| Author | Message | ||
     Starter |
Has anyone tried retarding the static timing a couple of degrees to try to curb the pinging under load. I would appretiate any information on the effects of this on the DDFI? Coming into the warmer months over here and yesterday gave me my first dose of heavy pinging. Not impressed to say the least. | ||
| Ingemar |
Nobody? Just out of interest I've been watching this question. I'm amazed nobody plugged into yet ... Maybe they missed it ... BUMP!  | ||
| Glitch |
OK, I did this. Only thing I would have done differently is by taking smaller steps. Once you have the cover off, you'll notice the plate that changes static timing has marks on it close to the edge. Mark where it is right now. Move counter clockwise, a half a mark. Ride it and see if that helps. Wash rinse repeat if needed. Maybe they missed it ... Guess I'm just not on my toes today  | ||
| Ingemar |
Guess I'm just not on my toes today : ) Can't blame you. Read your post on the quick board today and it doesn't sound like your having a ball. Its good to read people are taking care of each other and it makes me wish I could be there too. Thanx for taking care of these guys! Hang in there man! | ||
| Starter |
1/2 a mark, I'm assuming that is about half a degree, sounds feasible (although my GSXR used to have an 8 degree advance on it and it never had any troubles). I've seen somewhere that about 2 degrees of retard was the solution for a problem 12. If only these bikes came with a knock sensor. On a similar note, does anyone know off hand what the additional advance is on the Race ECM. I've got a feeling that retiming may just take the additional advance away from the Race ECM and change the spark map back to stock. Can't be sure if the Race ECM is the problem on mine cause I've only owned it during winter. Just for the record the ping is between 3000-4000 rpm when rolling on the throttle. | ||
| Joojoo |
Starter, I get the same slight ping. Comes on only when the motor is HOT, real hot. no probs otherwise. My Buell mechanic builds Buell race bikes for the dealership sponsored Buell races..I'll be speaking to him tomorrow. Ill post any good info.. Jack | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Ok, I'll have a go...  But you knew I would eventually... Although retarding the static timing (idle) by 2 degrees had in the past stopped my bike from pinging, I disagree with this method. These bikes only ping at certain places. It seems to vary from bike to bike and it's severity varies, too, from bike to bike. Some do it at operating temp with the race ECM, others only do it when really hot, some do it with the stock ECM. Can you say 'Manufacturing tollerances'?? (prepares to don flame retardant suit). So, imagine the average problem bike, pings some times, warmer than average days, at around 4,000rpm when trying to drive out of turns. This then, is the condition that needs retarding, not static timing. If you retard the static timing 2 degrees, then the above condition may be rectified, but the bike will lose performance everywhere else, since the advance everywhere else was right before, and is now retarded by 2 degrees also... Retarding the static timing is a no cost 'band aid' solution to a problem that I think requires more attention... LIKE FIXING THE FUEL HOLE THERE. Oh, and I'd like to see you guys that, like me, have trouble with the pinging, try using a product like Nulon Octane Booster... Not that I think we should have to run octane booster, but to provide a pattern... I put octane booster in mine and it ran a whole lot better. I think this means the Stock ECM should be mapped differently (less agressive advance, more fuel) to suit a greater variety of fuels, then provide the Race ECM as the alternative to those who CHOOSE the agressive advance and have constant access to the highest quality fuel. My 2 cents... (must be up to quite a few dollars on 'pinging' by now) | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
TT I agree with you completely. Just this past weekend was a perfect example of what you are saying about sometimes a ping and other times not. FIRST! I will state that all of the stations I fueled up at were SEPERATE HOSE stations. On Saturday morning I had no ping, ambiant temp of 75F. Saturday afternoon Ambiant temp 95F, light ping between 3K and 4K RPM cruising speed and light ping under loads exiting the corners two up. Saturday evening, ambiant air 75F no ping at all as with the morning. Sunday morning, 4th gear tight twisties with the occasional dip to 2K under load but all the way up to the soft limiter and up and down in between 2 up ambiant air 49F-75F in a 45 min decent of mountain side to the open desert, not a single ping or complaint, extremely smooth delivery. Sunday afternoon, open desert, ambiant air 102F...PING like windchime orchestra. Light load, cruising, didn't matter, just kept getting ping. I think the concept of the IAT might be the problem, it can't compensate for the real air density as much as it needs to. It keeps running the engine too lean because its expecting so much air at the forced temp in the airbox, but due to the heat of the engine and the heat of the ambiant air the air getting sucked in is too thin. All day saturday my airbox was warm but that was it, Sunday afternoon my airbox was hot enough to turn my hand RED just in touching it. | ||
| M1combat |
What about a colder plug? Maybe gap them down a bit so the flame front isn't that big initially? I really thing the second best solution is a DFO and the best solution is an aftermarket EFI and a Crane ignition. That should support as much HP as you can build... w/o pinging depending on where you put the compression. | ||
| Opto |
Starter I think each line is 5 degrees of timing, the cam runs half engine speed. I tried approx 5 degrees retard and the bike ran real rough at low rpm and hard starting. At approx 2 or 3 degrees no problems. Make sure the timing is correct to start with since they don't set it very well at the factory, mine was delivered several degrees advanced, and so was my new Sportster in 1996. | ||
| Static |
Couldn't a cooler plug possibly lead to fouling issues during less aggressive riding? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
When do I ride less aggressively? I have a fresh set of Iridiums yet to install, I have been told it has really helped for those riders getting ping here in the Valley of the Sun. | ||
| Joojoo |
A few questions... 1. I will add the octane boosters if it'll make for a better running Buell without pinging under heat. Question is, what are the dangers of adding an octane booster to the gas? Why do they say not too? 2. Will these occasional pings kill our motors in the long run? I dont want to have to ride soft when its hot outside, and Im running with my buddies. I dont think I should have too. Ill tell you though, It was HOT here in Toronto last weekend, I went out for a ride, lots of stop and go, and that motor was HOT. The pings started, but I just ignored them, and had my fun. I had a few nice pings on hard acceleration. I got more upset with every ping. If this DESIGN FLAW kills my block over time I will leave this brand for good. We pay too much hard earned $ to have to worry about figuring out motor design issues for the company's tech team. Not cool. If I knew that these pings were going to do 0% damage over time, then maybe I would be ok with it. Whole thing freaks me out. Jack | ||
| Slowby |
if you want more fuel the move the iat to a cooler spot. it thinks there will be more air and sends more fuel when you twist the throttle. while putting along it can look at the o2 sensor and equal out the fuel to air (afv) | ||
| Glitch |
You sure about that? | ||
| Slowby |
do it on all hd fuel injection. twin cam, evo, v-rod, tube frames. the nice thing about buell is it doesn't look at the map when it is looking at the o2 sensor. the open closed loop. | ||
| Glitch |
I wonder why HillBilly Bikers chooses to move the IAT closer to the heated air from the engine with their FAST system rather than putting it in the cooler air created by the insulation. | ||
| 2k4xb12 |
Just as an aid, if you're attempting to check your static timing by yourself (no, you don't HAVE to take it to the dealer and hook it up to the DT), check my post in the KV at http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/3589.html?1095740945#POST284 357 Steve... | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Steve. Good one. | ||
| Whodom |
Jack- I still think the occasional ping is no problem at all. OTOH, if my bike was pinging like Wyked says his was (cruising at light throttle and continous pinging) I would be seriously worried about that. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
It wasn't continuos pinging, but intermittent pinging. The fact it would happen while just cruising is the disconcerting part. I don't think moving the IAT would help as again, like I said, the ambiant air temp is very high and being in the desert the humidity is very low. | ||
| Whodom |
Wycked- thanks for the clarification. Glad it's not continuous. Happening while cruising is still pretty disconcerting. Did it get immensely worse if you'd open the throttle under these conditions? | ||
| M1combat |
One stage cooler plug shouldn't cause a fouled plug, but would start the flame front a little less aggressively. I would probably go back to the standard plug for the winter though. I still think that the best solutions are to remove a little of the static timing or a DFO to remove the lean condition. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
For about 500-1000 rpm higher it would then go away, it almost seems, as I have been sitting here reviewing the weekend and what RPM I was spending most of the time cruising at due to traffic, and going through the manual, to be happening the most just before the Exhaust Valve opens, then carries through to its closing again. | ||
| Fullpower |
attempting to rectify a lean detonation problem with octane boosters or retarded spark is futile. if it is running lean,you NEED MORE FUEL. | ||
| M1combat |
Agreed FP... I think the DFO box is at the moment the best solution to the ping thing. Of course, this assumes that the static timing is set up correctly in the first place. I ran through the deserts of socal at 100MPH for a couple hours and had not one ping and I was trying to make it ping. I think the first thing a person should do if their bike is pinging is to check the timing. If that doesn't fix it, get a techlusion... | ||
| Deerhunter17 |
been all around this one. My pinging occurs on fairly hot (80's) HUMID days, after engine has had a chance to get hot. The higher the temp, the more likely the pinging will occur. I run Mobil 1, V twin 20 - 50, and ping is most noticeable from 3200 - 4200 , while cruising steady ( no ping ), upon any attempt to accelerate w/ out down shifting....ping away! It has been less frequent since installing race ECM, but could be coincidental due to the fact it has been cooler. I use only 93 octane fuel from top brand stations, seems to perform best on Citco for some reason. I had my (static) timing checked, and it was right on.I getting ready to do the 5000 mile deal, and am contemplating using a different oil. (Message edited by deerhunter17 on September 28, 2004) | ||
| Joojoo |
Hey guys, I spoke to my mechanic. He said its normal. The pings will not hurt our engines. Do not retard your ignition timing. Not a healthy thing to do for the motor. As well, dont add octane boost, it heats up the pistons quite a bit, and that can cause damage. He said ride it, dont worry about it. You also dont have to change your riding style. It will not hurt the motor. In fact, its expected and normal. He owns an XB9, and builds some Dealership sponsored race Buells. I trust him... | ||
| Starter |
Because it is not pinging on steady revs I am quite sure from my experience that the spark plug heat range is not the problem. I've had experience (in cars) with plugs being too hot and the engines ping constantly once the plug temp is hot enought to pre ignite whether under load or cruising. Looking at my plugs there is definately plenty of deposit burn off happening so they may be on the hot side but I think are OK. Everyone seem to be getting the pinging at similar rpm which sugggest to me it may not be a fuel type related problem rather due to the ignition map and/or A/F ratio. I think it is the ignition map myself. BTW my bike has only ever been run on Shell Optimax which is supposed to be 98 RON. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Brad, Optimax is B A D... I can try and find some data on that one, but it's not good stuff... I compared teh spec sheet and it is identical in spec to the AVESCO V8's fuel. I know everyone knows the V8's use optimax, but they order a different designation. Anyhow, just 'cos they use it doesn't mean it's good. BP Ultimate is the goods. Joo, Man, your mechanic says that the pinging is fine but you shouldn't use octane booster?? WOW!! I'd like to know the expected life of these motors if the pinging is expected... And if increasing the octane of the fuel is bad then why do manufacturers specify a MINIMUM RON level?? Seriously, here in Australia our fuel is 5h1te compared to stateside... If we are using what our servo's call 95RON as specified in the manual as the MINIMUM standard, it's closer to a USA 90RON... We need all the extra octane we can get. Octane booster won't give any extra power, but it does allow higher compression and more aggressive advance. If a race ECM works fine with OB and pings it's head off without, then I'd say the problem is TOO AGGRESSIVE ADVANCE. Or you take the same bike, fit up the stock ECM and the pinging goes away... So, if the stock ECM has even less fuel than the Race ECM but a more relaxed ADVANCE CURVE and runs fine W/O OB... Well, I'm hoping to plot a pattern here... The RACE ECM may have a TOO AGRESSIVE ADVANCE CURVE for the amount of fuel it provides... I mean, fuel quality, quantity, advance and compression all have a very close relationship. It'd be oh so easy to set this relationship up in the quest for more performance very close to the limit... Add a warm climate and the result - PINGING. But if you are suffering pinging, you need either more fuel, better fuel, less advance (not retarded timing), less compression or a cooler climate. You could move accross country to a cooler climate Compression isn't real easy to 'adjust' Advance adjustment is impossible with the DDFI, so you could fit the stock ECM or if the stock ECM is the one giving the problem, retard the timing (tisk tisk) You can add more fuel by using the fuel controller if you have the $270USD odd spare Or you could use better fuel, but if better fuel is not available due to regional constraints, adding OB is a cheap experiment to prove a point... Bear in mind here that you need to use a reputable brand, do the research, there are a lot of 5h1tty brands that have really nasty things in them... There was even one brand I found that REDUCED the RON of the fuel it was added to!! I did weeks of research to find a brand that other people had been using with good effect, it was supported by published independant testing, too. I'd like to see a thread that had in it ONLY posts by those who had suffered pinging, their conditions and findings/solutions... But that would require Blake to manage that one, since the hordes just wouldn't be able to. Seems to me there are more problem machines now than there was 4 or 5 months ago... Just a feeling I get. My bike was chronic for pinging. I've fixed mine, so my opinions and advice are only that, based on my experience and research. |
