what kind of results you get.....Thanks...Odie |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 09:01 am: |
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Not to mention a swap to the $35 XB12 inner airbox cover which now comes stock on the '05 XB9's. |
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