| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
http://www.carblogindia.com/hero-hx250r-launch/ EBR supposedly had this bike to the ~99+% completion stage at the time they entered receivership. All Hero had to do was take the plans and test mules back to India and do a little fine tuning. Now, ~3 years since the prototype was shown, Hero has given up trying to bring the bike to market. Important safety tip- Make sure you really know WTF you're doing before you try to screw over your technology partner or it will bite you in the a**. | ||
| Crusty |
If you f**k with the bull, you get the horn. Technologically speaking. He, he, he... | ||
| Ducbsa |
I see a badwebber commented well on the linked story. IMHO, Hero was unscrupulous in buying 49% ownership from EBR in bad faith with a strategy to shaft Erik when they thought the time was right. It appears that he suspected as much and was prepared legally and IP-wise. I assume the bankruptcy papers that EBR filed so quickly took time to prepare and were sitting in a desk drawer ready to go. | ||
| Court |
That just does either true or sincere . . . Frankly . . . HERO blew it. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
"I see a badwebber commented well on the linked story" Thank you for the kind words Bruce. | ||
| Ducbsa |
Former neighbor in Apple Valley! | ||
| Midknyte |
What pieces or IP could they be missing that after 2 (3?) years of trotting this thing out on stage they can't fill in? https://youtu.be/HuxJqIs2a-Y (Message edited by midknyte on December 19, 2017) | ||
| Snacktoast |
Frankly . . . HERO blew it. This sums it up quite well. That bike was nearly turn-key at shut down. What a waste. After all that transpired, I'm glad they won't make a cent off of the work that went into it. | ||
| Ducbsa |
"What pieces or IP could they be missing that after 2 (3?) years of trotting this thing out on stage they can't fill in? " That is a mystery; Hero makes millions of bikes for families to ride on, so they know how to tool up for production. | ||
| Stevel |
My "gut" says that it wasn't IP issues that prevented the new models coming to market. I suspect that the necessary manufacturing technologies are not available in India. India is very much 3rd world. Things we now take for granted like aluminum pressure casting don't exist in India. This technology is very expensive to implement. EBR's designs require the newest tech. Add to that the volatility of the Rupee in relation to first world currencies and the problem becomes very risky indeed. If the required tech has to be imported, manufacturing and sustainability would suffer. | ||
| Ducbsa |
Developing the supply chain, including sub-suppliers, seems like would have been done in parallel with design, to make it compatible with what was available. Maybe it was for Hero to do and they dropped the ball. The way BMC and EBR got all the pieces subbed out across the globe impressed me. When I had a plant tour just before the XB's came out, the guide said they didn't make a single component in East Troy and for instance, the motor was "just a part number to them". From the assembly video, it does look like they assembled 1190 motors, so maybe 1125s, too. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I was thinking yesterday- while the failure to bring the HX250R certainly seems like justice for Hero, it probably hurt what’s left of EBR as well. If this bike had made it to market, it might have provided good advertising for what EBR could do and increased their chances of finding a buyer to continue the brand. | ||
| Midknyte |
Maybe, hopefully, other parts suppliers took a hint from what they did to Buell and declined to do business with them... | ||
| Mnscrounger |
Given the way Hero is spinning the story, if it had made it to market, I bet they would have buried ANY indication it came from EBR. According to Erik in a 2015 interview, there were a lot of designs on the cusp of, but not in production. I have no idea what product designs LAP still has that are of value, but if they won't produce, they diminish in value every day. I still hope one day they just give up and give it all back to Erik to do with what he chooses. He seemed to be the source of magic in the elf dust anyway. | ||
| Court |
HERO makes more bikes in a day than Harley-Davidson makes in a month. If I recall . . when EBR hooked up with them . . .they were making 34,000 bikes a day. I am led to believe that number is somewhat higher now. No clue if that's accurate . . . but the stats are all public. | ||
| Stevel |
Court, You are correct, but look at the models they make. None of those use modern manufacturing processes. | ||
| Jaimec |
As far as "Large Motorcycles" (250cc or better), I understand Royal Enfield is the biggest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. Also the oldest continuously operating motorcycle company. https://newatlas.com/royal-enfield-worlds-top-sell ing-big-bike-indian-motorcycle-market/50859/ (Message edited by jaimec on December 21, 2017) | ||
| Hughlysses |
I have a big question regarding Hero. All their models up to the EBR venture were powered by old Honda engine designs manufactured under license. They broke up with Honda shortly before courting EBR, and their license was set to expire some time about now. One of the big reasons they wanted to partner with EBR was so that they could develop new, in-house engines. Since all that fell apart, what are they going to use to power their motorcycles? | ||
| Greg_e |
Who cares what they use for engines at this point. But they will probably buy a chinese clone from something like a Yamaha TTR125 and clone it again in an even cheaper way. | ||
| 1313 |
Hugh, I'm surprised you are questioning this. Maybe because you are now retired you are slipping?  Obviously I haven't followed this further, but this press release also included Engines Engineering from Italy. Like I said, I haven't followed up on this, but I guess we could hope that with what Hero did to EBR, Engines Engineering might pull an 'MV Agusta' on Hero. Anyways, that is what I *assume* Hero will do for engines... | ||
| Rsh |
There are quite a few engine design houses out there. Some have manufacturing ability (Rotax) and other's come up with a design and shop for a builder in China and Italy for example. I don't think Hero will have trouble finding engines. Hero currently not being able to follow through with the EBR designed HX250R is not going to put them out of business as most EBR affectionado's would like. Hero now sponsors a golf tournament along with having Tiger Woods as a spokes person, making Hero look like good guys. Crazy world. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
Rsh: As the biggest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, I don't expect Hero to be one bit concerned about me, Badweb or anyone else badmouthing them. HD didn't give two bits about what Buell owners thought either, and they are an order of magnitude smaller than Hero. That won't stop me from expressing my viewpoint about their business ethics. Disclaimer: the following is based on NO inside information, it is just a rant. I can almost excuse Harley, as they were/are in a money crunch, and needed to circle the wagons to survive. I would argue discontinuing the belt buckles and drink coasters would have saved them more money, but that's for a different and older rant. Hero had money to burn, and despite that sold empty promises to EBR in exchange for hard work. "They were coming to America, and EBR was going to be the distributor for all their product lines." ( in hindsight just so much B.S.) Unlike HD, Hero didn't hit a financial wall with declining sales and falling stock prices. Hero financially undermined their tech partner, and then lit a fuse to try to implode them and take over. It wasn't a happy ending for EBR, but I'm glad it also blew up in Pawan Munjal's face, and he got NOTHING for his money. Until I have the whole true story, from a reliable insider, in print for me to re-tell accurately,that's the story I'm going with. Rant off: (now a reminder to Court) Sounds like another book is in order. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I would argue discontinuing the belt buckles and drink coasters would have saved them more money, but that's for a different and older rant." Why? Actually I'd think thats where they make a ton of their money. Cheap-made Chinese items they can sell to ANYONE. The bikes, themselves, arent cheap, these items are. Not everyone can afford a new $20k bike, but who doesnt have twenty bucks to spend on their mancave or a gift for a friend/relative? As for this - odd they wouldnt finish it. BUt I dont see how them finishing it would have ANY affect on current EBR or by not finishing it that it would have a negative impact on HERO | ||
| Upthemaiden |
I agree, HD is a t-shirt company that happens to also sell motorcycles. I think financially they'd probably do better selling kitchen towels, belt buckles, toilet paper roll holders, and garden gnomes, but of course the motorcycles have to be there for the other items to be worth anything.  As far as the differences between Hero and HD, I agree HD was having a harder time financially, but I've never really held a grudge against them for saying they couldn't afford to make Buells, it was purely the way they handled it. Supposedly they refused to let the company live on without them because they were tied up in HD financing, but otherwise Buell could've been sold to another company, or even back to Erik, instead of them paying so much to close the doors and take his name with them. | ||
| Jaimec |
Don't forget, Adventure bikes are all the rage right now, and HD shot themselves in the foot by ending the Ulysses along with the rest of Buell. When that bike was available my local dealer even told me it was the hottest bike they carried and they couldn't keep them on the floor! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Killing Buell sure seems like it was a very expensive permanent “solution “ to a short term problem. | ||
| Greg_e |
HD could make a decent adventure bike with the XG750 engine and a new frame or tweaks to the frame and suspension. Nothing stopping them except their legacy. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
To add, since we're in the Christmas/holiday time - There are multiple HD stores that I know of in an hour radius that have opened up AGAIN this year - they sell clothing and home good kind of stuff. A few parts, some chrome bits, but its just a retail outing. So, yeah, I disagree with the statement that dropping those line of things would have made them better financially. | ||
| Crusty |
While I think that the MoFoCo could make a decent Adventure bike based on the XG 750, I think that if they did, almost nobody would buy one. Just like the XR1200, XR1000, XLCR, etc. | ||
| Rsh |
I agree, I believe these days especially, HD makes more money selling there "life style" merchandise than they do selling bikes. This merchandise is not cheap, the markup must be substantial as the majority of stuff is made in China. Whenever I used to visit my HD dealer for parts or service on the Buell's, there were always people visiting from all over the world buying large quantities of merchandise to take back home with them. I would imagine this happens all over the country at the more popular HD dealers. A number of these people/groups would also rent bikes from Eagle Rider and wanted to look the part while getting the "life style" fix while visiting America and more so in this case Hollywood. |
