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Chainsaw
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:19 am: | 
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...The tech @ Buell said something interesting. It might be from altitude changes
Doubtful IMHO. I've got 12000k on my stock XB and I have never had the TPS Re-zeroed. I have taken the bike from 5000 feet in elevation to 14000+ feet in elevation in a matter of hours without any trouble.  |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:24 am: |
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I've always had a background interest in a GS someday. Got a link to a good discussion/info board for Beemers?
Koz,
I didn't know that about Autozones, good to know. Would have saved an indirect relative a few hundred dollars in the last six months alone on his GMC pickup. |
Daves
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:28 am: |
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Make that Buell dealerships, thank you.
I did not say the "do it yourself" types shouldn't be able to work on their own bikes(although plenty of people should not even be allowed to own tools).
I have, from the start of this thread, and continue to feel that it is being blown out of proportion by some of the members.
The problem, I "think" is that once you have a tool/laptop/PDA or whatever, that can reset the TPS you would also be able to alter things that could cause great harm to your motor.
That is one reason the "racer only" black box is not available to the general population at this time,there may be other reasons too.
So I look at it like this, you'd spend 400-1000(maybe more) to get a thingamajig that lets you reset your own TPS, you then start changing other things and blow up your motor! In most cases, who's going to get blamed? Well, Buell of course, what a POS those bikes are, I should sue them,I want a new bike for free,I'm going to buy a Honda, so on and so on.
All to save about 300.00 or so for the life of the bike(assuming reset every 10,000 miles and 100,000 miles bike life)
It's just not worth it if you ask me. YMMV.
Ride to the edge!
Dave
daves@h-dappleton.com |
Davefl
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:53 am: |
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I do not want a full functioned digital tech. All we are asking for is a way to reset the TPS that is all. Writing the code is not the hard part, knowing what language to write it in is.
By the way the word warranty and my bikes have not been mentioned together in a long time and if I mess something up in my bike Buell has all the right in the world to tell me to go get bent. If my bike were still under warranty I might feel a bit deferent about this.
edited by davefl on May 12, 2004 |
Davefl
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:57 am: |
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Ok Buell dealerships then. The $300 over the life of the bike does not take into account what it cost me to get my bike to the dealer. I do most of my own work not because I am cheep with money but the time is the main issue. I have to take into account how much my time is worth to me and then add it to the bill. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 11:20 am: |
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Not a specific procedure that I am aware of...That's all there is to it.
Thanks Again Gregg.
The problem, I "think" is that once you have a tool/laptop/PDA or whatever, that can reset the TPS you would also be able to alter things that could cause great harm to your motor.
Hell, Dave, it ain't gotta be as technical as that to ruin a motor. I got a whole tool box of tools that will allow me to ruin my bike, all ya need is a repair manual, a few tools, and skip a page while yer workin' on the thing, or not read the entire instructions before you start have a beer and forget where you left off ect...
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Henrik
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 11:20 am: |
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Gregg, Dave; you're absolutely correct. I know for a fact, that I know just enough to be a danger to myself (and my bikes)  and I have more tools than I probably should have If a TPS reset tool should become available - and we screw it up, don't come crying to Buell.
But ... I'm ready to assume responsibility if/when I screw something up, in return for the satisfaction of fixing stuff myself. All my bikes are way out of warranty, and I don't mind a bit.
Henrik
(Ohhh-ho-ho-hooo, Tooools!) |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 11:25 am: |
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Perhaps all we/some/all are asking for is something similar to a ctrl/alt/delete function to reset and rezero the bike's systems. They could even hide the button and require a 1.72mm diameter rod to activate it with, even make it red and hide it behind a screw if they want to.
The thing that killed my interest in the older f.i. bikes was running out of gas and having to do a pseudo reset once refueled. It's not always possible to ride at a steady even speed for some set distance or time to allow the system to relearn itself. Not that I run out of gas all that much, just three times this year so far, but it was the only reason I needed to stay carb'd.
Food for thought, pass the gas please.  |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 03:09 pm: |
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I've always had a background interest in a GS someday. Got a link to a good discussion/info board for Beemers?
www.advrider.com
They are a lively, rude, obnoxious bunch in an innocuous sort of way, but you can learn alot about the bike there. Just beware of the forum titled "Joe Momma". Anything goes in that forum except porn. All other forums are reasonably safe.
Enjoy! |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 03:13 pm: |
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Thanks. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 03:14 pm: |
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pass the gas please |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 07:12 am: |
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quote:The problem, I "think" is that once you have a tool/laptop/PDA or whatever, that can reset the TPS you would also be able to alter things that could cause great harm to your motor.
So HD will gladly sell you exactly that (for about $500) for your Big Twin/Vrod, but they won't sell it to you Buell owners to save you from yourself? Or maybe we're too cheap and there are not enough of us to make it profitable.
Does Buell think Buell owners are dumber than HD owners? I think they do, especially if you read the latest FUELL where the race ECM is discussed and they basically say "Leave it to the people who know what they are doing"
So HD owners know, and Buell owners don't, based on who they will sell the FI tuner software for. |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 11:18 am: |
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So HD owners know, and Buell owners don't, based on who they will sell the FI tuner software for.
I think you are drawing an inaccurate conclusion. Perhaps the real reason is that Harley was watching their customers spend mega bucks on Power Commanders, and someone at the motor company decided they could offer something better and make money on it. It's not quite the same for Buell. So far there probably aren't enough units out there to justify the expense of making a race tuners kit for Buell, but keep in mind I don't speak for the motor company-I'm just speculating.
edited by bigbird on May 13, 2004 |
Oconnor
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:08 pm: |
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They should come out with it. You can get pda OBD and OBD II scanners for any car that will reset ce lights and and all the codes. Not to mention show everything that the engine is doing and the computer is reading. But you can't change or remap anything. And they are only about a $140. Not including a PDA of course.
That was the best upgrade other than racing school for when I raced cars. It was cheap data logging.
Anyways. Buell could and should release something like that. It wouls be a disc and a wire harness that went from pda or lap top to wherever it plugs in on the bike. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:46 pm: |
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Well, there is a third party company that seems to have a lot of experience with this sort of thing that is doing just that.
It shouldn't be too much longer. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 03:56 pm: |
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quote:So far there probably aren't enough units out there to justify the expense of making a race tuners kit for Buell, but keep in mind I don't speak for the motor company-I'm just speculating
That is surely a factor, I agree with you about that.
But from a Buell owner's perspective, when you look at the Screaming Eagle section of the HD catalog and compare what they sell for Sportsters and FI bikes to what Buell sells in their catalog, it's hard to rationalize it that way. You are more likely feel it's one more example of how Buell is not supported or even considered equal within the mother ship.
They can get it, we can't. |
Yeahcmon
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 05:50 pm: |
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Bigbird, I'm lookin in the wiring manual and the grey ecu terminal receives serial data input on pin 11 and transmits serial data on pin 12. I see on the grey ecu terminal that pin 1 is the 5v sensor power and pin 7 is the sensor ground. Pin b on the tps appears to be the output voltage to the ecu to let the ecu see the position that the sensor is sensing. You said that the DT sends the ECU a command to reset the ecu internal tps reading to zero. Wouldn't un-connecting and reconnecting the ecu terminals reset that internal voltage to zero? Page 4-89 of the service manual states that if the ecu was replaced with a NEW component it will be necessary to recal the tps. Page 102 states that after changing the tps a calibration is required. If the ecu does indeed remember the tps cal voltage then why would you have to reset the tps after a tps change. You said that during a tps cal the tps sensor NEVER GETS TOUCHED. I would think that if you just changed the tps sensor and DID NO OTHER MAINTENANCE, such as adjusting the throttle, that a tps cal would be un-necessary. With that said it seems that there are some loopholes in this system. I would think a new ecu from buell would come set to zero. If thats the case then you could cal the tps without the DT if you knew what voltages to look for. With an ecu thats in the bike it sounds like a different story. If the ecu remembers its last tps voltage while being totally disconnected from the bike, then it looks like the DT is the only way. But, if it looses that information and goes back to null we may have something to work with. Just my thoughts. |
Fst_tyms
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 05:59 pm: |
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That was kinda what I was thinkin. Like with my truck. I can reset the computer by disconnecting the battery and leaving the lights turned on for about 20 minutes. This drains all remaining charge in the computer and it then resets itself. I asked earlier if the Buell computer reacted the same way. |
Captainplanet
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 06:18 pm: |
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You don't need to do a tps reset just because you remove the ecm and then put the same ecm back in. You only need to do the reset if you put in a ecm that has never had a tps reset on your bike before. |
Darthane
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 08:32 pm: |
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Fst_tymes,
The answer to your question, at least in my experience, is no. I've had the battery ouot for over an hour on my XB9R and didn't need to reset anything.
The battery will have been out of it for 9 months or so by the next time I turn it over, though, and that might be a different story. |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 11:15 pm: |
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Wouldn't un-connecting and reconnecting the ecu terminals reset that internal voltage to zero?
No. That would be no different than disconnecting the battery, which does not affect the ECU's memory of TPS calibration.
Page 4-89 of the service manual states that if the ecu was replaced with a NEW component it will be necessary to recal the tps. Page 102 states that after changing the tps a calibration is required. If the ecu does indeed remember the tps cal voltage then why would you have to reset the tps after a tps change.
Yes, both of those statements are true. The reason it should be recalibrated when replacing the TPS is to compensate for whatever physical and/or electronic (internal resistance) differences there may be between the old TPS and the new TPS. Furthermore if the TPS recalibration was done at some point beforehand with a worn or faulty TPS (this is likely, since recalibration might have been part of the diagnostic path to figure out the original TPS was faulty) recalibration would again be necessary to restore things to their proper settings. I hope I'm making sense!
I would think a new ecu from buell would come set to zero. If thats the case then you could cal the tps without the DT if you knew what voltages to look for.
Who knows what a new ECU is set to? Even if it was set to "zero" you still can't physically adjust the TPS without modifying the TPS AND confirming that your modification won't allow the TPS to move too far (internally) in either direction.
The TPS calibration value is stored in some sort of a PROM or flash memory. It is retained without an external power source. I suspect the "zero" you refer to for a new ECU's TPS calibration isn't really zero. There just might not be any data stored there, who knows? Regardless, at this point it seems this would be an awful lot to go through to avoid that one trip to the dealer every 10,000 miles 
Once again I'll make the suggestion that you are better off to wait until the aftermarket provides a GOOD solution, or visit your dealer occasionally. Hacking on your TPS/ECU/induction module seems like the worst of the three choices to me. |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 04:55 am: |
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There is still some confusion about what a "tps reset" in Buell terms means. I am not a Buell tech, but will try to give a clear and simple description that may help others and/or new Buell owners.
It appears that individual throttle position sensors do not put out the same voltages, they simply have to be within a certain range to be acceptable by the factory. They are a mechanical device with a resistance winding (or resistive film) and a moving contact or "wiper" which moves up and down the resistance as the throttle plate shaft rotates. There is a 5V input from the ecm to one end of the resistance winding, the other end goes to ground. As the throttle is opened the wiper moves up the resistance winding giving output voltages from around 1 volt to around 5V.
If we have a brand new bike with new ecm and new tps, since all the tps's are slightly different the ecm could not possibly know what exact voltage to expect from the tps. So the ecm has to be "told" via the Dig Tech what the tps voltage is with the throttle plate fully closed (not at idle, but completely closed with the idle speed screw wound right out). On my bike this is 0.921V. This gives the ecm a base to work from, it now knows that NO air is flowing at this base voltage, and that fuel will be needed incrementally above this voltage. This voltage is critical to the proper running of the bike.
Now if the new owner fits a race ecm, that new race ecm will also need to be "told" that base tps voltage value for it to work properly.
Also, after 10k miles, the tps output *may* have drifted slightly due to wear on the resistance winding, the wiper, or maybe in the coupling to the throttle plate shaft, so it needs to be checked again.
So basically any ecm, when first fitted to your bike, needs to be reset with the particular tps output voltage on your bike. The ecm will never forget that voltage unless it gets another "tps reset".
One idea that occurred to me is that an owner with a good DMM could check the tps base voltage right after a dealer tps reset, and then after 10k miles measure this voltage again - if it was still exactly the same then a routine tps reset would not be required. This would at least save taking the bike in for no reason.
So it looks to me like the tps reset should be called an ecm/tps reset, since the tps itself is not changed or adjusted. Hope this info gleaned from some corners of BWB and personal experience helps a few understand a little more. |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 06:36 am: |
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The ecm will never forget that voltage unless it gets another "tps reset".
Theoretically that is true, but in reality I don't know. I suppose it could be possible in rare cases for the ECU to get scrambled since I've seen this happen at least once. But I couldn't tell you what caused it.
One idea that occurred to me is that an owner with a good DMM could check the tps base voltage right after a dealer tps reset, and then after 10k miles measure this voltage again - if it was still exactly the same then a routine tps reset would not be required. This would at least save taking the bike in for no reason.
I disagree for two reasons. First, even if the base TPS voltage is the same you haven't accounted for any changes or wear to the TPS or throttle plate shaft. Part of the reset procedure involves snapping the throttle open & closed a few times to find absolute zero. As wear occurs that absolute zero point may change. That change has to be accounted for and reset.
The second reason I disagree is because the AFV should be reset at the same time. My XB9S ran noticeably better after I did this on Tuesday. I suspected it was running a little rich prior to the reset, and the old AFV value of 111% confirmed my suspicion. Perhaps it was that way from cold weather riding and it might have moved leaner over time in warmer weather, but the AFV reset did make a difference in my situation. |
Yeahcmon
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 09:54 am: |
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Bigbird, Thanks for the input and technical explination. I'm still gonna try though. Wish me luck. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 11:19 am: |
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Not a good idea. |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 06:22 pm: |
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"One idea that occurred to me is that an owner with a good DMM could check the tps base voltage right after a dealer tps reset, and then after 10k miles measure this voltage again - if it was still exactly the same then a routine tps reset would not be required."
I disagree for two reasons. First, even if the base TPS voltage is the same you haven't accounted for any changes or wear to the TPS or throttle plate shaft. Part of the reset procedure involves snapping the throttle open & closed a few times to find absolute zero. As wear occurs that absolute zero point may change.
Yes, that's the whole point, you measure the tps base voltage after 10k miles to see if it HAS drifted due to wear or whatever. If that voltage has not shifted then no tps reset required. (To measure the tps base voltage, as you say, and as stated in the FM, the throttle has to be snapped close a few times with the idle speed screw wound out). |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 06:45 pm: |
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Yes, that's the whole point, you measure the tps base voltage after 10k miles to see if it HAS drifted due to wear or whatever. If that voltage has not shifted then no tps reset required.
Actually it's not the whole point. What I keep trying to explain ( and perhaps I'm not doing a very good job) is that even though you could theoretically verify the tps voltage has not shifted AT THE TPS you still cannot verify if the zero point has changed inside the ECU's memory. It would not be wise to assume that the zero point inside the ECU cannot change-I have seen it happen at least once before for reasons unexplained. Your method may be able to prove that there has been no appreciable wear or degredation of the TPS or induction module, but it still cannot tell you what TPS voltage value the ECU thinks is the zero point. The only way to know that value is to use software to read the ECU's output with the throttle plates completely closed, because the ECU's output is in the form of a data stream.
I really don't know any other way to explain it, but this "alternate" method is simply not covering all of the bases. I am nearly 100% sure the only way to deal with this issue is to use a DT system or an aftermarket equivalent. If you come up with some other way to read the ECU's data stream please let us all know.
Although some folks at HD might not want me to say this, I hope you do figure it out. I like being able to work on my stuff at home too. I just hope you realize that quite simply put, you aren't there yet, but I wish you the best of luck figuring it out. |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 07:07 pm: |
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Bigbird - good point, can't argue with that. Learning how the ecm operates has been a long tedious process, I feel I'm only about 30% of the way. Thanks for your input. |
Fullpower
| | Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 08:51 pm: |
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the tps output voltage is an analog signal. the closed throttle "zero" value stored in the ecm does not require battery power. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 01:45 am: |
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How can the zero value not require battery power to be stored? Unless I'm forgetting something... any volatile memory (memory that can be changed) requires constant current. If it's non-volatile it's an integrated circuit which can't be changed. I'm probably forgetting a type of memory . |
Dcmortalcoil
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 01:55 am: |
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M1,
It's called EEPROM. Non-volatile programmable memory, like compact flash on digital cameras. It can be rewritten (rewritable) & retains memory pretty much indefinitely without power. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 02:50 am: |
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Gotcha. I knew I was forgetting something... Sheesh, and so basic. |
Opto
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 05:19 am: |
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I trust most microprocessors with their memories to retain a stored digital value, and most analogue to digital converters to stay in calibration... |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 01:09 pm: |
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For the search engines:
For 2008 and later Buell twins TPS reset is built-in and very simple.
Buell TPS Reset/Rezero Procedure for 2008 & later Buell XBikes and 1125R/CR motorcycles:
The Buell TPS reset for 2008, 2009, or 2010 Buell twins is simple but requires that you precisely perform the following procedure, step-by-step, exactly as described:
0. Begin with the the ignition off, key out, and the run/stop switch in the "stop/off" position.
1. Switch the Run/Stop switch to the "Run" position.
2. Insert ingition key and turn it to the "on" position. Do not start or turn over the engine.
3. Rotate the throttle grip from the closed throttle position to the wide open throttle position hold for one second then rotate back to closed position and hold for one second. Repeat that exact throttle action two more times (three total open/hold-closed/hold cycles) holding the throttle grip gently against each stop for one full second.
4. Cycle the key off and back on.
You've just completed a TPS reset for your 2008 or later Buell motorcycle. Start your bike and ride. |
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