| Author | Message | ||
     Zray |
So here's the deal. I have installed the Race Kit (with Drummer can) and had my TPS reset. The bike actually ran ok before the TPS reset. It clearly wasn't "right" but it was driveable. The tech at the dealer brought the bike out for a test ride after he reset the TPS. WTF is a test ride needed for a 15 minute job with a handheld scantool? Any way, when he gets back (after what seemed like an eternity) he checks the TPS voltage with the engine off, key on, and it's 5.5 volts. He says he should turn it up a bit cause they seem to run better if it's at 5.7-5.8. He takes the bike back in the shop and comes out 30 minutes later saying he had to pull the airbox cover to re-zero the idle speed adjuster and that's why it was taking so long. Sooo 1hr45min after they take my bike in I get it back. Pay my half hour shop charge ($32.50) and set out to leave. When I started the bike up in the parking lot (it's still hot) the idle is at ~700RPM. C'mon... I hate having a dealer working on anything cause they almost always mess something up. I figure he only messed up the idle speed and I would fix that when I got home. The bike ran ok on the way home, but seemed less powerful than before the TPS reset. Fast forward 150 miles after a weekend ride. About 15 minutes into the ride the bike started to surge at around 80+ mph and 4000+ RPM. I thought it was just in my head at first, but by the end of the day I was cursing the bike, the punk kid at the dealer, and anyone else within earshot cause the bike was clearly stumbling bad anytime I tried to accelerate briskly with a few RPM's. I looked up the TPS reset procedure today and found that the voltage should be 5.2-5.6 not 5.7-5.8 like the kid said. Could this be the problem or did they mess up something worse. Thanks for the help. Ray | ||
| Buckinfubba |
if it is set at 5.8 it should be be idleing higher than 700 rpm. it ain't set right. period. they have revised it. it did use to be 5.8 but now its a starting point of 5.2 to 5.6 then once test ridden yes it needs to be, then you don't need to see the voltage you just adjust the idle to 1050 to 1150 rpm. the stumble tells me it ain't set right plus the idle speed. if he had to take off the air box, the cable has a sleeve on it that can get wound up and yes you do need to take off the box to fix it. it can happen , but the main thing is it ain't set right. | ||
| Coolice |
My XB9R used to do that and after I changed to the XB12 airbox cover--smooooth all the way to the rev limiter. Try that too. Its only a $30 something part. | ||
| Zray |
Coolice I already had the XB12 air box cover installed (check my profile) I just didn't mention it. Thanks for the info Brian. Any ideas on what I should say to the dealer to ensure they get it right this time? | ||
| Freyke |
I had/have the same problem... try switching brands of gas...make sure you are running 93 Octane... It hated citgo but runs fine on exxon or AMOCO... | ||
| Midknyte |
Dunno if you guys know or not, but Shell and Citgo were selling some f'd up gas year. Too much sulfur (or something) content - was messing up sensors on cars. | ||
| Kkrider |
Plain and simple, the tech blew your TPS reset/zero. He basically fooled with it, took it for a spin, realized something was wrong, gave you some lame explanation for what it was and fooled with it some more. All the while not having a clue! You guys are getting the throttle plate degree setting mixed up with the ECM reference voltage (5 volt, constant) or TPS sensor voltage(variable). The TPS is just a variable resistor as you know. It takes the 5 volt ECM reference voltage and resists it to as much as 0.5-1.5 volts at closed throttle to as little as 3.9-4.9 volts at wide open throttle. The ECM is programed to read this voltage as throttle plate opening and supply fuel amounts accordingly. The air box doesn't have to be removed for the TPS zero either. They just hook up the break-out box to probe the circuits for voltage values and if it's not right they use the scanalizer to reset it. To check TPS voltage you can back your idle all the way off and with a VOHM meter back probe the V/Y, violet/yellow #2 wire at the gray ECM connector. It would help a lot if you have a service manual, but the voltage should increase smoothly from fully closed to fully open, per stated values. Unfortunately, once it has been reset this will only tell you if the TPS is any good. You can't adjust it yourself, as it's fixed and has to be done electronically, via the scanalizer. My guess is he did the reset witout the the throttle stop backed all the way off and now you're bike is running lean! What do your plugs look like? (Message edited by KKRider on August 03, 2004) (Message edited by KKRider on August 03, 2004) | ||
| Freyke |
Hmmm... If the TPS was set wrong, then I would guess it should be wrong all the time?... that is, the bike should run like poo all the time, not just on rare occasions as mine does... Typically its noticable soon after filling up with brand-X petrol... Its seems more likely to be a ECM mapping problem at the 4000RPM crossover point... what ever that "point" is.. but there is definitly about a 400RPM window that on occasion acts up... My bike typically will act lean (popping and pipping) rather than rich accross the entire RPM band when is going through this little "fit".... I've asked my dealer to check into this occasional problem and they have checked with the factory, which they say claims no trend with this illeged problem... What say you? | ||
| Kkrider |
Yes, Wrong all the time. "like poo all the time", no, not necessarily, as it would depend on how wrong the wrong was. Remember, the TPS voltage resistance is variable and constant/linear, so a change/reset moves the whole curve up or down, just like moving your timing plate would move the whole ignition curve up or down! If this change shifts the curve to lean side it may not really be noticeable until the motor is trying to recover from a drop in the torque curve, ect. I believe Ray said it had less power overall, so that would make my point, right? and some parts of the curve could be down right annoying. As for some parts of the curve being less than perfect, sure, the maps aren't perfect either, but that doesn't mean you can't optimize things as much as possible with a proper TPS zero! P.S. I meant to say LEAN, not rich. Also, the techs last step in the zero is to verify the throttle plate angle on the scanalizer screen. If this was done and the TPS set correctly it would have idled above 1000 RPM. Try asking the tech to set your TPS at the high side of the 0.5-1.5 closed voltage spec. next time, as that will slightly richen up the whole curve. (Message edited by KKRider on August 03, 2004) | ||
| Blake |
Sounds pretty likely to me that the TPS reset for the race ECM was boofed. | ||
| Freyke |
Henry, My bike typically idles at around 900RPM cold and rises to 1000-1050RPM when warmed up.... Which idle rpm are you referring to, cold or hot?... If there is a direct correlation to idle adjustment (cold to hot idle speeds), then I'll end up w/ an approx. "hot" idle of 1150.. This makes take-offs and partularly slow-downs rather annoying as the engine tends to hang in the upper RPMs when the base idle is that high... I know, I've been there!.. I wish the factory would take a look into this issue( 4000 RPM hesitation w/race ECM, K&N, and Pipe)... I don't think this an "unknown issue as claimed - because I've heard more than a few people with thier bikes in this configuration having this problem; either chronically or occasionally.... kk//kef | ||
| Jomomma |
THE 4000 RPM W/THE RACE ECM,K&N AND PIPE IS NOT UNIQUE TO YOU. MINE DOES THE SAME THING. IT IS WORSE WHEN COLD  | ||
| Opto |
I agree with Blake, doesn't sound right at all. | ||
| Slowby |
snap your throttle while looking at the values. if they change every time then the tp sensor has a problem. the test ride is just to see if the afv (air fuel value)has changed. when setting the tps i always turned the throttle back hard while resetting. this left zero at .2, just slightly open. zero is shoved closed. if your having a problem at a certian rpm i would look at the wires, plugs, and have the shop verify that it went zero. try ridding the bike at the same speed while maintaing no throttle movement and rpm under 3200. there is no hot idle only a timing advance during cold start up. 5.6 - 5.8 is common tp value after it is set. | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Go stick the old ECM back in and if it runs good.(which it should) Go back to that dealer and raise XXXX(a stink).........Later Charlie | ||
| Buckinfubba |
hey charlie hows it goin down there with ya. hope all is well | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Brian, what time is Golin supposed to be at your place? I will call once he gets there. | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Hey Bubba, Miss you big guy. Haven't stopped at Tilley's since you left,just doesn't seem the same. Got back into Flattrackin, bought a 600 Rotax/Knight frame (thing is a beast), running acouple weekends a month in SC & GA Hope you are doing well in Yankee land.....Later Charlie | ||
| Zray |
Update........ Took the bike back to the dealer and told them the problem I have had since the TPS reset. The bike didn't have a problem (4000+) on the way to the dealer this morning though. What gives? I didn't feel it was an intermittent issue the last time I rode the bike because I had stopped/shutdown the bike several times but the problem was back every time I started riding. I was riding in the mountains though, could that have exacerbated the problem? Any way, the tech (same guy as last time) said I shouldn't have had any problem with the bike. He said all "values" looked good except for the AFV which he said was at 98%. I'm hoping somebody can help me understand what he means by that. He said he re-zeroed the tps and reset the AFV(?). He told me to ride it and see how it runs. That's what I heard the last time, so we'll see. As far as some of the specific reccomendations some of you have referenced, I couldn't "supervise" what he was doing because they take the bike up this elevator into their shop. You can't go with your bike, or even see them working on it. The bike seemed ok on the way home, but I am going to take it for a semi-long ride tonight. The problem didn't present itself until the 2nd time I rode the bike when I first had the TPS reset. I'll let you guys know if it is any better this time. | ||
| Freyke |
Zray, You're describing the exact syptoms I have had on occasion (multiple TPS resests have been done too).... Like I've said before, I truly believe it's a firmware (map) issue within the ECM that needs to be addressed... It only becomes apparent when certain conditions within the combustion process are met.... What those parameters are I can't say as we can't get a look-see at the mapping code.... I can say in my experience the brand/formulation of gas "seems" to make a difference on whether I get the 4000RPM stumble or not....  | ||
| Buckinfubba |
The afv (air fuel value) is how the engine is doing in the combustion process. it has a range of about 15% on either side of 100 so there ain't nothing wrong there. it might be this I can't rmember thru all the reading but did the bike ever get ridden at a steady speed of about 3800 rpm for about 10 miles or so after you reset the tps. if not that could be it. and now it may have finally learned. but I still suspect the tech....there ain't nuthin wierd about a 98 AFV. absolutely nuthing. | ||
| Freyke |
Buckinfubba, Indeed, have have ridden at least 10 Miles at a steady (around 3800) RPM... And there really seems to be no rhym nor reason as to why or when it will act up... The only moderate correlation I can make is the gas formulation issue (and yes I always use 93 Octane).... I have also added octane booster on occasion and the bike did not demonstrate the hesitation when I added the octane booster... Just note that I've never had a pre-detonation issue - just grasping at straws was the only reason I tried the octane booster.... kk//kef | ||
| Slowby |
the air fuel value (afv) can only be reset to 100 and if it is changed then it has been read by the ecm. | ||
| Jomomma |
I am still having the exact same issue with my ECM. Im running the BUELL race ECM, K&N and Jardine combo. It sometimes sputters right at 4K. I cant figure out what makes it do it because it isnt all the time. I havent tried octane boost. I had the Jardine and K&N on with the stock ECM and it didnt do it so I know it has something to do with the race ECM. |
