| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/harley-davidson-ceo-out-at-struggling-motorcycle-maker/ Most interesting comment by former Buell/EBR platform manager on Twitter:  | ||
| Shoggin |
Anyone willing to ruin the livelihood of Americans, hurt a towns economy, and crush someones dreams, simply to avoid their own 'embarrassment' is a total POS. | ||
| Court |
That is an accurate statement. Erik Buell could have saved Harley-Davidson and put them at the top of the heap foe decades to come. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
He still could. They should offer him the job. (IMO the deal should include a huge signing bonus, an Iacocca/Chrysler sized stock deal, and a public apology from the board of HD for being so short-sighted.) | ||
| Court |
The same “pride” that caused them to shit in their corporate mess kit ....precludes that. But, you are dead accurate. Erik Buell has NEVER had more experience ....been more business savvy and smarter than he is today . He’s had his teeth kicked in a couple times and come back stronger on each occasion. His ability to attract the best of the best and focus people toward a common goal like lasers .... is, and remains, incredible. There are many of us who would answer the call no matter the pay, hours, challenges or adversity. Erik has a way of finding and cultivating amazing talent and amplifying their talents. Many of us take pride in our accomplishments ....not in what we have prevented others from achieving. However......The Harley-Davidson corporate mentality precludes any such opportunity. I can think of about 12 folks I could have sitting inJuneau next week who could turn that aircraft carrier AND be cheered by 80% of the folks at Harley-Davidson. Harley-Davidson had their chance ....it wasn’t a “long shot” it was a clear path and they screwed the pooch acting like snobs at a high screw prom. Let’ em swim in their own shit. Do I sound like I have a strong opinion?......hahahaha P. S. - Lest someone be unclear of my thoughts .... I need to say that Harley-Davidson is plum chuck full of good, dedicated and smart folks. What they lack is vision and leadership. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
There are a number of good folk on badweb whose "strong opinions" are entirely justified. Many good people had their lives and livelihood turned inside out by these corporate weenies. Typical corporate tactics are what got them in the fix they're in. They have lost their way and forgotten the primary product is embodiment of a passion, the stirring of the soul, and a feeling of fraternity. For the company to monetize those things, the leadership must share those passions. Or I might as well buy a Yamaha. A solid reliable cruiser with absolutely no soul. | ||
| Ahampton128 |
I wonder how many high up HD people from that era acknowledge how bad a decision killing/not selling Buell turned out to be? | ||
| Generalcuz |
It will be interesting to see how this effort by Impala will affect their road ahead with trying to rebrand. I believe Impala's emphasis has been on a return to the old, with a target of the boomers and older folks, per Impala. To me, this sounds like a strategy to maximize ROI. Not exactly a long term development strategy. That pattern is what continues to hurt HD. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
"I wonder how many high up HD people from that era acknowledge how bad a decision killing/not selling Buell turned out to be?" Per Court's comment, I doubt any would publicly acknowledge the mistake. If I heard the behind the scenes numbers correctly, it was a shutdown cost in excess of $150 million. Most involved in the decision to burn that much money would always try justify it somehow, rather than admit stupidity. " WE were up against the wall, we had no choice,.." etc. | ||
| Midknyte |
How does Impala, with just a two percent ownership in HD, wield any power? Ref https://www.rideapart.com/articles/407852/weekend- wtf-investor-harley-davidson-roots/ | ||
| Stevel |
I think Impala is correct. HD corporate has an abysmal record of innovation and acquisition. Their record is 100% failure of all foreign motorcycle manufacturing investments. That is really sad and very difficult to be 100% wrong all the time. You would think that at least sometimes luck would play its part. I know Court professes to have inside knowledge. I certainly cannot argue over that. I just don't know, but I am also certain these corporate errors go deeper than just the top level decision makers. There have been very serious engineering mistakes made at HD and they belong on some engineer's desk. The Helenikon engine design was bastardized by HD. Rotax is a very professional design house with 100's of engine design successes under their belt. The errors I have identified would normally never have been allowed by Rotax. Some engineer or engineers at HD is/are responsible for all those errors. My point is this poor decision making obviously goes far deeper into corporate culture and until this can be rooted out, HD needs to stick with their traditional product line. | ||
| Court |
For the record. . . .i have never professed “inside information” and specifically have non related to Harley-Davidson. I do have some personal opinions, as a business person, and I’ve watched some of the stupid shit HD has done over the last 10 years of trying to find themselves. I went from a time when I bought 9 Harley-Davidson in a year to the present where I wouldn’t keep one if they gave it to me. Impala, with 2% of the stock, has enough to get some attention and control but I am unconvinced they’ve got the vision or the players. An MBA ain’t gonna cut it here. | ||
| Blake |
Who was the other exec that campaigned against selling BMC? | ||
| Court |
I am dying to see HERO stuff it so far up Harley's ass they don't know what happened. | ||
| 1313 |
Holy Hell! So am I! Now where is that popcorn eating emoji?!?! | ||
| Crusty |
And some people don't believe in Karma... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Harley’s direction is about as consistent as a drunken sailor: 2010: Kill Buell, focus on “core customers”. 2015: We need innovation to attract new customers! Develop new engines, small displacement bikes, electric bike, street fighter, power cruiser, and adventure bike. 2020: We need to focus on our core customers! Kill everything but the adventure bike! How much money have they pissed away with this yo-yo strategy? | ||
| Crusty |
Well; it's not like they'd do something really stupid like buy Cagiva for a couple of hundred million, then give it back for a buck, or anything like that. Oh; wait a minute... | ||
| Crusty |
Why is it that every time the MoFoCo focuses on their "Core Customers" their sales drop like a lead weight? | ||
| 1313 |
Why is it that every time the MoFoCo focuses on their "Core Customers" their sales drop like a lead weight? I thought the MoFo's at the MoCo had this figured out around the Buell days, but maybe it was after their shortsighted action with Buell. You know what happens to the "Core Customers" of H-D each year? They get a year older (if they're lucky)... That means their "Core Customers" base is shrinking either due to lack of ability to ride, lack of interest, or lack of breathing. In some ways, even if they didn't realize it, H-D was trying to chase that curve when they owned Holiday Rambler. Imagine if they would've created toy haulers before they became the rage, with the H-D barf and shield plastered all over them. Who knows, they might've sold off H-D and kept on with Holiday Rambler...  | ||
| Court |
I was there for the Holiday Rambler fiasco and still have (I think) some of the brochures. Nice motor homes. Stupid move. I’d buy the “right” bike in a minute and they continue move further away. Shame | ||
| Shoggin |
Every single moto-based article I read about HD, the comments section is full of people begging for the street fighter (Lightning) and not one comment that this is the "right" move for HD. Every single one. Na... MORE CHROME!! 50 year old "tech"! My personal Buell feelings aside, Adapt or die is pretty apro-po. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The insane thing is who knows how many millions Harley spent developing the street fighter when they already had the 1125CR. For that matter, they probably could have bought EBR for less and had the 1190SX ready to go. | ||
| Shoggin |
Admitting mistakes is not the HD way. | ||
| Stevel |
There is a marketing niche and HD had it for a long time, but they have lost it, because HD corporate did not understand it. It is simple. It is low speed perfection. That means very quick throttle response and very high torque at low engine speed. That sells because it is fun. Riding a high RPM buzz saw is not fun. It is exciting for sure, but it is stressful and tiring. We here on this forum appreciate the high RPM performance, but we should not deny reality. HD over the past few years have developed engines mimicking all modern piston engines with high idle speeds and low vibrations. That has been the cause of their sales decline. HD bikes are no longer unique. They are like every other motorcycle in characteristics, yet they emulate old styling. It is the wrong formula. They need to develop a large displacement V Twin that produces 80 ft/lbs of torque right off idle and 150 ft/lbs at 5,000 RPM. The motor should idle at 550 RPM. Low speed engines can easily pass modern emissions requirements easier than high speed ones. They should have a low CG and handle easily in traffic. That would sell. Remember, no matter how fast the machine is, you can only go as fast as traffic allows. | ||
| Shoggin |
That is a weird post^^^ "There is a marketing niche and HD had it for a long time, but they have lost it," It's the market that moved, not the product. 'Adapt or die' is a sales mantra. They are making the same exact bike they have always made and refuse to adapt to what MORE people want. "We on this forum appreciate the high RPM performance" Of the Harley Davidson engine in my Tuber? Or the one in my XB? Even my EBR V-twin has the lowest redline BY FAR for that kind of bike. "They need to develop a large displacement V Twin that produces 80 ft/lbs of torque right off idle and 150 ft/lbs at 5,000 RPM" It's called the Milwaukee-Eight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_Milw aukee-Eight_engine#107_and_114_and_117_engines "Low speed engines can easily pass modern emissions requirements easier than high speed ones" 100% False. And how to get fuel injection to make the missing-cylinder-potato-potato sound(from the 50's) they felt so strongly about it was TRADEMARKED and PATENTED? "no matter how fast the machine is, you can only go as fast as traffic allows" Unless you go where theres no traffic, or pass one person. The problem isn't H-D's bikes, they are the BEST they have ever been! It's that there is not enough people left that buy them. Stevel, your perception of what is happening is exactly opposite of reality. Need a job? You would get along well with the H-D board of directors.  } | ||
| Stevel |
Shoggin, Perhaps your appreciation of a motor bike is different than mine. I have ridden the "New" Harleys and the are not what I would buy. I would not buy a new new BMW cruiser either. The HD and BMW dressers used to be different. The new HD bikes idle way to high and they no longer have that long stroke bottom end torque. That instant kick at low speed just by cracking the throttle is missing in all the new bikes. That instant throttle response is gone on all the new bikes. That's why they are losing market share. I miss that low engine speed kick in the pants. That was the niche that HD had and now it's gone. (unless you build the engine yourself of course). | ||
| Shoggin |
That's fair. I get that everyone has their own taste. You aren't the only one unsatisfied with H-D's whole new product line, and THAT is the issue here. Even though the new HD motors have more power in every respect than the older ones, a simple thing like a old throttle cable VS. the new ride-by-wire programming can be a big one. That includes ALL Mfg's that use it. It can take years to get everyone happy about that simple thing (made complicated by EPA regs and such.) Personally, I don't hate cruisers, I don't hate H-D. Heck, the new Fat Bob with a 114 is on my short list. But I WILL be passing traffic on that bitch  | ||
| Ahampton128 |
As a 31 year old with a college degree who started riding about 7 years ago, HD has never been a financial option. My friend briefly had a 2013 or 14 Iron 883, and I can see the allure (he gave it up for V-Strom 650), but their "affordable" bikes don't compare to the competition in dollars to value (ie: Street 750 vs MT07). Some of the new stuff that was supposed to come out was at least interesting like the presumably dead Bronx, and I like the Livewire but HD will be bankrupt before I can afford one of them (also my apartment has nowhere to charge an EV). | ||
| Shoggin |
Neither does Patagonia. LOL | ||
| Crusty |
Yet. | ||
| Shoggin |
There really isn't gas stations either. Haha. But it is possible to carry an extra gallon or 2. | ||
| Court |
https://pune.news/business/ed-conducts-raids-at-he ro-motocorp-ceo-pawan-munjals-residence-in-connect ion-with-dri-case-51612/ Time tells all truths . . . . . Erik Buell could have saved Harley-Davidson. It, instead, became an organization built on ego and vanity. Erik Buell could have saved HERO motocorp from the grip of stereotypical Indian business built on quasi-conscription and greed. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Erik posted to Facebook a couple of days ago that he had a knee joint replaced this week. Maybe this news will alleviate his recovery pain somewhat. |
