| Author | Message | ||
     Budo |
So if the fuell in the frame, oil in the swingarm, and the perimeter brake are so great, why hasen't anyone else done it? | ||
| M1combat |
The IL4 engines are too wide. | ||
| Blake |
That pesky thing called a "patent"? If BMW's Telelever is so great, why hasn't anyone else done it? If Ducati's Desmodromic valvetrain is so great, why hasn't anyone else done it? What is your point, I mean other than to try to put-down Buell? If you are not a Buell enthusiast, why are you here? | ||
| Roc |
Patent.  | ||
| M1combat |
From what I hear... The way the patent on the ZTL brake works is that if another manufacturer mounts a perimeter brake on a rim that is too weak (read too light) to mount a conventional disc setup they have to pay royalties to Buell. It's the weight savings benefit that is patented (along with the mounting system I would guess). | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Its the mounting system as well that is patented. Its the only one that has been done in a freefloating manner. All other designs are hard mounted to the rims. Its also the only one that resides within the rim center, the other desings don't they ride outside the rim and can leave the rotor out past the edge of the tire. | ||
| Midknyte |
So if the fuell in the frame, oil in the swingarm, and the perimeter brake are so great, why hasen't anyone else done it?   | ||
| Grndskpr |
If Ducati's Desmodromic valvetrain is so great, why hasn't anyone else done it? BMW did and the perimeter brake are so great, why hasen't anyone else done it? Honda did(or so i have been told, i have yet to back that up however) What is your point, I mean other than to try to put-down Buell? Maybe he is just looking for advatages and disadvatages on both sides, maybe he wants to find out if its worth the cost, or maybe just looking for more info, no need to jump up and look for troll bait Some times people just want answers, and come to what they think may be the best source, maybe it best sometimes to just answer the questions and give out the real answers, just incase his/her dealer has none R | ||
| Whodom |
Grndskpr- I never heard of a BMW with desmodromic valves. Got any details? I know Mercedes built quite a few cars with desmo valve trains, for racing IIRC. | ||
| Johncr250 |
I don`t necessarily think that the fuel in frame and oil in swingarm are the best for all bikes. They were designed to work around the very large HD sportster motor and do work very well. The perimeter brakes used on Buells also are state of the art and work excellent, but there still are twin disk setups on other bikes that work just as good if not better. And Blake, relax alittle! | ||
| Johncr250 |
Buell is just finding new and inovative ways to build motorcycles and thats a good thing for the entire motorcycle industry. | ||
| Budo |
Johncr250 may be onto something there. | ||
| Brucelee |
"I don`t necessarily think that the fuel in frame and oil in swingarm are the best for all bikes. They were designed to work around the very large HD sportster motor and do work very well" I don't BELIEVE that last statement is true. IT seems to me that lowering and centering the weight in the bike will work for most applications. I do know I have had bikes with the weight "up top" that were not fun to handle at all, esp after filling up at the gas station. Very tippy, no? | ||
| Glitch |
why hasen't anyone else done it? Mass production of new parts make it expensive. You could ask why Buells are more expensive and get the same answer. | ||
| Bomber |
fuel in frame has been done before (long ago, see Art of the Motorcycle), but not nearly as well -- oilbag/frame member combos are too numerous to list, same idea . . . perimeter brakes have also been done before, but not on proddie bikes, I believe (with faith that my error will be highlighted ;-} ) lowering the cg is good, to a point . . . . if it gets much lower than the roll center, it gets tough to turn (see numerous 50s races, lota of innovation from england to make up for antedeluvian engine designs, also, see Ilse of Man TT racer in the same time frame, as well as endurance races in 50s, 60s and early 70s -- drug usage clearly got to some indie bike designers) very little truely new under the sun -- taking a good concept, making it producable, and selling it, however, is another story -- not much of that going on . . . . Buell is an exception in that regard | ||
| Hootowl |
The oil tank was relocated to the swingarm so they could shorten the wheelbase. They didn't set out to build a bike with a fuel tank frame. It just turned out that way. | ||
| M1combat |
"The perimeter brakes used on Buells also are state of the art and work excellent, but there still are twin disk setups on other bikes that work just as good if not better. " For braking maybe... But the conventional setups (even single rotor/caliper setups) are a great deal heavier. Unsprung mass is our enemy. The ZTL's primary purpose (aside from stopping  ) is to reduce a LOT of that unsprung weight. The ZTL brake is the primary reason that the bike handles mid-corner bumps so well. | ||
| Budo |
Some of you guys are mighty defensive when it comes to these bikes. Some people like them, some don't. Why would that be a problem? As far as what am I doing here. See my profile, I have paid the price of admission. | ||
| Glitch |
Why would that be a problem? It's a Buell Enthusiast BBS. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
That makes sense!! | ||
| Jeremyh |
while i do believe that all the cool things buell has done to the bike do indeed have great performance values there is always this little thing people forget. COOL=CASH MARKETING MARKETING MARKETING!!!!!! | ||
| Blake |
This is a Buell enthusiasts' site. More to consider. A wet sump engine has no need of a separate oil reservoir. Putting fuel in the frame also demands solving the problem of maintaining frame/fuel reservoir integrity in a crash. Buell solved that problem in a very innovative way. Bomber, We are talking production bikes here, are we not? What Mike (Wycked) said on the front brake. Johncr250, No need to worry yourself on my account; I am quite relaxed. Did you notice that Steve (Budo) has not answered my question; he only attempted to justify his Buell put-downs. He's a man on a mission to deride Buell motorcycles. He is definitely not here as a Buell enthusiast. And though I sympathize with Steve concerning his unfortunate experience with his S1, I wish he and others like him would move on with their lives and focus on things more positive. What a concept eh? | ||
| Spiderman |
They didn't set out to build a bike with a fuel tank frame. It just turned out that way. Um they intended it from the start. The fuel in the frame concept ( the first version) was applied for patent in 1989 and approved in 1991. The frame that sits atop the XB platform is the new and updated version. It have the integrated saftey features. Other people are building concept bikes and Buell is producing them for sale. as for a dual disk system being better than a ZTL. Only if it is a dual dist six piston system. sincerly, Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man | ||
| Budo |
"What is your point, I mean other than to try to put-down Buell?" Oh, that question, I just wanted a take on everyone's opinion. That's it. | ||
| Spiderman |
Don't take it too personally Budo there is only one opinion on this board and it isn't yours if you catch my drift. | ||
| Bomber |
Blake -- right as rain, I believe I also stated that -- designin Buell's case, a number of innovativer features were put together on a production (proddie) bike, for the first time, although the concepts and applications have seen the light of day on one-offs and specials before . . . no dishonor in that as for what's so great, and why everyone ain't doin it, someone has to be first, yes? otherwise, numbers 2 through x got no one to copy! | ||
| Grndskpr |
Don't take it too personally but Only if it is a dual dist six piston system What if any sport bikes come with less than 6 anymore???? Also drop me a line Spidey, i have a few questions new email is grndskpr at gmail dot com Looking to keep the bots out of the new account R | ||
| Spiderman |
The only sport bike that comes with dual Six disks stock are the Hyabusa and I belive some Ducs and Apps E-mail will be sent in a sec. | ||
| Blake |
Tony, "Don't take it too personally Budo there is only one opinion on this board and it isn't yours if you catch my drift." I'm not sure I'm clear on your assertion. Please explain. What specifically is the "only one opinion on this board" to which you refer? Pretty sure the dual disk dual 4-piston caliper brakes on the repliracers are a more powerful than the big Buell single perimeter disk with 6 piston caliper system. Each configuration will easily send the rear wheel catapulting over the driver's head if applied in ham fisted fashion. On the street the massive reduction in front suspension unsprung mass is a huge achievement. On a smooth race track it might not be so advantageous. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Blake I can say that I much prefered the control of the ZTL over the dual Radial 4 piston brakes on the ZX6RR I had. The ZTL has a much more linear feel where as the Radials were soft on the bite then jumped up in strength way to quickly for my taste, often coming up on lock up much sooner then expected. |
