| Author | Message | ||
     Rick_a |
Winchester shotguns these days are hilariously Turkish clones of themselves...and their original designs are made in Japan...as are Brownings sporting arms. Don't forget the Browning machine guns...the M2 is still the premier heavy machine gun in the world despite being in service since 1933. His designs are nothing if not enduring. It's interesting how gun designs all have an origin that cross pollenates into others' patents and designs. The world of firearm manufacturing and design has a lot of borrowed, shared, and outright stolen ideas. | ||
| Thumper74 |
So, I learned that there are only three Gander Outdoors locations. We went Sunday and they were pretty much sold out, but had a Gemtech The One suppressor for half-off at just above $500.00, retail is $1100.00 or so. I grabbed the paperwork and took it home to find out that my oldest stepson had managed to rack up $1176.00 in Google Play in app purchases with Verizon. So, the suppressor has been put on hold. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/09/four_ years_after_allowing_universal_concealed_carry_law _maine_rated_the_safest_state_in_the_nation_for_cr ime.html | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/09/05/auth orities-suspect-gun-used-midland-illegally-made-so ld/ All in all, it's just another brick in the wall... | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/09/05/koba ch-gun-control-lies-that-democrats-will-tell-in-th e-days-ahead/ We don't need no education... | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/09/04/coul ter-we-dont-trust-you/ https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2019/09/04/fncs-ca rlson-on-walmart-decision-to-discontinue-ammo-sale s-its-about-the-money-its-only-about-the-money/ https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/09/04/megh an-mccain-there-will-be-violence-if-government-tri es-to-take-ar-15s/ | ||
| Rick_a |
Wow. I've spent some $15 on apps...ever. I still have to submit my passport photos, fingerprints, and the $200 for mine. I'm on the fence as to whether to get a 5.56 suppressor. It was disappointing to find that my current bulk ammo beats up my fancy rifle plate. Guns will never be surrendered by force. It will always be a matter of volunteered surrender under the threat of law...which...is...why we have guns in the first place. On the guns thing, I just put a flip up rear sight on my 15-22 as the 600M adjustable that came with it looks great, but is a bit absurd and unnecessary for the application. I also got a riser for my AR 9mm so that an old school red dot properly co witnesses. It makes a heavy gun heavier...but I just couldn't have a red dot without a home (it was formerly on my wheel gun). It certainly looks right on a gun wearing M4 furniture...which of course makes it right. Some day when I get my SBR lower back from my ex I'll have to take an updated pic. | ||
| Aesquire |
Flame wars on!  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
This is what ammo I carry in my Sig P238. Precision One. I am not worried about the stopping power of a .380. The weak link of a pocket .380 is capacity not caliber IMHO. | ||
| Ourdee |
So, my pistol needs to surpass 2,200 fps to get to the next level. Oh, that would be my AR pistol. Funny to hear what they had to say. I've been looking at carrying 9mm. Even thinking about getting an H&K P30L in 9mm.  Here it is with a compensator:  I have 9mm in a sub-compact. I like full size pistols for accuracy. The longer sight radius makes it easier. | ||
| Rick_a |
P30L yes. Comp no. | ||
| Rick_a |
If I were to carry a .380 it would be with FMJ'S. That said, I don't like any of the guns all that much. If I had a favorite it would probably be the S&W Bodyguard 380. The trigger kinda sucks but it still shoots well. | ||
| Aesquire |
FMJs? Why? That's giving up decades of research and advance in bullet design. You're better off with .22 magnum hollow points than low power icepick 9mm. If they function in your gun, the "screwdriver" tip bullets are better. you can make a case for soft lead wadcutters out of a snub .38, but Speer Gold Dot short barrel loads are an order of magnitude better. I can grasp that you think a .380 is marginal, & I don't disagree, but handicapping yourself with known not good choices? Far better to use the latest tech that promises to narrow the gap between 9 & 9 short. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Yeah, Rick. I've never spent a penny in the app store. He was spending it like it was his and he could afford it. It was hard to explain how much money it was to a 13 year old. I explained it this way and made him do math: If you shovel snow this winter and do a single car driveway for $10.00, how many driveways will you need to shovel to survive? I called Verizon and got $240 back, then contested each charge with Google Play's automated system. We ended up getting all but around $160 back. I'll call this weekend and see about the rest. The suppressor still may be a thing. My .22 suppressor is still in ATF jail at this time, but the gun shop allows conjugal visits, so that's nice. | ||
| Ourdee |
I thought the comp looked funny when John Wick used it. His was a one off comp. I don't plan on getting the comp. It is close. I have also been eye balling this:  | ||
| Aesquire |
IF, as the experts in the video say, 2200 is a magic number, and that is believable, then the S&W .460 just gets there with light bullets. And I think there is historical evidence that the magic number is around 2200, as that is the numbers available with the first "High Power" rifles when smokeless powder PLUS the Swiss experiments in small bore ( smaller than .45 ) projectiles came one after the other. The Eduard Rubin small bore experiments came first. The idea was simple, a small, fast bullet might do as good a job as a slow, big one. Because the equation for energy is, Kinetic energy = 1/2 MV2 the velocity is a huge factor compared to mass. Testing showed it worked, but with black powder, velocity was limited and fouling a problem. Then a French chemist, Paul Vieille, came up with smokeless powder, and the rest... The first military smokeless cartridge was the 8mm Lebel. To save time in a rush project, they just necked down the existing 11mm Gras cartridge, with a lot of taper, which bit them in the butt later, when the poor shape made magazine rifles a pain to design. But, it was a top secret super weapon, and pushed out a big enough bullet at 2500 fps or so. Here is a bunch of history for ya. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4vfqLkQC6g But, that is not only an obsolete, weird, and ( spits ) French round, you won't find any hunting type rifles on that back rack, since the French, like other F'ed up countries, banned military ammo for civilian use. But they DO deserve credit for a LOT of small arms development. In "Murica!, we had ( shortly after the Lebel ) the .30-30, the first small bore, smokeless, hunting cartridge, and our first "high power" rifle, which is still a major player in deer etc. hunting to this day, in part because the Winchester 1894 was such a big seller for many years, and in part because it's Enough. But not too hard kicking. the 7.62x39, while in no way a copy of the .30-30, is just a little bit less powerful than the .30-30. My personal experience is it kicks noticeably less. ( out of rifles of similar mass ) But is still a "high power" rifle cartridge, right at the bottom end of that magic 2200.... And is a well proven man killer, and increasingly popular as a deer hunting cartridge with the import of lots of cheap SKS & AK variants. It's not a coincidence that the 7.62x39 & .30-30 are both very successful, for the same reason, albeit on different missions. Excuse the long winded rant here. But I get ill informed people try to tell me that the 5.56 Nato is a super powerful death machine that rips your lungs out by tumbling through the body like a vile, sadistic robot after you shoot someone in the forearm. And there is some tiny amount of truth to that, with military ammo, as it is designed to destabilize and tumble on impact. Depending on year, version, and velocity. One "problem" with the short barrel M4 type rifles is that destabilization pretty abruptly quits "working" below a threshold velocity. So a M4 & issue military ammo will just drill a tiny hole straight through after a fairly short distance. But that's not what I would use for defensive ammo. I'd use modern, expanding bullets that blow a hole of considerably larger than .22" all the way through the zombie. I'm not limited by the Geneva Convention, and my concept of "sporting" is a quick clean kill, not a wounded woodchuck ( or whatever ) dragging itself into a hole to die in protracted agony. And if it's "zombies" and a real defensive need, then I really want the best expanding bullets, in .223 or .380. | ||
| Rick_a |
Because penetration is everything...and 22 Magnum is not a viable defensive cartridge...and I'd use FMJ for that, too...unless shooting small game. The Smith & Wesson Scandium 1911's are really nice guns at a reasonable price. Just be aware that the frame finish wears easily. 5.56 is good for the purpose, whether defense or varmiting. Reliable expansion is always preferred to fragmentation. There are some bullets in 223/5.56 that expand at fairly low velocities with often better penetration at those lower velocities.
It's good to hear things are (mostly) straightened out. Hopefully the young man learned a valuable lesson. My holster from Turkey is on it's way again (my ex returned it). It'll have literal months in transit by the time I get it. I fired my 1911 quickly into a left over target yesterday. Ended up with one big hole at eight yards. That was satisfying. For an obsolete gun in a useless caliber with low capacity, I sure have a lot of faith in it. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Because penetration is everything Disagree, especially in a CCW situation. I don't want penetration (and possible backstop penetration - in other words, hitting the innocent standing behind the Bad Actor in the case of a through-and-through), I want expansion and maximum cavity damage. I practice with FMJ because I get them for .14-.19/rd; I carry Hornady Critical Duty because it'll hit...and expand. And not go through. And, it'll feed - as noted above, I've had a couple feed issues with screw-tips but the Hornady feeds fine. I ran half a box through the gun when I first got it, just to make sure (that was an expensive target!)...but zero issues. Every second or third screw-tip jammed on the ramp. For the apps? Change your password. And buy him a new snow shovel, just to make the point this winter. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm with Ratbuell on this one. I understand your point, that old .380 expanding bullets didn't dig deep enough to reliably do the job. That's why Bird shot is not for defense, period freaking, dot. Cops have died because Bird shot, while leaving a nasty looking wound that impresses the jury when the bad guy sues you, won't get to the vital organs to stop them from killing you even after you hit them with 12ga. "Always Works". #4 buck & bigger is needed. And a very not PC buddy says ".22. Magnum couldn't kill Ronnie Reagan at point blank range, so I won't carry it" which is true, so I don't disagree with you there. And if you WANT to handicap yourself with 1800s obsolete military bullets, Heck Yes, use a .45! But macho & nostalgia & obsolete thinking shouldn't make you silly & suicidal if you find yourself with a 9 Short as the weapon at hand. Admittedly, I haven't bought one, yet, because the wrists can still take the recoil from a pocket 9 Parabellum, but the legal need to deep conceal & the latest generation of polymer tip ammo are making one more and more likely. Plus the PPK is back, & how can I not like a 007 gun? Of course, .223 Hornady TAP is a far better choice. I just can't have it... So...( Sticks out tongue and makes childish noise ) | ||
| Ratbuell |
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| Thumper74 |
Ratbuell, it wasn't a matter of the password. He has his own line and Verizon's default policy is to allow $300 per line in 'credit', which amounts to pass through billing to the account. My wife and I are authorized for the account and never received a text about the charges that he was making. We weren't made aware of it until we checked the account balance and called Verizon. To correct this, we did a few things. He's grounded for a long, long time. I changed his e-mail password reset to my phone number, so any attempt to login, will e-mail and text me the PIN to enter to make the changes. We had Verizon lock that feature on the account as well. I have been able to get all but $160 back in the charges from the store and $160 in reconnect fees. I'm going to work on that this weekend as well. It's been a learning experience for all involved. The plus side of this is that my .22 suppressor should have an approval relatively soon as it's been around 10 months since it was sent in. The same shop holding that one has a Hybrid 46 in stock that should be a good fit for the CZ P10C I bought... One of the hammer fired CZs, the P09 is on my list as well. | ||
| Rick_a |
As it pertains to .380...the only ammunition on the market with adequate and reliable penetration as a defensive cartridge is FMJ. With 9mm and up...you are correct...though no wonder bullet will make up for poor shot placement. .22LR suppressed is a joy to shoot with subsonics. Anything centerfire is simply more pleasant and somewhat hearing safe suppressed. My ears still don't like it...but it should excite the neighbors a bit less. One thing I like about my 9mm can is that I can get away with using standard height sights. | ||
| Ratbuell |
though no wonder bullet will make up for poor shot placement. Which is why I stack the deck in my favor, with an ECR instant-on Viridian Reactor5 green laser, sight-aligned at 30'. The holster has a magnet in it. Draw from the holster, and the laser lights automatically before my arm crosses 45 degrees from horizontal. If I can bring up to eye level and use the iron sights...great (that's how I practice for the most part - accessories do not replace skill, and sometimes batteries die). But given my line of work, most times I have low-light conditions where even the fiber-optic front sight can't gather much light - which is where the laser comes in, as well as shoot-from-hip or around-obstacles scenarios. Place dot. Pull trigger. Create hole. I pray to God I never have to put it into practice...but I still stack the deck as much as I can in my favor. Just in case. | ||
| Ourdee |
In paint ball games the opponents laser got them shot. Not always good to have the laser on. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Wow, y'all been busy... I have lost a little confidence in my NAA Wasp, but found my .380 Bodyguard fits a lower pocket. Carrying both. Sucks being a sheepdog. Z | ||
| Ratbuell |
My normal environment for this is concerts...with plenty of lasers bouncing around as part of the stage show. The one on my 9mm is one of about 25 in the room. And I traditionally wear black - not for tactical reasons, but because I was a Production major and as a stagehand / crew member...I want to disappear because it's not my show. I'm not supposed to be seen. It just...works out, from a tactical standpoint. | ||
| Aesquire |
Rick, .380 ammo test. ( there are dozens ) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts Hmm. The magazines are all happy with the latest stuff. Go ahead & laugh. But I'm inclined to believe real humans, and your concern isn't imaginary. The above test show the vast majority fail the 12-18" FBI ( NO barrier ) in penetration depth and expansion. The few that did, turned in ok but not great performance vs. A 9 Parabellum. And only 2 bullet models. So if that Hornady bullet, or the Hydrashock don't function perfectly in your gun? Then you have to settle for marginal, ( There were a few not really bad choices ) I expected that one of the Hornady designs would do well. It's a surprise that a modern classic did too. Hydrashock just works. I trust in in a .38 Special. So, your point is very valid, but I still disagree on detail. This does make me rethink the choice of .380 as my only carry gun. And there's another video demonstrating the barrel length difference. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hVfStJS5XQw Which validates your concern too. | ||
| Rick_a |
With marginal ammunition choices the shorter barrels are a bit of a crux. Snubby .38's and 357's are a prime example. Careful ammo selection can be critical...as most 357 ammo has a 6" barrel in mind and a lot of .38 Special loads are of marginal performance out of a short barrel. Some don't expand and/or don't penetrate adequately. The old stand by's of wadcutters or semi wadcutters will still get the job done...and with low recoil. That said I like to use Hornady, Winchester, Federal, Remington, and Speer defense loads when I can afford them. I like to regularly shoot the stuff out to ensure that the combo still works after being linty, dirty, sweat on, and neglected for a minute and that the operator still does well with it. It's also fun to occasionally blow stuff up with them. Some just make holes. Others make a real mess out of what you're shooting. | ||
| Aesquire |
I was a big fan of the now discontinued Guard Dog. Absolute consistency in expanding, bare gelatin, heavy leather clothing, car, didn't care. Fed like FMJ, cycled everything I had, reliably. Then they started making 2 versions, civilian & LEO models with the civilian being slower & slightly under penetrating. ( out of a 3" 9 mm ) The LEO model kicked noticeably more and made a bigger fireball. ( I had a source ) And did reliably penetrate. But those are gone now. And I shot my stash in practice, with the "last magazine shot in practice is carry ammo" technique so my expectations are consistent from last range impression to defense situation. When I got down to my last...um...seven, I just expended them and finished with the next carry choice. ( Hornady TAP, at the time ) I'm past due for a trip to Cabela's to buy samples of current available ammo to try. | ||
| Ourdee |
though no wonder bullet will make up for poor shot placement. You have not shot 40mmHE. |
