| Author | Message | ||
     Ace117 |
Trying to Spread the word Myself and George Dan over on FB (hes also on EBR forum as gdisaac07 http://ebrforum.com/member.php?1288-gdisaac07) we have been in the works with L.A. Sleeve working a deal to start getting cylinders sleeved for our bikes. I have 40 cylinders along with new connecting rods and pistons which I ame selling as complete kits. We have got the ball rolling but need to send in all the cylinders in order to get it done, there is a kick start up ( https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ebr-1190rx-sx-c ylinder-sleeving-kit#/backers ) to fund the project. My FB is below. Check out the FB post for more info. I have been in contact with George Dan about sending all the cylinders to L.A. Sleeves to get sleeved. George got word back from L.A. Sleeve and we are a go to have the cylinders done. From the looks of it EBR was already in the works with them but it fell apart once they shut down. The sleeves will basically be the OEM fix EBR had in the works. I will be be sending off the cylinders and shipping everything as a kit those who partake. This is a great opportunity to reestablish relationship ruined by the EBR receivership. From George Dan: I talked with Dave. He is 100% leaning towards going with the spun-cast ductile. He says it's extremely strong, and he'd be comfortable with thicknesses as small as 1.50mm wall thickness. For reference, the stock aluminum sleeves in the 1190 are 3.48mm, and the 1125 has 4.5. By that, he thinks we could get 1340cc out of the motor with just boring and sleeves. That being said, we're going to stick with the stock 3.48mm sleeves and make them out of spun-cast ductile iron. This will make them bomb proof. It means we can run the engine at full attack on a race track without worrying about the engine blowing up. This is an OEM design essentially. The only downside to going with ductile over aluminum is that the cylinders will run slightly hotter. Aluminum is a better heat conductor than ductile iron. But the stock cooling system is sized for it. Cylinder set pricing: $900 for complete set of 2 stock cylinders, 2 rods, 2 pistons, and wrist pins/circlips $1500 for complete set of 2 upgraded cylinders, 2 rods, 2 pistons, and wrist pins/circlips. I will need 10 paid pre-orders in order to be able to do the sleeving. The reason for 10 is because I only have 10 complete sets. I will have 1 new cylinder and 1 new piston left over, 9 used cylinders, 8 rod sets, 1 lonely Rod and 4 new 1125 cylinders. The sets will be race-ready and the cylinder cracking issues will be 100% a thing of the past. | ||
| Stevel |
Jorge, Your enthusiasm for this project is admirable and very welcome. I have also used LA Sleeve products for many years and I can attest that they are as good as they come and are great guys to do business with. You speak as if the biggest problem with the cylinder is cracking.......it isn't. The issue is MUCH bigger than cracking. I have contributed to several threads over this cylinder issue in the past. Please read those for a more complete understanding. My only question to you is "How much testing has been done on this mod?" | ||
| Mcuchy29 |
Hi Steve, Shane Myers from the facebook forum built the race engines for AMA and late in the piece for the EBR wsbk team. His opinion is that stress on the cylinder spigot at max rpm or consistently above 8000rpm is unacceptable on the 1190 due to the bore size increase from 1125 and that this would be a cause of failure which the sleeving would remedy but as you stated untested. what are your thoughts on the cylinder spigot weakness? Cheers Mark. | ||
| Stevel |
Mark, The problems are many. Shane is spot on correct. First the cylinder is not designed for a larger bore than the original 103 mm. The bore itself is simply too thin. Note also that the design uses an open deck, so the only bore support at the top is only on the chain case side of the casting. The bore is adequately supported at the bottom of the casting, but not the top due to the open deck. If that wasn't enough, consider that the engine is an integral part of the chassis. Those chassis forces must travel through the front cylinder casting. The net result is that the bore moves around and does not maintain concentricity. This is not conjecture, I have seen evidence of this motion. Add to that high cylinder temperatures, high compression ratios and you have leaks, blown head gaskets, blow by and cracked castings. So, what did we witness in WSB? Exactly that. I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but dealing with the apparent challenges is going to be really difficult. I see the only real fix is a new casting with a conventional closed deck. I am also certain that others think the same way, but you are talking about serious money for the re-engineering that simply wasn't there. Now, will an iron sleeve fix all the issues, no it won't, but it will fix some and introduce a new one. Piston heat. The diminished thermocouple at the aluminum iron interface due to the differences in the coefficient of expansion differences between the ductile iron and aluminum casting will cause a rise of temperature at the piston, How much, who knows? Will it be a problem? Who knows? It's called testing. | ||
| Mcuchy29 |
Thanks Steve, I am going the testing route. While this is getting off the ground would it be worth getting a coating on the surface of the piston to aid in dissipating heat and if so do you have any suggestions from your experience? Regards, Mark | ||
| Stevel |
Mark, At this moment in time, piston coatings are being kept close to the chest. They are trade secrets. They do work. Some are better than others. These coatings are usually ceramic vapor depositions, but not all. The piston must be sized and surface conditioned for the coating being used. Your only choice as a customer is to choose the coating of choice by the piston manufacturer or not. I'm going to stick my neck out here. There are no modern slipper skirt piston forgings available in the size range we need for this engine anywhere in the USA......none. These type pistons are only available as CNC billets in the US. Billet pistons, those cut from a solid block, are not as strong or thermally stable as a blank forging of the same material. Piston forgings are available in Austria, Germany and Italy, but only in AL2618. Most of the manufacturers have minimum orders of their pistons in lots of hundreds and thousands. However, Pistal in Italy have a minimum lot size of 4 each. So, my design was based on their forging. I elected to have my piston skirts coated and the ring lands hard anodized to prevent pressure welding. Pistal also provided the rings and DLC coated wrist pins. Pistal pricing is not inexpensive, but I think very fair.......I'm a fan. These skirt coatings are not there for heat dissipation. Heat dissipation occurs through the piston to rings to cylinder bore as the primary cooling path, plus oil spray to the bottom of the piston if available. Skirt coatings are there to reduce friction with the bore. I would expect a temperature rise at the center of the piston of somewhere between 30 and 50 degrees C with the use of an iron sleeve. (Message edited by steve-l on April 06, 2018) | ||
| Phelan |
Actually CP specifically told and offered George forged pistons for the 108mm bore. There is talk on this post on FB about a 109 or 110mm bore for extreme applications like drag/grudge racing, but at least for the 110mm bore they were specific about that size being a billet blank. | ||
| Stevel |
Ross, Yes, CP does have some forgings available, but the ones they have invested in are primarily designed for American V8 engines. That is where their majority customers lie. Can these forgings be adapted to motorcycles? Perhaps, but they would not be my first choice. Compare CP's designs with Pistal or Capricorn forgings yourself. I think the choice is pretty obvious. If this audience is serious about fixing this cylinder issue, we should be talking to a few aluminum foundries and get a price on new patterns for a new casting. With enough interest, the correct solution would be within reach. The correct solution would be a new casting with a closed deck and an integral ductile iron sleeve cast into the casting. | ||
| Ducbsa |
"an integral ductile iron sleeve cast into the casting." Like this? https://books.google.com/books?id=1zykqE-UN2QC&pg= PA305&lpg=PA305&dq=alfin+motorcycle+cylinder&sourc e=bl&ots=D5_7HNzhvj&sig=wKlS47ETsVg7LCO4cMswqGNb7S M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwik9vDq9KfaAhVBylMKHQFSCG8Q 6AEIXjAN#v=onepage&q=alfin%20motorcycle%20cylinder &f=false | ||
| Stevel |
Similar. It is the way most motorcycle cylinders are cast. Of course ours would require a water jacket. It is also possible to use a wet liner design, like the Detroit Diesels have used, where the cylinder liner is sealed to the casting with "O" rings. | ||
| Mcuchy29 |
Hi Stevel, it looks like the sleeving process has another opportunity to get off the ground. Having read all the important information you have been gracious enough to supply, Is it possible to machine a drop in bridge type support for the front cylinder to help maintain/ improve support for the casting and concentricity. Regards, Mark. | ||
| Dannybuell |
There are three design patterns that i know of: open deck~ The cylinders have no upper support and float from the base. semi-closed deck~ The Cylinder Has a Bridges that secure the cylinders to the block. closed deck~ the cylinder is completely supported https://www.google.com/search?q=ford+2.3+open+deck +brace&rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS722US722&tbm=isch&source=iu &ictx=1&fir=v64gWzMDQLTtQM%253A%252CBRS7q8YZFzdukM %252C_&usg=__L84VxWjQbpUCRCyskmv2lgaWTpk%3D&sa=X&v ed=2ahUKEwj0l4bjvL_cAhU3IDQIHcmXB8QQ9QEwAXoECAYQBA #imgrc=v64gWzMDQLTtQM: | ||
| Stevel |
Mark, That is correct and it is my approach to the problem. It isn't ideal, but I think it will help. The spacer should extend from one side of the chain case to the other. I intend to mill that slot circumferentially around the top of the cylinder, then machine the bridge to a slip fit. The bridge would then be drilled for the cooling water passage. At installation time, setting the bridge in place with Loctite is probably the best we can do without having a new casting. | ||
| Mcuchy29 |
Hi Stevel, I am willing to purchase the spacer from you. My thinking is if you’re making one for yourself, then making two would hopefully be ok. Let me know how you go. My email is mcuchy@hotmail.com Cheers, Mark. | ||
| Stevel |
Mark, these things are not a bolt in part. I would have to have the cylinder to do the milling. Then hand make and fit the custom bridge for each cylinder. I don't know of any other way. I have my own machine shop, so I can do this, but let me do a couple, take photos and we'll see from there. | ||
| Shoggin |
I get the fun of the engineering exercise (for some) but it seems like a ton of effort and money for an engine that has proven to be very very reliable. I count 3 failures?* In a sub-$9k motorcycle. *I don't facebook. The stories I know are that 2 were modified by the same guy and in a track only bike. One was 'missed a few shifts and bounced off the rev limiter' at 600 miles, all while being too full of oil. | ||
| Shoggin |
Personally, I'll get her valves adjusted in a timely manner, feed her fresh oil, and make sure she's warm before I beat on her. Then not worry at all. Good luck Steve. I hope your EBR engine re-design goes as planned, hope you get out riding soon  | ||
| Dannybuell |
The Folks Hot Rodding The Ford Ecoboost 2.3 take an open deck and close it with an insert that has the right number of holes for cooling. https://www.google.com/search?q=Ford+Ecoboost+2.3+ deck+insert&rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS722US722&tbm=isch&tbo= u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjC5KCw9MTcAhUGIjQIHX xnDc4QsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1680&bih=937 (Message edited by dannybuell on July 30, 2018) |
