| Author |
Message |
    
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2019 - 12:10 am: | 
|
I have a 2007 XB12SCG with a K&N air filter and a Jardine RT-1 exhaust. I am running the program from Buelltooth for this motorcycle and this specific set up. Now both the stock map and the Buelltooth both run REALLY rich. The Denver area seems unwilling to work on this bike for a dyno, except 1 place but to the tune of $400 for a dyno. I was wondering/hoping that I could use some type of fuel management system that could autotune this and would be effective for future mods to the engine. I've had this bike for a year and a half and been able to ride it 600 miles in that time due to down time. Please help. |
Smorris
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2019 - 12:53 am: |
|
Any codes? Seems to be something not right. "Auto;-tuner" would be trying to cover it up . There is an underlying problem |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 02, 2019 - 04:07 pm: |
|
No codes. The not right part is that my mixture is way too rich. Not sure on how to lean my mixture, not interested in cover ups. Just want to have it fixed so I can ride. I don't want to pay $400 when paying a little more would allow me to use different maps on the fly. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 03, 2019 - 12:15 pm: |
|
A stock ECM should (IIRC) be able to cope with the changes you have made. So, IF all is well, the stock map should work.
An extremely rich mixture means a problem somewhere else. If a sensor is in pre-fail mode, where it is giving bad info but is not so flawed as to throw a code, that could be an issue. And did the situation come on all at once, or over time?
First thought is to check the injectors, and make sure they are not leaking. Anything partially blocking airflow to/from the engine?
Hope this helps, Dave |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2019 - 07:55 am: |
|
What is your AFV number ? |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Saturday, July 06, 2019 - 08:42 am: |
|
What is your AFV number indicating |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 07:36 am: |
|
Sorry this took awhile, death in the family. Not to sure about how it came on. I bought the bike last year and it smelled rich when I bought it. It has sat most of the time I've owned because I had to replace the rocker box seal. Once that was fixed the fuel smell was still there. I'll have to look into checking the injectors. There is no blockage of airflow. Once I get off work I'll get the AFV number. What is the AFV so I know for future reference. I'm assuming it can be checked by my Buelltooth. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 08:48 am: |
|
Sorry for your loss. Always a difficult situation.
Don't have a service manual that covers your model. On my X-1, the ECM fuel program has 2 'modes', open loop and closed loop. If the ECM sees small changes in throttle changes and RPM changes, the ECM decides you are cruising, and pays a great deal of attention the 02 sensor. It then adjusts the entire fuel map rich or lean as needed. This is the Adaptive Fuel Value, or AFV. The altitude in Denver, for example, will need a leaner mixture than a city at sea level.
So, the ideal, or normal, AFV would be 100. In Denver on a hot day, the AFV might change to the low to middle 90's. Cold air at sea level might be in the 105 range.
So, if you have an AFV of, say 124, something is causing that. A reset to 100, and riding for a while and see how it acts, and checking to see if the AFV changes would be in order.
The above applies to my tuber fuel system; you have the next generation,which may be somewhat different.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 12:10 pm: |
|
1) Things to check for with engine cold check the IAT compared to the ET. They should be no more than 10 deg between them. 2) Intake leak to the throttle body seals would cause the ECM to add more fuel.(known issue with these bikes) order the blue silicone ones from ST Paul's Harley. 3) Fuel injectors O-rings and dirty sticking fuel injector pintle.(would require new/clean injectors. 4) bad O2 sensor ( you can look at a O2 sensor same as you would looking at spark plug. 5) Fouled spark plugs.( Pull both of them and inspect) 5) TPS may need to be reset. 6) timing to retarded. 7) weak spark cause by coil or bad spark plugs, coil, or bad plug wires. Don't throw any parts away until you solve the problem. I don't like throwing parts at a problem but I'm guilty of that. 8) inspect injector wires for lumps,rubbing etc.. also inspect the injectors connectors to the injectors. I use ECM Droid with a Buell tooth. |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2019 - 07:42 pm: |
|
Thanks Dave that was a great explanation. Gabby duck, I haven't gotten into anything yet because I am weighing my options but I am assuming my spark plugs are fouled also I had a nightmare situation with the TPS but I hope that is all good. Timing to retarded? Do you mean my timing needs to be retarded? Thanks for the list, this will help alot. Not sure when I will get a chance to tear into, hopefully next week or the week after. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 07:39 am: |
|
Make sure your bikes timing is per manufacturer specifications. I would go after the throttle body seals and at the same time take care of the dogs injectors. A question I have to you is when the bike is first Crank up engine cold how is the idle? If it's good then gets bad after warming up I would definitely suspect the intake seals. If course make sure your plugs are cleaned before this test. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 10:20 am: |
|
You are welcome. Glad it was understandable.
"Nightmare situation with the TPS" . . . .
A TPS calibration should be high on the list of things to check first. The TPS is basically a rheostat that varies a 5V reference signal from the ECM, based on throttle position. 0.5ish volts closed, to something close to 5V at wide open ( tuber numbers) sent back to the ECM. The fuel map is written with zero fuel delivered at zero volts, increasing fuel at increasing volts.
The fully closed TPS on a bike may have a closed voltage of, say, 0.4V. The TPS reset "tells" the ECM that a voltage 0.4V is really 0.00V, on that bike, and applies that correction to the fuel map.
A long way of saying that a bad TPS calibration can/will skew the entire fuel map off. Might be enough in your case to cause the rich condition. If you have changed the TPS, the ECM, or changed the fuel map, a TPS reset is required.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Tpehak
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 04:56 pm: |
|
Man, that TPS issue sucks. That's why modern motorcycles have two TPS working together. The system analyses signals from both TPS and always compares them. Once it sees difference between signals it knows exactly one TPS is bad and sends error message so you can fix it. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 05:08 pm: |
|
Haha Dogs ? ( I haven't a clue how I put that in the above paragraph) Motion pro makes a decent fuel injector tool for cleaning injectors. If you like send them to me and I can clean them for free. You can order new ones from St Paul's Harley Davidson. Front injector is different from rear injector. Look at the color as you pull them out of the throttle body and the injectors location front or rear |
Tpehak
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 06:31 pm: |
|
No need to look the color, just look at the nozzle, the injector nozzle hole has to be faced toward engine valve - this is how you figure out where to stick the injector. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 07:35 pm: |
|
Agree but I used the colors just like on a old Dell computer.By the way my injector plugs say Ford on them |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 07:40 pm: |
|
I just finished putting on a front isolator mount on my 09 Ulysses. Dang it's amazing I can now see without all the vibration in the mirrors.Took about 20 minutes to remove and install. |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2019 - 08:43 pm: |
|
As far as starting, it wouldn't without opening the throttle a little. But when I did that only 1 cylinder would fire (I used to have a Blast and I know that sound and feel of 1 cylinder). I have no idea which cylinder it was. I have not tried since the issue began.
When I loaded the map, I did a TPS reset so I don't think its that. The nightmare was that I had somehow not connected my ignition coils all the way and some how become disconnected and I thought it was the TPS. But the whole thing was a nightmare. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Friday, July 12, 2019 - 02:39 pm: |
|
OK, some questions answered. As simple as a TPS reset is, won't hurt to do it again.
Another fairly simple check, per my '08 XB manual, is to check the injectors for leakage.
Remove the air box cover and air filter so you can see into the throttle body. With the stop/run switch to run, turn the key on for 2 sec, then off for 2 sec. Repeat 5 times. Then open the throttle and look into the manifold with a strong light. If there is any evidence of raw fuel, replace the injectors. Or have them overhauled.
By the way, a clogged injector will/can result in a rich condition. Counterintuitive, I know, but if I understand the process correctly - A clogged or dirty injector sprays a stream of fuel, not a mist. The individual drops of gasoline don't have enough surface area to burn cleanly in the time allotted, resulting in unburned fuel. I.E. a rich situation.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Sunday, July 21, 2019 - 08:28 pm: |
|
OK went to work on the bike today and I wanted to get the best description possible. Started right up. But I recorded some info to help because clearly there is an issue. TPS is set at 5.5, AFV is 88.4, and the TPS voltage is 0.77V. I did take off the air cover to look at the spark plugs and found that the velocity stack was not sealed on the baseplate. Not my fault, took it to a shop and they must've skipped that. The bike runs fine now but still runs really rich. All the numbers stayed the same after the ride. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 05:10 pm: |
|
Buelltooth sells a map sensor. This will be better for your elevation vs the oxygen sensor. Go to their web site for more info. Did you redo your TPS setting per service manual. |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Monday, July 22, 2019 - 11:01 pm: |
|
I don't think I need to reset the TPS, the RPM is spot on at idle. The TPS was a previous issue, it has nothing to do with whats going on now. Will the Buelltooth baro sensor help with the AFV? From some reading, the lower the AFV that means my bike is running rich. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 02:59 am: |
|
This page will help you https://www.buelltooth.com/open-loop.html |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 03:11 am: |
|
I'm not saying to turn off close loop that is your choice. This site has the info on the Baro sensor. I highly recommend the buelltooth setup with the free ECM Droid app. If you make changes make sure you take notes on your previous setups so if you have issues you can get back to your original setups. keep us informed on how everything is going as your info will help others. Many never post their final. solutions after they fix issues. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 09:59 am: |
|
In re-reading the entire thread, it seems that :
You have a bike that starts and runs fine. And an AFV below 100 is more lean than ideal, not rich. A ride does not result in the numbers changing, so things are stable.
If you are getting fuel mileage in the 45MPG or above range, I am going to say the bike is fine, the rich smell is just the way your machine is, and to ride it.
Dave |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 23, 2019 - 11:27 am: |
|
Agree with you Dave with the above paragraph. I don't live in the mountains here in Florida so My AFV stays around 95. Dave Didn't you one time have a bike with a intermittent trouble light on your bike some years ago |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 03:54 am: |
|
If it smells rich so be it, I had a '81 KZ440 that would have to be run rich or it wouldn't run. Just wanna make sure it runs right. The whole not starting and running got me worried and don't wanna mess up my baby. Since my AFV is a little low can I adjust that using the Buelltooth app? I really suck at electronics and like way to much info. It seems as if there is a reset for it. If I run that will it possibly bring the AFV up? |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 04:45 am: |
|
Checked out Buelltooth and there site said that if I have an AFV above or below 10 from 100 then there is a mechanical issue with my bike i.e. sensor or intake seal. So should I be planning on replacing some stuff or would resetting the AFV to 100 first and riding for a while to see if it changes be the first step? |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 24, 2019 - 10:28 am: |
|
First to Kevin:
Doctors tell us that our 'normal' temperature is 98.6F. Normal is accented because that is an average; it can be higher or lower and still be fine. Blood pressure is 'normal' at 120/80. Again, higher or lower can be fine.
And it varies. As an aside, the city sent a nurse to the police dept to do a wellness evaluation. One officer had a fairly high blood pressure reading. Since it was shift change, she had him get out of uniform and come back; that was enough to bring his readings back into the normal range.
Buelltooth's advice would be in the same vein. Your AFV of 88.4 is only 1.6 out of 100 out of their tolerance. Given your altitude and summer temps, 88.4 could very well be acceptable. Given what has been checked, with no mechanical issues found, I would not worry about it. No codes, so sensor are OK, and leaking intake gaskets usually show up as a hanging idle - the idle stays at 1600-1800 rpm and stays there until a slight application of clutch pulls the rpm's down, and normal idle is obtained.
Nothing wrong with resetting AFV to 100. The mixture will be more rich, but could be a good investigative tool. Reset the AFV to 100, then go for a 30ish minute ride in cruise mode, on the straightest, most level road in the area. Challenge in you area, I know, but that puts you in the closed loop mode. When you get back, check AFV again. If it has dropped, and the engine ran fine, then you have no problem. More on that in a moment.
To Gabbyduck:
Only real issue I had with a CEL was an on/off situation on one ride. When on, bike ran very poorly; it would go out and all would be well. Got home, and found a really long list of trouble codes. Textbook case of a failing engine temp sensor.
The intermittent problem involved the engine developing a slight miss when cruising. Found the AFV was in the low 80's. Reset AFV to 100, and all was well. Then the miss would return, and the AFV had dropped. Found out the rear fuel injector was drooling, causing the rear cylinder to be rich. The 02 sensor was reading that condition, and leaning out the entire fuel map by reducing the AFV to the low 80's, causing the miss. |
Tpehak
| | Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 01:25 am: |
|
How did you find the rear injector was drooling? |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, July 25, 2019 - 11:39 am: |
|
Drooling is a term I used to describe the situation.
In investigating the falling AFV issue, I discovered a procedure in the service manual to check for a leaking fuel injector. Basically, after removing the stuff needed so you can look into the intake manifold, you turn the ignition on, then turn the stop/run switch on/off 5 (?) times. Then look into the intake manifold with a mirror and a strong light for raw fuel.
When I did that, I did not find any fuel in the manifold, but there was a wet stain around the rear fuel injector. Hence, 'drooling', not 'leaking'.
Replaced the rear injector, and the AFV problem stopped.
Dave |
Xb_blaster
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 30, 2019 - 07:22 pm: |
|
Here's the final situation. Went on a 170 mile ride and had no issue other than one that has been present since I got the bike. When cold and not allowed to warm up over a hard 5 minutes, I get one misfire up to 5 mph when starting off. Once warm no issues to be had. The ride was good other than an Excursion taking up the road in the twisties. The trip was from 5800' to ~9000' So I think that for whatever reason my battery was just low enough to get a weird start of one cylinder. |
|
Troubleshooting (Poor Starting/Running/Handling/Ride Issues) »
WAY TOO rich of a mixture