| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Shoggin, So the USA legislated that Japanese car manufacturers produce more fuel efficient cars back in the 1970's during the OPEC oil takeover? Huh. I did not know that. Silly me figured it was consumer choice and market forces that compelled improved fuel efficiency and smaller sleeker vehicles. Fleet regs aren't as effective for the tech dev as you imagine. How's that Chevy Volt doing? | ||
| Ciemny02 |
It will take longer for USA to adapt, comparing to Iceland for sure. But this is the unstoppable change. ICE engine technology is old.... More than a century old. Not much has changed since the first combustion engines. Idea is the same. Time to move forward, especially when there are more eco-friendly and cheaper solutions. Someone will say that batteries manufacture and utilization process is not green at all. It is definitely not perfect but technology is moving fast forward and have much lesser impact on the environment compared to old black oil and its extraction from the sea bottom etc and it's further burning. | ||
| Stevel |
I am amazed by the poor education level of young folks these days. Not just in the sciences, but general education, like civil studies, history and basic geography. Yet as illiterate as the general public is, it is amazing how quick the public is to take advantage of a good deal. The Government does not ever have to promote something advantageous. Good shit promotes itself. So if the Government is promoting something, avoid it like the plague. The Government never drives innovation, it usually inhibits it. Politicians are scientifically illiterate and yet they are responsible for making our laws. How sick is that! So when responders on these forums start talking green, beware. They are usually not correctly informed. (Message edited by steve-l on March 17, 2019) | ||
| Shoggin |
Blake,your point is valid. So is mine. You are forgetting about a little American gov't entity called the EPA. They legislate MPG, and emissions goals for the manufacturers to meet. And a current thing called EURO-5. And in this state... C.A.R.B. Etc. | ||
| Ciemny02 |
Stevel, I can clearly see you are bit narrow minded. Go and expand your horizons first. Travel, visit, before stating absurds like the one about 20miles of paved roads in Iceland.. It is derogatory ignorance. After gathering some experiences and more broad knowledge of subject, without mixing politics into it, think again. First of all I would recommend to visit my beautiful second biggest town in Poland. The place I had to run away from after 30+ years of constant sickness, absence in school and later work. After thousands of euros spent for the "best" doctors, most educated pulmonology professors etc, after hundreds of swallowed pills and so on and so on. I was told I have severe allergies and asthma, so called modern diseases. None of this educated idiots did not mention one simple fact: polluted environment. I started to look for solution hopelessly on my own. First some alternative medicine, more caution diet a lot to talk about. No expected effect at all. When I was in the moment where 20min of appointment with best doctors cost me 100$ I said "enough". I made one very firm step: I changed environment for the cleanest possible. That's how I ended in Iceland. Now after few years here I am the great example of a healthy person. I haven't swallowed any pill for years and last year I was out of work for two days due to some sort of flu. So come and visit my town in winter, when all these cars and burned coal ruin the air to suhh extense, that living there is becoming dangerouse. Where new born kids end up with new types of allergies, pulmonology problems etc. Iceland is clean and pure on itself. This kind of drastic changes, like electric cars is more needed in other parts of the world, like Poland for example. I am happy though that I live in a smart country with clever approach for the future and health. Iceland boosts the longest life expectancy. Americans on the contrary. (Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019) | ||
| Mnscrounger |
"ICE engine technology is old.... More than a century old." Ciemny, your right in that I expect at some point in my life I will own an electric or hybird vehicle, and it will probably serve me as well or better than any other for the purpose I bought it. Stevel is also right, "Good shit promotes itself.", but I have one caveat to add. When something works well, there is no rush to replace it. I still grin when I pull the enrichener knob, and hit the start button on a 1941 Ford 9N. After sitting all winter in a pole shed, the engine fires in about three revolutions. The pure simplicity of purpose in the product design, and minimalist engineering in the execution, retrospectively is a work of art. (Though when introduced it was actually quite tech splashy to get all those features of three point hitch, live PTO, hydraulics, and electric start in a tractor that small, for only $585.00) There are lots of more powerful, comfortable and versatile tractors out there, but why spend the money on them when what I have serves the purpose? Stevel's reaction to government and green technology in his last statement to me seems a bit knee jerk, (I took it as if the government promotes it, it must be bad.) but I also see his point about those who know nothing driving polcy. I would like to remind that some of the greatest technology advances came from a governments, (usually ours), desire to accomplish a goal. I'm referring to the space program, satellite communications and material science advances. They were often conceived and intended for military strategic advantage, but often found their way into mostly benign civilian use. Personally I am a fan of the idea of truly green unlimited energy. (Though that has yet to be realized fully) I do look forward to technology options in transportation based on market forces,and lifestyle choices, not government mandates. | ||
| Gregtonn |
ICE engine technology is old.... More than a century old. It is much older than that. The first documented ICEs used gunpowder as fuel. There have been huge changes since then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_inter nal_combustion_engine In terms of practical use for transport the electric motor was ahead of the ICE. https://www.eti.kit.edu/english/1376.php In terms of "green" potential electric vehicles have as many issues as ICEs. Materials for batteries and motors in EVs are most often strip mined. Ore processing is also required and again is a very dirty process. While extraction and processing of oil is by no means a clean process it is cleaner and has fewer dirty byproducts and waste and used less energy. Then there are the power generation and electricity distribution requirements. Most people don't notice all the substations and transformers in our towns and cities. Add to that solar panels and wind generators, which at this point are not efficient enough to provide the power to self replicate, and you have a very ungreen replacement for the ICE. That is not to say we should not continue to improve EV technology, we just need to continue to develop it using intelligent solutions. G | ||
| Ciemny02 |
Gregton, nice facts. Thanks. Plenty of information but I was left with the feeling of you being a litle biased  Consequences of errors during oil extraction on oil platforms, oil spills into the ocean, leaks from cargo ships and fires of drilling shafts are far greater and harmful than evaporating brine ponds on the sun. You did not mention also that reserves of oil will last around 50years from now if we won't increase the oil extraction. Second and that's a big difference, battery once made works. There is no such significant harmful byproducts like in the ICE. I am not taking only about vapors and fumes and CO2 emissions but also, oil changes etc. I do not know how it works there on your land but here everybody is very happy that government introduce gently this philosophy. Iceland is situated on the edge of the world. Fuel is expensive. Why spend stupid amount of money on something which can be easily replaced by modern solution which cost nothing in a long run. Of course, no thrilling sound and vibrations but I take torque instead and clean air. I am not sold completely yet. We still need many years to go fully electric. I am not owning EV and not planing to in next decade. But definitely a combination of EV and ICE. I am sold on PHEV hybrid. Sincerely Bart (excuse me for edits. My English has limitations.) (Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019) (Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019) (Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019) (Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019) | ||
| Gregtonn |
I was left with the feeling of you being a little biased I suppose I am, having been raised on a farm and worked in other locations where the nearest electric outlet was miles away. In those places a spare can of fuel will usually get you back to where you need to be. G | ||
| Stevel |
Wow Clemny, You call me narrow minded? I have lived all over the world. Not visited, lived. I did this for many years. Nobody wants oils spills and pollution and it is unfair to point to all those ills and blame it on fossil fuels. Consider that fossil fuel is stored solar energy and as I stated before, it is the gold standard for energy storage safety and density. Whatever comes after oil must meet or exceed that standard. Renewables cannot replace fossil fuels. It isn't possible. The world's energy requirement far exceeds the capability of all the various sources of renewables by huge margins. Iceland is not an examble the rest of the world can follow. It is unique. Yes the ICE is more than 120 yrs. old. You have to ask yourself why it is still the engine of choice after all these years. I can list all the reasons why that is so, but the answer is simple. There is nothing better at the moment. No matter what governments want or even insist on, no body is willing to commit economic suicide to be more green. It isn't ever going to happen. Keeping food on the table and a roof over your head will always carry the highest priority. Being an idealist is not a crime, but being impractical is, when it wastes valuable resources. Nobody really wants to address the real issue. The actual cause of all these problems is over population. We are too many and we are outstripping the earth's resources, but this issue is too unpleasant, controversial and unpopular to address. No worries though, if we don't deal with it, mother earth will. Brace! | ||
| Ciemny02 |
Stevel, I understand your approach but the change is inevitable. I would say that your thinking is more idealistic than mine You would like to keep oil as it is and ICE engines as there is nothing better atm, but it is impossible. Like you said: overpopulation. I completely agree on that fact. But oil is dissappearing and will be dissappearing faster and faster each decade. There is no other way. Only what we can do is to find different source of energy. We cannot reduce the amount of people. Oil will be gone anyway. Iceland is a difficult to compare. 100% of its energy today comes from renewable sources. But not only Iceland is on the good way. Sweden is going 100% electric also. They are going to skip fossil fuell next decades.England the same (IMHO England will be next. There is a project going on in Iceland to build power lines on sea bottom between Iceland and UK. Energy will be sold to UK and UK will be distributing it further to EU. Also Germany. Germany are technically able to supply 78% of country power need with renewable sources of energy. Interesting article. Peace out https://www.clickenergy.com.au/news-blog/12-countr ies-leading-the-way-in-renewable-energy/ (Message edited by ciemny02 on March 18, 2019) | ||
| Jaimec |
Part 2: https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fuell-is-more-t han-an-electric-motorcycle-company-part-2 | ||
| Dstro |
Stevel, come on, man. Is this the hill you want to die on? "...fossil fuel is the gold standard for energy storage safety and density?" It is a silly hill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density Look, two seconds of a google search yields a basic reference of things with higher energy densities. By your logic, the next thing we should make our cars run on is probably melted ice cream. Carbohydrates have a higher energy density than gasoline, and the worst damage done by an ice cream spill is probably an ant problem or a sad child. I'm far too lazy to make a list of a fraction of the harm done to people and environment alike by fossil fuels. But, nobody's been burned to death by ice cream, as far as I know. And are you suggesting that it is unfair that people blame oil spills on the fossil fuel industry? ...Did I read that right? Please follow up on that train of thought; I'm thinking of cancelling my cable and could use the entertainment. Now, the next thing that is blatantly wrong: "The world's energy requirement far exceeds the capability of all the various sources of renewables by huge margins." If you are saying that renewable energy sources don't make enough energy to meet people's needs, I've gotta ask: have you heard of the Sun? Our Sun? Are you saying that humanity uses more energy than the Sun? I'm pretty sure you don't but just to cover my bases, do you realize that isn't possible for humanity right now? On the other hand, if what you're saying is that the current amount of energy produced by renewable resources is not sufficient to sustain humanity, then you're right. Which is kinda like calling the Wright brothers a-holes because they weren't making 737's. Do you know what the most common photovoltaic material used is when making basic solar cells? Silicon. Which, when you get down to it, comes from sand. It's dirt. People are making energy from dirt. The foundation of this technology is literally dirt-cheap. Do you really think that people won't be able to make money supplying a demand that is constantly growing while starting from dirt-cheap? Or do you think there's more oil than dirt? The big obstacle with electric transportation that you are pointing out is making renewable energy portable. Which is where batteries come in. You know, that also-cheap thing that powers your smoke detector, your remote, your pacemaker, your flashlight, your motorcycle, and about a million other things in your life? You can't think that it didn't take innovation to make the battery as versatile and prevalent as it is today. You should also know that that research is ongoing. You ALSO also know that batteries transmit energy better than gasoline, right? Even though gas has a greater energy density, about 70% of that energy is spent making heat that we don't use instead of forward mechanical motion? This is why people are focusing on extending EV ranges by trying to make bigger batteries that charge quickly - at the moment, an electric motor is ridiculously more efficient in terms of "energy in" vs "motion out". Ironically, this is why there are people developing thermoelectric materials with the aim of making electricity from the waste heat your ICE makes. The real issue is overpopulation, you're right; it's basic math. If it weren't for all those other people, we would have more natural resources than we could ever possibly consume. Like our fathers, and their fathers, and so on and so forth. Woe is us for not having the luxury of having more than what we will need. As far as I can tell, this is a tough one to solve without killing, sterilizing, or simply letting countless people die by inaction. The trouble is who gets to choose. I'll just keep hoping that the battery thing works. In my opinion, the mindset of "There is nothing better at the moment...It isn't ever going to happen" is exactly why so many great concepts have difficulty becoming realized, and is exactly the thing that makes me so surprised you would ever own a Buell or EBR. You certainly don't seem to appreciate the thought and innovation that goes into an electric motorcycle, and I hope you never buy one. Now, I know I've been mean, but another few seconds of button clicking gave me a great reference on material that is pretty great as far as educating yourself about solar power at the least, should you ever admit you don't know everything and actually want to learn something (I hope you do). There are a lot of things I don't know, and I find it pretty informative. Here's the abstract: "We ask and answer a series of questions regarding the potential of the sun to supply energy to the world. The questions are drawn in large part from the U.S. Department of Energy Office of Basic Energy Science’s recent report on Basic Research Needs in Solar Energy Utilization (BES 2005). The answers are given in a format suitable for a lay technical audience, and are supplemented by detailed calculations and comprehensive references." Here's the link; it's at least a decade old, but the sun probably hasn't changed that much: https://www.sandia.gov/%7Ejytsao/Solar%20FAQs.pdf | ||
| Stevel |
Dstro, Thank you for the references. They are pretty good and worth reading. I suggest you read them again.Your references did not prove my statement wrong. With the exception of radioactive material and compressed hydrogen, fossil fuels have the greatest energy density and specific energy. You clearly have never visited a silicon wafer factory. They are NOT green, Yes, silicon does come from sand, but the wafer process involves some extremely hazardous chemicals and their disposal is seriously problematic. It is for this reason most wafer manufacturing has moved to the third world where disposal restrictions are much less strict. A few years ago solar cells were 5% efficient and had a less than 5 year effective life span, but even today after many improvements in efficiency and cost have been made, today's cells are advertised at 18% efficient and then only when new on a perfect day at noon in Phoenix. We have a long way to go before solar power generation can come close to meeting the worlds energy needs. Even combined with all the other renewable energy sources, we are no way close enough to eliminate the use of fossil fuels, especially for vehicle use. A further consideration is the amount of water required by these renewable energy sources. Water will be a very serious concern in the very near future. You have not read all my inputs to this thread. I clearly stated in my first response the superiority of electric vehicles. Please reread. I am also a proud owner of a Segway since 2011. I really like electric......I do! However, it is this experience that has led me to my opinion. Existing battery technology is many, many years away from being a direct replacement of the ICE and fossil fuel. How many of the readers on this forum has had serious issues with LiPO4 batteries? It is really good thing that our bikes are not used in cold weather. LiPO4 batteries go to hell in a hand basket below 10C. I must repeat myself here. All governments are parasitic. No government ever has created any innovations, ever. All innovations happen through the efforts of individuals and many times to pure luck. The mother of invention is need and opportunity. It can never be mandated by law. Although idealism is not illegal, it often gets in the way of common sense. Consider the example of Solindra. That disaster is what happens when the government thinks otherwise. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
"The mother of invention is need and opportunity. It can never be mandated by law." Agreed, but we have three privately owned companies in the USA launching satellites, cargo, and soon people into space. While you're right in that it was demand that drove the innovation, much of the work they base their innovation on came from what was once described a government folly boondoggle to put a man on the moon. The side benefit to that space race was all the tech spillover into our daily lives. While I too grumble about safety and environmental regulations interfering with my ICE powered fun, the reality is mandating those things drove design, and got us cars that can do 150 mph all day long with the cruise control and A/C on. They can also do that with a 200,000 mile plus service life. Those were elite supercar speeds at one time, and the few that could do it got 8-10 MPG, and were adrenaline filled white knuckle rides. Lets look at the handgun industry for another example. They were perfectly content making 40, 60, and even 100 year old designs before the 1994 crime bill limited magazine capacity to 10 rounds. Faced with this new artificially imposed limit,their legacy high capacity designs were rendered essentially obsolete overnight. Manufacturers went back to the drawing boards out of necessity. Now that they were thinking all new rather than just slick improvements, or "nickel plated customs" of their legacy designs, they also employed new manufacturing methods. The side benefit, (or consequence, depending on your view of guns), they got smaller, more reliable, and more powerful than before the mandate. Government isn't always the best source for innovation, but they do occasionally, ( deliberately or accidentally), drive it. | ||
| Jaimec |
"Adapt or die." And I guess I shouldn't be surprised the topic has gone WAY off my original intent of discussing Erik's latest venture.  | ||
| Dstro |
Stevel, I literally work in a “silicon wafer factory” as you put it- which tells me that you don’t. I promise I know more than you on the subject. Sorry to gloss over your most recent response, I’m busy during the day. If I have time, I’ll try to address your claims again tonight. Other folks should feel free to take my place though! Plenty of corrections to go around. Saying that you like electric vehicles because you have a Segway sounds like saying you like MotoGP because you have a Vespa. It sounds like you stopped considering society’s technological progress about 20 years ago. I assure you that it has gone on regardless of your notice. I know the links I provided are good references and worth reading. It is why I put them there. I suggest you read them for the first time. Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what you do, the pigeon is just gonna crap on the board and strut around like they own the place anyway. Not sure whether your government comment was directed as a response to me or the forum in general, but I think that is convoluting a whole different can of worms, so I’m not going to comment there. Feel free to cherry-pick parts of my response to misrepresent in your reply as you see fit. | ||
| Dstro |
Sorry Jamiec! Didn’t go to read this thread with the intentions of getting on a soapbox. Just not a fan of ignorance when voiced so loudly. Next thing you know people are gonna start thinking vaccines cause autism! I think that Fuell has a good and pragmatic approach to the market, so I am cautiously optimistic. And I’m sure the price point is going to be a lot closer to the mark than HD! | ||
| Gregtonn |
Dstro, I spent three years designing machines to manufacture silicon wafers. Some of the gases used are known as "one step" gases. Why? Because they are so toxic. G Maybe someone needs to start a new thread. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Dstro, I also suspect that factory is the one built a few hundred yards behind my exes house in Oregon. My son paid for his college tuition working there. G | ||
| Willmrx |
This thread has been very informative and I have enjoyed reading very smart peoples opinions. I sincerely mean that! But, the 8th grader in me feels this way.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbJDjNLzv8U | ||
| Jaimec |
Trying to get back on topic here: The "Fuell" effort is quite different from Erik's previous ventures. I doubt anyone here is his target market. He is not trying to build a world-beating sport bike here. They are not trying to become the next Energica or Lightning. What they are trying to do is build a TOOL (not a toy) that can be used in crowded urban environments where speeds are low, congestion is high, and parking spaces are at a premium. Europe and Asia already has the proper mindset for this. It is in the US where they'll have a hard sell because to MOST Americans, motorcycles are toys, and not proper motor vehicles. Most of us (and there are exceptions like me) do not use our motorcycles for day to day transportation; we take them out on weekends to blast around local roads, hang out with our friends and head out to the track. They're going to need a marketing team coming up with the next "You meet the nicest people..." campaign in order to create riders out of people who are just set on driving their cars (or taking mass transit) no matter how inconvenient or impractical it might be. | ||
| Stevel |
Jaime, I wish Erik well in his new venture, but he has some serious obstacles in his way. You state electric bikes are accepted in Asia ans Europe. I'm sorry to say that is not true. They may be more acceptable in warmer climes, but even there, range anxiety is a crippler. Remember today, the battery of choice is still the LiPO4 and their temperature performance and survivability below 10C is a real show stopper. These battery's life is seriously curtailed with just exposure to cold temperatures, not just usage, just exposure. These batteries also require a sophisticated battery manager and sensors, which makes the batteries very expensive when properly deployed. Buyer beware. Not every user will be able to park his new electric bike in a heated environment at both ends of his journeys. Another issue is that the manufacturers of these toys do not inform the buyer of these frailties, as it hurts their competitiveness and bottom line. Sooner or later, every customer will learn of these unadvertised issues, which will leave a very bad taste in the consumer's mouth. Many of these issues could disappear with better battery chemistry, but there isn't any better than LiPO4 available at the moment and until there is, these things will remain toys. I'm certain there will be a lot of folks on this forum that will disagree with my position. I accept that, but we will see who is correct over time. (Message edited by steve-l on March 21, 2019) | ||
| Jaimec |
No, I didn't say Europe and Asia have accepted electric bikes. You misread what I said. To paraphrase what I said, Europe and Asia have the mindset that motorcycles and scooters are looked at as valid forms of every day transportation. In the US, the majority of the population look at them as TOYS. Especially in congested cities, you see enormous numbers of motorcycles and scooters compared to automobiles. In Barcelona, motorcycles and scooters were EVERYWHERE. Parked along every inch of curbing, on sidewalks and parking lots. Here in the US, the only time you see something like that is during Daytona Bike Week, Laconia or Sturgis. In this environment, electric bikes will SHINE. Range anxiety is only a concern if you want to take TRIPS. Bopping along in an urban environment from home to your place of work and back is no cause for range anxiety. Stop thinking like an American motorcyclist and think like those people who find 250cc more than enough for their needs. Electrics also resolve the noise issue lots of urban communities experience as well as air quality from excessive exhaust fumes. It may be a tough sell here in the US, but abroad I believe it'll be much easier. The hard part is keeping the costs down. It is easy to point out that over the long run, electrics are cheaper to own, but there is still that big financial hit on the initial purchase that people have to get past. Maybe a leasing model would work best. At the end of the lease, the bike is returned and the battery could be recycled, a new one installed and the vehicle becomes available for the next user. Lots of possibilities there. | ||
| Jaimec |
By the way, as far as temperature is concerned: I can only base this on my own experience BUT: I've ridden my Zero all winter here. Although the projected range is definitely lower than what I see in the summer it is still more than enough for me to make my round trip, 34 mile (mostly highway) commute to and from work. I discovered I also have more than enough capacity to power my electric vest without any real hit to my range (the "hit" from the cold temperature is greater). When I get home, I plug in immediately to recharge. Despite the ambient atmospheric temperature, after riding 17 miles at highway speed the battery has enough heat in it to accept the charge, and charging it keeps it heated so it does fully charge. I only had one problem so far this winter that was temperature related. When I went to Las Vegas, I left the bike unplugged (no need to charge it if it wasn't going to be used). When I came home, I plugged it back in so it would be ready to go the next day. The ambient temperature was 24F. The next morning I discovered it hadn't charged at ALL... it was still sitting at 71%. Fortunately that was still enough of a charge for me to commute back and forth to work but I didn't go out to lunch. When I got home and plugged it back in, it charged up normally overnight. So, maybe in Scandinavian countries they might not be practical but for the majority of Europe and Asia they'll work just fine. Aerostich (in Duluth, MN) did a blog a few years ago: "Zero on a Zero" where they used a Zero FXS to commute with over winter in Duluth. Interesting reading if you can find it. It used to be online where you could've read it for free, but I think they sell it in book form now. | ||
| Airbozo |
When I lived in Colorado, I routinely had to plug in my vehicle in the winter or it would not start in the morning due to either a frozen battery or frozen oil (OK not frozen, but too thick to move), so that's nothing new to the cold weather crowd. | ||
| Stevel |
Jaime, Thanks for the Zero feedback. I meant to ask that question and forgot. I have experienced the same thing with my Segway. Segways have dual 72 volt batteries. Each with built in intelligent battery manager and charger and then sealed. These batteries are built with the standard Panasonic LiPO4 cells. The average lifespan of these is about 5 years. With abuse, the lifespan can be much less, but with care to not let them get cold and charging immediately after use, the batteries can last longer. I'm working on my 8th year now and keeping my fingers crossed, as they are more than $1000 each and both have to be changed together. I store my Segway in heated space. The biggest issue in Europe is parking and security, even with bikes. People with electric bikes park their bikes in bike parking which is everywhere, but those spaces do not have power, nor are they heated. So people will remove the battery and carry it inside to their working space or home to keep them warm and charged. It's hard to do that with a scooter or motorcycle. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...temperature performance and survivability below 10C is a real show stopper. Hardly. 10C is 50F. Perhaps you meant -10C (14F). Most places where motorcycles and mopeds are a primary mode of transport seldom drop that low. When they do people adapt. G | ||
| Stevel |
G, No mistake, 10C Check the manufacturer's specs yourself. There is also a clear caution warning from Segway in their user guide, but just like Jaime said, once they are warm they can be used below 10C. Just don't let them cool off. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Hmmm...Seems like we have come full circle with the EV vs. ICE debate for Ciemny02 in Iceland where the average daily temps seldom exceed 10C.  https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/iceland G |
