| Author |
Message |
    
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 11:11 am: | 
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What's the point?
There are plenty of aftermarket FI controllers that should work just fine. Mega-Squirt is only one of them (and an expensive one at that). They a FULLY programmable via LT or PDA, record data if you want them to, will run more than just your Buell so any time you go somewhere you could theoretically just swap it out to your other toys and load the proper map. After this, get a Crane HI4-E. Trigger the FI off the new ign system a VIOLA!!! Your VERY OWN custom mapped system (spark and fuel) and guess what, you can even turn the rev limiter up to 9900 for some spectacular fireworks  . All you need to do is tap a MAP sensor. If you wanted to get REALLY WILD AND CRAZY you could even tap an a/f mixture sensor just in case the map sensor doesn't provide the adjustment you need when climbing the mountains.
Problem solved yes? |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 02:19 pm: |
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I'm sure you don't need a remap on the ECM to create a pile of molten metal!!
As was said in a movie I watched awhile ago "With great power, comes great responsibility" (man I'm quoting that Spiderman movie, wtf??)
I went to the SEMA show last year (a trade show for the automotive aftermarket) and aftermarket ECMs and products to reprogram were plentiful. If everyone was blowing up their stuff with these products, I think the demand for the products would be alot less. Sounds like that old wives tale about nitrous blowing up your engine, no, improper or incorrect use of nitrous will blow up your engine.
I guess I'm just disappointed that no tools to do the job correctly are available for the Buell. It relates back to my Triumph comment, which I find ironic really, you can remap the entire ECM for a bike which has very little aftermarket parts available, but for the bike which you can almost build an entirely aftermarket engine, they don't offer one. Even HD offers the screaming beagle reprogramming kit, and I wouldn't call most of their offerings high performance.
Yes, I would still like to own a Buell motorcycle, but I can't afford more than one motorcycle. Believe me, I got a list of several I'd like to have, but right now I got to come up with one which best meets my primary needs. And now I believe that is the '05 speed triple.
Mr Buell I'm still waiting for you to build my bike  How 'bout we call it the XV11S?
Thx Brad
(Message edited by kbbeckius on September 24, 2004) |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 10:24 pm: |
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Glitch sezz:
The race ECM doesn't learn anything. It only does what it's told by you.
Outrider den sezz:
Glitch...Am I correct in assuming you are referring to an adjustable Race ECM?
YOu gottit. The adjustable race ECM is more like re-jetting carbs. You setup a map for so many microseconds of "squirt" at each throttle position and RPM band and do it differently for each cylinder.
There's a "learned fuel" setting which can be used to adjust the overall fuel mapping up or down - sorta like for altitude or humidity or temperature changes. You really end up with about 2 to 5 maps for different conditions and can further tweak the learned fuel settings. You can also further modify your WOT settings which are read differently than the basic map.
Took me a good 2 days on the dyno to get the first really good run and a couple settings I can use at different tracks. Taint for the faint of heart. Now if only I was fast enough to deserve my bike!
The race box has a degree of control you really probably don't want to mess with for a street bike. That and it's just not available without a race license.
Kinda interesting at the F-USA last weekend with a red flag, there was almost a half hour delay while oil was being cleaned up from the track and as soon as it became obvious that there was going to be some time available, OUT came the laptops right there with the tire warmers. They don't update themselves because they are run without oxygen sensors. |
Xbolt12
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 03:34 am: |
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Dobeck TFI works!
xbolt12 |
Outrider
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 09:30 am: |
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Slaughter...Thanks for the info. That is what I was thinking. Just needed confirmation. |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 02:11 pm: |
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Ok, why can't we use the ecm used by Triumph? the Sagem MC1000. From what I've found it is/was used by Triumph, Aprilia, Benelli, and even Excelsior-Henderson and Cannondale. So it has the capability to be used with a V-twin. Check out here http://www.optimum-power.com/ this company is selling the Sagem as a stand alone!!!(looks like they were the support for Cannondale) What sensors/controls does the Buell ECM have? O2, MAP, IAC, IAT?? I'm pretty sure the Buell doesn't use a MAP sensor. How many of the sensors are industry standard equipment and could be used with the Sagem ecm?? Could we have a conversion harness made to adapt the factory plugs to the Sagem ECM?? Also to see a way to tune the Sagem go here http://www.tuneboy.com.au/ or look around on Optimum's page. I especially like this quote from the FAQ section "Cannondale and OPTIMUM have partnered to introduce the first customer programmable ignition and fuel injection system on production motorcycles and ATVs starting with the 2002 model year." Maybe Buell could take a hint, even though Cannondale went under, it's not because they had a inferior product. Ditch the DDFI!! or give us the power to program!!
Thx Brad |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 07:37 pm: |
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Ok, why can't we use the ecm used by Triumph?
There is no need to re-invent the wheel. As has been addressed multiple times in this thread already there are plenty of fueling options you can purchase to accomadate whatever engine mods you wish to make.
No offense intended, but your suggestion to adapt this ECM to a Buell combined with your belief that the actual ECM needs to be reprogrammable to obtain proper performance leads me to believe you have alot to learn about modern fuel injection, my young grasshopper.
The solutions for making a Buell XB series faster than you can possibly use are readily available. I have no doubt the XB will smoke the triple in the twisties, but if you really need it to smoke the triple in a straight line the parts are out there and available, and for quite a bit less than it costs to try to do the same to a triple. So what if the triple's injection is programmable from the factory. The Buell is BUILDABLE from the factory. You wanna tinker? You have infinitely more choices with the Buell than you do with the triple.
But I guess if you can't see that by now you really do need to hurry up and buy the Triumph before the riding season winds down. |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:25 pm: |
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No offense intended, but your suggestion to adapt this ECM to a Buell combined with your belief that the actual ECM needs to be reprogrammable to obtain proper performance leads me to believe you have alot to learn about modern fuel injection, my young grasshopper
Offense taken  grasshopper
How many custom chips have you taken the time to develop? I have done a few for GM's 7749 ECM. I have a great understanding of what's involved.
Using an external "black box" to increase injector pulse width is, imho, A HACK!
Instructing the ECM to increase the injector pulse width is the correct way to approach things.
Most modern ECMs use whats called a "block learn" function, this ability to compensate for rich/lean conditions can be disrupted by the use of a "black Box"
Custom mapping of the fuel curve is the proper way to achive a system operating the way it was designed to.
Why then do these products exist
http://www.fuelairspark.com/
http://go.mrgasket.com/Brands.aspx?BrandID=8&brandselection=1
http://www.aempower.com/default.asp
Fully adjustable, programmable ECMs, who needs those?? Hell why don't we all start using carburetors?!?!
Sure black boxes exist in the automotive aftermarket which increase injector pulse width vs rpm. These devices are much cheaper than a programmable ECM, but don't offer the flexibility or options a reprogrammable ECM does. According to Optimum http://www.optimum-power.com/ their system for the Cannondale has the ability to switch between three different calibrations, on the fly, how about one for street or track, low octane, race gas, etc etc....
Why am I getting so much resistance here? I guess people don't realize what they're missing, maximum performance, improved ridability, and so on...
I'm starting to understand why this product for the Buell doesn't exist, lack of demand.
Thx Brad
PS: Iam going to put money down to order my '05 speed triple next payday, shouldn't expect delivery until March/April. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:01 pm: |
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It does exist... in many forms. Look harder. |
Static
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 11:19 pm: |
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Why don't you just don your official Buell jacket and sit in front of your computer making motorcycle sounds. Make some adjustments and sound different.
Sure you have an understanding of fuel management systems, so what, you still refuse to understand ( from the plain english used by many owners here) why Buell does not install a "fully programable ecm" into their bikes.
They can't. It is not good business sense. It may lead to legal issues that a relatively small manufacturer really doesn't need.
People are really good at destroying something that is "fully adjustable" thanks to a curious inability to read and learn just what it is they are doing.
The lack of demand is only because there are not enough people who prefer to look at the sun through the window and hope the bike might just run "this time".
Why don't you just develop the ecm that apparantly the world is waiting for. See if it sells. See if you can make the bike better than the manufacturer. Here in Phoenix we do have to pass emissions, are you going to build an ecm that will pass? Or are you going to forget about that group. ( hint: most of the people, in the US, with the cash to buy something like this and not use it vary often will probably be in an area with emissions testing) Are you just going to market to the hoards of racers fielding Buells. Sounds like a profitable strategy.
I am all for finding out how this box in particular works, but lets be realistic about it.
It's not the manufacturers problem.
Buy something else. |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:25 am: |
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I don't expect Buell to market their bikes with a "fully programmable ecm" but I do expect the aftermarket to. Does Triumph market Tuneboy? NO! But Harley does sell the tools to reflash an ECM through their Screamin' Chicken parts. Do you think the "race" ECM is simply used on the racetrack by those who purchase it?? Why do you think it says race use only on the side?? Because it isn't "emissions legal" and to limit their liability. Small manufacturer??? Yeah, 98% owned by the largest American motorcycle maker.
I just am disappointed that there isn't a way to reprogram the factory, or that no one offers a "plug-n-play" replacement adjustable ECM. If I won the lottery, you're damn sure I'd market it, and I'm sure plenty would want to buy it.
Thx Brad}
(Message edited by kbbeckius on September 26, 2004) |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 07:29 am: |
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Offense taken grasshopper
Sounds like a personal problem to me...
How many custom chips have you taken the time to develop? I have done a few for GM's 7749 ECM. I have a great understanding of what's involved.
Typical engineering/code hacking type...thinks that because he grinds out mapping code for a prom he's got it all figured out. I, on the other hand, haven't developed a single chip for anything. Instead, I worked with and lived with the mistakes in the maps developed by your type for 20 + years. O2 hunting and surging, cold start/flooding issues, "rotten egg" smell (excess NOx) due to excess combustion temperatures, burned valves, etc. I was the dude who had to explain why I couldn't legally fix it and the customer was going to have to live with the way their car ran, after I'd spent several hours in labor to make sure nothing else was malfunctioning.
Now I know exactly why you want a programmable ECM. You are afraid the Buell DDFI is plagued with the same kinds of mapping problems. In the car biz we used to joke about Chrysler's "map of the week" for the 2.0 dohc engine, back in the mid '90's. They came out with so many revisions to try to make it run correctly we couldn't even keep track of them all. Well, contrary to your beliefs Buell actually did a pretty darn good job with DDFI implementation. Those who bitch about it must have little to no frame of reference. It is among the best performing injection systems I've ever experienced on a motorcycle. It doesn't need the maps massaged, screwed with, or re-written. If you want to hop the bike up, simply add a cheap controller and dial in a little more fuel. It's easy, safe, and it works! I ask again, why try to reinvent the wheel?
The Triumph will make a good bike for you. Ride safe, enjoy it, but don't ask us how to replace a piston after your home mapping melts it.
I'd love to continue this discussion, but I'm off to Arkansas to pick up my new bike. Any chance you can help me write a new map for my new V-Strom? I don't own it yet, hell, I haven't even ridden it, but I'm sure there must be SOMETHING wrong with the mapping  |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 01:12 pm: |
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Instead, I worked with and lived with the mistakes in the maps developed by your type for 20 + years. O2 hunting and surging, cold start/flooding issues, "rotten egg" smell (excess NOx) due to excess combustion temperatures, burned valves, etc.
Hey, you forgot "chuggles" I always thought that was a interesting made up word to describe a drivability problem.
Ah, a tech, you should then realize what a compromise factory calibrations are. These calibrations have to work in all situations, but they don't. It's like things that are "one size fits all", it should be, "one size sorta fits some". In some situations they can barely compensate for differences in manufacturing tolerances (why do you think the mfgrs came up with block learn and closed loop systems, if an ecm was precisely tuned to an engine on a dyno this wouldn't be necessary, this would be very cost prohibitive however.) I agree the stock ECM calibrations, are good for what they are, and on a stock bike shouldn't pose a problem, but what about after aftermarket parts are added, what then? Adjustments to the fuel and spark curves would be necessary.
Well, contrary to your beliefs Buell actually did a pretty darn good job with DDFI implementation.
How many updates have their been for the DDFI ECM? I honestly don't know, I imagine there has been some though, and think I read about some dealer reflash after the XBs came out.
I don't seem to be the only one with this issue (Although the bike I test rode did seem to have an off idle "hole" here are some of the more recent posts on the board....
Xb12r race ECM hole at 4k
The solution for pinging
Ping....
Race kit sluggishness
Lean condition with stock ECM
and on, and on....
If adjustment of the ECM maps were possible, these problems could be addressed. Fuel could be added, timing could be removed, etc.. All I'm asking for is an easier way to make the needed changes that could make the bike run better, without using the "black box" approach.
And I'm not saying that the Triumph is perfect, from what I read their earlier speed triples were some of the worst efi calibrations. I'm saying it's better to have the ability to fix it, than live with a problem.
Thx Brad |
Static
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 08:30 pm: |
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Are you just arguing with a spec sheet in hand? You claim to have experience with GM, but how much? What did you do and what did you accomplish? A little background would be helpful. (If for no other reason than to prove that you do have the knowledge and experience to back up your statements) This has gone from being about why there is no alternative ECM (and there is one for licensed racers apparently) to a statement of personal belief that without a "fully programmable ECM" there is no possible way to extract the maximum amount of power from an engine.
Why is this so important? |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 09:41 pm: |
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I have experience with GM's '7749 ECM, because I happen to have 3 vehicles that use it. The '7749 is a derivative of the ECM used in the tuned port F-body/Corvette, it was used in early Quad4 powered cars, as well as the turbo Sunbird, and the Syclone and Typhoon. I own 2 '92 typhoons, and a '93. The '7749 is unique in that it controls a forced induction engine, and came from the factory with a 2 bar map sensor (although there is a code hack which allows use of a 3 bar map sensor). This ECM is not flashable, and is one of the last used before flashable ECMs became widespread. There is software available on the 'net such as promgrammer (freeware) and Tunercat which allow changes to the chip's calibration. With one of these programs and a chip burner (although now there are some adapters which will emulate the ROM and allow tuning "on the fly", and once you are satisfied the binary file can be dumped to a flash chip in the adapter), unlimited time and access to a dyno is helpful. Actually it's a never ending process, you can always find something thats needs refinement. Yes, there are those who have blown up their engines using calibrations too radical, go slowly and keep track of your changes.
I simply inquired/stated that there was not a reprogrammable ECM, and questioned why, because it is causing me to question purchasing a Buell. I believe many have given their opinion and answered the question.
There is a Racer ECM which is programmable, but has no "learning" functions and is therefore not very versatile
There is not currently a way to reprogram the factory ECM.
"black box" devices are good enough for most people
There isn't sufficient demand for an aftermarket ECM.
Thx Brad
(Message edited by kbbeckius on September 26, 2004) |
Trenchtractor
| | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 09:59 pm: |
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(Knowing grin, quietly chuckles to himself...)
Funny how people seem so polarised on the ECM issue... Sure, I've had my problems, I've made comments like 'I wanna carby' and 'I need programmable EFI'...
More than one person has said 'God I love this bike, it's just a shame about the DDFI', while others just think DDFI is the greatest thing without a MAP sensor.
What's my point??? Well, I was under the impression that the DDFI was smarter than it really is. I was convinced that the ECM could learn pretty much any bolt on bit you gave the bike (an exageration, but you get my point)... I was a little green on the whole HD/Buell marketing plan and lowered my usually rather suspicious guard and believed what I was told.
My mistake.
What have I learnt??
1. The Stock ECM is great, on a totally stock bike that needs to pass emissions. But then who wants a stock bike?? Obviosly those that need to pass emissions... Buell MUST make a comitment to those. Get over that bit, it'll never change.
2. In Australia, the race ECM map is wrong. PERIOD. Fuel is wrong, advance is too aggressive.
3. The advance curve of the stock ECM is as aggressive as we need (here in Australia), but fuel is the problem - IF YOU ARE MAKING BASIC MODIFICATIONS. The slightest change in air flow has the A/F curve all over the shop (I've paid for the dyno time to prove it).
Again you ask, 'My point??'
Well, if you are buying off the shelf bolt on go fast goodies, like mufflers and air cleaners or even just pulling out your snorkel, you will need to adjust your fuel delivery. The Techlusions Stealth TFi is the answer. It's cheap and if you're the type of guy (or gal) who likes to do it yourself but not a trained buell technician with access to DigiTech it's probably within your realm of ability and understanding.
If, on the other hand, you are embarking on a mamoth project machine like M1, then you'll be understanding a lot more of what's required, or you'd be holding enough cash to pay someone who does.
In either case you'll be looking at aftermarket fully programmable EFI computer with laptop interface and a weeks worth of dyno time to sort it out... Hell, there are plenty of computers out there that will do the job and if you are doing the mods that would dictate the need for a full programmable then you'd have the budget for the EFI too. Sounds like you'd have a race budget, then, probably a race licence... So you'd be able to buy the programmable race ECM!!!
Or if you're as good as you say you are, then build a MegaSquirt or similar, adapt it, then sell the Buell specific plug and play kit to us...
And you know what, the less people on Buells, the more I stand out... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 01:21 am: |
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There are other products that are less expensive than the mega-squirt. I have only researched the mega-squirt but I'll start in on the others soon.
As far as the mammoth project machine ... It'll be a while. LOTS of learning to do and lots of money to save. I have to rebuild a 351C first as well. |
Static
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:46 am: |
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kbbeckius-
thanx for the background info. I understand a little better what your saying, and though I may not entirely agree, I apologize for earlier comments.
while were at it. What does it take to develop a system like this with the kind of self-learn features that would be desirable? Is it possible to adapt another more common ECM to this application? |
Opto
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:21 am: |
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Ok, why can't we use the ecm used by Triumph?
That's a really good question. If it can run a triple and a 90 degree V-twin maybe it can also run a 45 degree V-twin if the tuneboy software allows you to select engine config. This is definite research material. Other issues may be coolant temp vs CHT and triggering. |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:31 am: |
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This thread has really gone somewhere I hadn't anticipated. It's my fault really, I started it with my being frustrated and angry, and I got the kind of responses that equaled my attitude.
I'm not some kind of EFI guru, or an electrical engineer (although I did attend the University of Colorado for 3 years with the intention of being a mechanical engineer) I am someone with a good amount of knowledge about how EFI works and have tinkered and tuned some custom EFI calibrations. I had just hoped that someone had "cracked" the DDFI code, and made it possible to tune the thing, or if someone had come up with an acceptable substitute. In my opinion the "black box" approach is not an acceptable manner in which to solve the recalibration problem, just a band-aid. I realize that in the Buell community that Power commander and Techilusion, are the only game in town, and that's why some people are inclined to defend their use, and in many situations they probably work well.
Many of you may not understand the difference between an ECM which can be recalibrated and devices like the Power commander or Techilusion.
I came up with this story as an analogy to better explain how these approaches differ..(this story is not meant to be racist or anything, it's just a reflection of our society)
John is a contractor that builds houses. John has an opportunity to build some custom homes. Manuel works for John, he is a good worker and an excellent carpenter. Manuel only speaks broken english, and John can't speak Spanish. Manuel does a good job on the regular homes they build, but John can't explain to Manuel what he needs him to do when they start building the custom homes. So, John considers his options, he could either hire a translator, or hire someone else. Well John can't afford to hire a translator and doesn't want the hassle of an extra employee, and if John did hire someone to replace Manuel, he'd have to go through alot of trouble getting the new hire trained, whereas Manuel knows whats going on.
So what are John's options?
Learn Spanish, or teach Manuel English
Hire a Translator so Manuel can do what John needs.
Hire someone else.
How does this relate?
What are our options?
Learn a manner in which to reprogram the DDFI (if possible)
Use a "black box" device
Find a suitable replacement ECM
I would prefer the first approach, (no I don't speak Spanish ) because as a Buell owner you got DDFI free with your purchase of the motorcycle.
I have had difficulty finding any info about the DDFI system. I would like to get a group effort going to gather any info available to determine the feasibility of recalibrating the DDFI ECM. This approach could end up with a product that would consist of an interface cable and some software, if it made it to market I would expect it to cost less than 500$. I envision it would be like TuneBoy http://www.tuneboy.com.au/ and the software package would include a graphical editor, "dashboard" sensor data display, and a datalogger. If there is no way to reprogram the DDFI ECM then a "plug and play" replacement could probably be found, but I guess it would cost between 1000-1500$ and would have no fuel/spark calibrations to start out with.
**Trenchtractor- would mind calling TuneBoy? The guy is in your neck of the woods. I have read he is up to his a** in work, but maybe could find the time to help with a similar product for the Buell DDFI, Please!! ** harass these guys too.. http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/
Please continue your positive input on my new thread, we need to try and gather as much info as possible about the DDFI system. I do have contacts at a company which may be able to develop the product http://www.turbo-link.com/ I was at their open house when they debuted their product for the Typhoon, and a friend lent them his truck for beta testing.
Please see my new thread, and keep the chatter constructive
Even though I may still buy a Triumph, Mr. Buell will always be someone which I admire for his non-conformity.
Thx Brad
(Message edited by kbbeckius on September 28, 2004) |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:35 am: |
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Opto, You must have been posting when I was. What excited me was that the Sagem ECM was used on the Excelcior Henderson bikes!! Jeez if that doesn't almost match the engine config. I really think we need to see if the factory ECM can be reconfigured first, that would be the easiest manner.
Thx Brad |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 01:41 pm: |
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I fail to see your point... There are many aftermarket EFI controllers available that will work with nearly any engine configuration. Some have spark controllers, some don't. I would get one w/o so I could use a multiple spark system. There are many solutions that are a lot less expensive than your stated costs above. Look at a mega-squirt. It's a little pricey if you ask me (even though it's a bargain) but it would work wonders. Also, check out Crane's HI4-E ignition system.
With those two products (or whatever EFI you care to use... do some research) you would have a completely programmable system that can actually have a dyno setting and a cruise setting and heck, even a third aggressive riding setup if you choose. They will work with any modifications you care to throw at them. The mega-squirt is $175 (a little pricey compared to some others, but VERY capable) and the Crane HI-4E costs a couple hundred as I recall.
Problem solved. And cheap too ...
(Message edited by M1Combat on September 28, 2004) |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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I was referring to the estimated price of a "plug and play" ready to go product, using a motorcycle type ECM. I found a company that has an upgrade for the Cannondale bikes (it was an upgrade from the non flashable Sagem MC500 to the MC1000) http://www.rsperformance.net/ they offer a kit with about everything to do it for $942. I'm sure it could be done cheaper, I was estimating the cost based on what I found mostly aftermarket automotive ECMs, like Accel or Speedpro (FAST). I really believe now that there must be a way to reflash the stock ECM using a product like TuneBoy.
Thx Brad |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 03:50 pm: |
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That may be true, but I still fail to see why one wouldn't just get an aftermarket EFI controller and spark controller. |
Starter
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 08:49 pm: |
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What sort of money is the new techlusion (Dobeck Perfomance) box going for in the states?? |
Trenchtractor
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 12:31 am: |
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Brad,
The techlusion will retail around the $400 mark here in Aus (can't be more specific, they haven't arrived yet)... I hope to have one shortly to test on the dyno in my quest to avoid the ping... Email me for more 'local' info...
brad@themuell.com or
mcrisk@bigpond.com |
Static
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 02:07 am: |
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I know it's a little late but, opto, an ECM won't know the difference between an inline, 90 degree, or 45 degree 2 cylinder motor. there is still only one power stroke per crankshaft revolution.
Where might I start looking for specs on the Sagem ECM? |
Opto
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 06:03 am: |
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Static it also fires the sparks so it does need to know when to do that, if it was fuel only then no prob. Maybe you'll find something on www.tuneboy.com.au for specs on the sagem, I haven't had time to do enough looking, but one web page said it uses TPS and that would put me off a bit, I think a MAP sensor is definitely the way to go. |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:50 am: |
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Probably the reason that many motorcycles, especially Buell don't use a MAP sensor is that it requires a smooth intake vacumn signal. An erratic intake signal causes some serious havoc for a speed density ECM, probably one of the reasons (besides cost and complexity) for using an Alpha N system.
Thx Brad |
Static
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 02:07 am: |
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Opto,
Basic spark timing is based on crankshaft revolutions, not where the cylinders are in relation to each other. A two cylinder engine will always have one power stroke per 360 degrees of crankshaft revolutions. divide 720 degrees (4 strokes) by the number of cylinders and you have the number of power strokes per cycle. An example would be any v-8 or an old inline 8: 720\8= 90 degrees. Every 90 degrees there is one power stroke.
Sorry to get away from the topic.
thanks for the link. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 02:24 am: |
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That only works if it's a 90 degree V8. If it's a 45 degree V8, then it goes 45 then another 135. Our engines are timed by a cam sensor. The cams rotate at 1/2 the speed of the crank.
On our V-twins there is a spark, then 405 degrees later another, then only 315 degrees after that is the next. All of that makes no difference though, because we use a Cam sensor. Multiply those by two and you have the degrees of cam movement between spark events. One of the things that makes our situation a little more complex is that we have only one crank journal. Both piston move up and down at the same time (45 degrees from each other anyway).
You can't just tell an ECM "Hey, we have a V-Twin", you have to tell it we have a 45 degree V-twin w/ only one journal. |
Static
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 02:47 am: |
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Ok I understand a little better, my fault. Where should I look for more info on theory relating to 45 degree or other odd angle designs?
thanks for the clarification. |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 04:09 am: |
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M1 you answered that well.
Static, try Google.
Kb, most V-twins using MAP have a small orifice in the MAP line 0.016" - 0.024" to smooth out the pulses at idle. Also some ecm's will allow the user to select TPS or MAP at idle (MoTec I think). Here's a link to a cheap programmable ecm for the HD twin cam 88, could be interesting if it is adaptable to the Buell...
http://www.daytona-twintec.com/TCFI.html |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 11:38 am: |
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Interesting how the Daytona system solves the problem we were just discussing -The TCFI solves tuning problems with highly modified engines. Competitive “band-aid” products that interface to the Delphi® controller still rely on speed-density fuel control. Long duration/high overlap camshafts wreak havoc with manifold pressure - especially at idle and cruise RPM. Speed-density based fuel control simply can’t cope. Converting back to Alpha-N  ?
I would like another approach, like you mentioned the ability to ignore the map sensor under a certain RPM. Actually if you do enough tuning you can get an engine to idle smoother by ignoring the O2 sensor as well, no "hunting".
Thx Brad
(Message edited by kbbeckius on October 02, 2004) |
Opto
| | Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 01:22 am: |
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Yes it is Alpha-N but it is programmable for fuel and ignition and is cheap. If it is compatible with the Buell TPS and CPS then it would be a relatively easy installation, and then we would have our programmable ecm.
I would much prefer a speed/density system but there are also advantages in keeping it simple and reversible. |
Kbbeckius
| | Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 02:07 pm: |
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Opto did you see this on the other thread?(DDFI Project)
http://www.nhpower.de/sites/e_fuel_systeme.html
Yeah, sensor compatability is the main issue.
Thx Brad |
Craigster
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 10:16 pm: |
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Actually, the cylinder layout is very important. If the engine is not firing at even intervals (45 deg twin) then the EFI must be able to average pulse input. Else it thinks the engine is spining 6000 rpm, then 300 rpm, back to 6000 then 300...it makes for odd fueling.
The only way around it is if the ignition puts out a separate square wave just for a tack or some other rpm based accessory. |
Opto
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 01:47 am: |
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Quite a few aftermarket ecm's have an "odd-fire" capability which gets around the problem for V-twins, it averages the ignition input pulses. |
Craigster
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - 01:45 pm: |
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Static had posted that an ECM does not care if an engine is V-Twin inline four or what have you. The power pulse is still once per 760 deg.
True on the power pulse (unless wasted spark) however odd fire engines need ECMs that interpret their sensors correctly.
My unit will work with odd fire but does not require it on my Buell as I am running on the square wave output from the ignition controller. |
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