| Author | Message | ||
     Mrlogix |
"Erik Buell is a genius, not just a smart engineer. " real interested is seeing where the IP ends up....somewhere salvageable hopefully | ||
| Mrlogix |
oh yeah, forgot  | ||
| Glitch |
Path to the dark side fear is | ||
| Mnscrounger |
Does anyone know how many of the EBR prototype/test mules are still there? Any one of them is probably still way out of my league, but it never hurts to ask. I keep thinking about an 1190 TX and one of those might be the right platform to try it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I think the problem with all those bikes is they come with a bill of sale only; no title or manufacturer's certificate of origin. That may make it difficult or impossible to get it titled depending on your state's laws. | ||
| Court |
And buying one is a total crap shoot . . . . you have NO clue as to what you are getting. Be mindful . . these are NOT the EBR bikes that were sold to dealers and so forth. . . . these are TEST mules. To give you a sense . . . . one of the S3 Thunderbolt I tested had modified frame geometry. If some unknowing rider had jumped on it, not knowing the facts, there's a good chance you'd have been catapulted at highway speed depending on how you loaded the bike. You may be the lucky guy who buys the "slap down" bike that has been taken out on Buell Dr. . . . . cracked to 90o vertical and the rear brake stabbed a hundred or so times to prove that not even the dumbest of the dumb can compromise the structure. There is a common misconception that like media or DM bikes these things can be "sneaked" on to the road. If there was a way to legally sell them . . .they would have been sold. Also don't loose sight of the fact that you can't insure one of these either. EBR leftover are selling dirty cheap . . . something on the order of half price . . . that'd be a great place to look. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
I have no illusions Court, I know its a pig-in-a-poke situation at best. The only homework I have done on the registration side is I was told by the MN DMV it "could" be titled and licensed with a full statement of facts, a bill of sale, and contingent on passing a safety inspection. I was told this scenario could be played out because if EBR is no longer manufacturing bikes, as a closed brand it qualifies as an instant "collector plate" vehicle with or without a VIN MSO or COT, and without the 20 year wait. (Minnesota DMV did the same thing with registering AMC's in 1988 when Chrysler bought them out) IF a mule could be had cheap enough, knowing the alternative for it is parting and/or scrapping, I have a hunch the love of brand in this community would make it a source of any technical knowledge one might need to make it run. Parts would be a problem, but every EBR owner out there would have the same problem, so a mule owner would be in good company. With regards to the technical details, you're absolutely right that there is no warranty or support from the dealers. Based on conversations I've seen here on Badweb, that's not really a big problem. Most BMC/ EBR owners do most of their own work anyway. There are some SMART people on here and many know much more than they let on. I suspect those people would pull out all the stops to keep an odd duck of Erik Buell history out of the shredder. In reality it's still just a pondering, but if a mule could be had for little more than a pondering costs, it might be worth a stab. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Those mules should be considered as "parts only" bikes. Maybe a track bike. | ||
| Court |
I'd damn sure want to know some specifics before I put on on a track. | ||
| Buelliedan |
well at least you should be properly dressed for a possible crash at the track and most tracks insist on a safety check before they allow you to go out. I can tell you that I have seen some of the special construction bikes I have seen at Bonneville are a lot scarier that these mules. | ||
| _lightshow |
Fortunately, I've been able to attach my wagon to more than one mule, and I think I'm still here. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I wonder what's going on with the IP and associated stuff from EBR that LAP was trying to auction off? Seems kind of crazy that they announced the auction with huge fanfare, required a huge deposit and signing an NDA to even look at what the IP includes, and then they got NO bids on it. Perhaps they needed a little reality adjustment and then they'll try again. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I don't find it suprising at all. Pretty much went down exactly as I thought it would. The IP is worth very little as any company that could actually use that, has their own engineering team already creating it. 4 year old designs in the motorcycle industry are outdated. (Message edited by buelliedan on July 12, 2017) | ||
| Hughlysses |
I'd agree with you for 1190-related info, but Erik stated that they had other design(s) in the works that were nearly ready for production. That stuff would hopefully be much more current, but as you say other motorcycle companies have their own teams and designs already. | ||
| Buelliedan |
the stuff that EBR was getting ready for production was already 4 years old. The AX was ready to be produced in 2013 but they never had the funds to do it. As much as we all loved EBR they were not even close to being able to do what the other big motorcycle companies were able to do. They just did not have enough money to be competitive. Unfortunately this is the biggest factor in why they failed IMO. | ||
| Oddball |
So the AX should have been here in 2013. I think it could be argued the RX should have been here in 2010 or even 2008 had HD not stuck it's nose into things so much back in the Buell days. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I was thinking more of the sub-$10k bike Erik stated they had in the works. I hope we at least get to see some renderings of that at some point. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
You mean like buying the company? lol One has to wonder how far Buell would have gotten without HD. Would they have been as successful? By forcing every dealer to take the bikes, at least at first, it got them in front of a TON of people. Yes, many at the dealerships didnt like the brand, it still got the name out and probably helped with buying power. If HD wouldnt have bought into the company then maybe it'd have been just like EBR - a boutique company that struggled to make it happen. And then didnt. Either way, it all sucks. | ||
| Snacktoast |
The AX was not as close to production as some would have you believe. And yes, funding was the major factor. | ||
| Steve_a |
So the AX should have been here in 2013. I think it could be argued the RX should have been here in 2010 or even 2008 had HD not stuck it's nose into things so much back in the Buell days. If Buell hadn't been closed in 2009, you would have seen the 1125-based sportbike in June 2010, and something much like the 1190RS that summer as a limited edition in time for homologation for racing. The 1125 was wonderful, we had about seven of them built, with the validation build scheduled for January 2010. The next bike on the platform was going to be a streetfighter; there wasn't a specific plan for a RX version in the short run, but there would have been time to do it by 2013. The Ulysses would have continued to evolve; the 2011 was going to get ABS and other updates. We were stalled on the middleweight platform at the time, which was supposed to be a three-cylinder 666/800cc range including sportbikes, streetfighters, and adventure models, as we were looking for an engine source. Rotax had decided it didn't want to do an engine unless Bombardier could use it in a product as well, and what we were looking for was too small and high-revving for them. | ||
| Davegess |
I want to say to anyone buying the photo bikes be very careful that nothing important is a 3D printed part. We did a lot of things to test look and fitment that really look pretty real but would fail very fast if ridden. Mostly the plastic bits but there could be others. Also some parts that would end up forged would be machined for photos. they will not be nearly as strong as the forging so make sure no critical parts are like that of you could be in for a very exciting ride  | ||
| Hughlysses |
Rotax had decided it didn't want to do an engine unless Bombardier could use it in a product as well, and what we were looking for was too small and high-revving for them. Steve- Can you tell us who other potential sources for the engine were? | ||
| Midknyte |
>...We were stalled on the middleweight platform at the time, which was supposed to be a three-cylinder 666/800cc range including sportbikes... Were we anywhere near a V4? https://www.motoroids.com/news/new-ducati-v4-super bike-the-1299-panigale-successor-spotted-for-the-f irst-time/ | ||
| Court |
Never | ||
| Steve_a |
Rotax had decided it didn't want to do an engine unless Bombardier could use it in a product as well, and what we were looking for was too small and high-revving for them. Steve- Can you tell us who other potential sources for the engine were? There was no alternative source yet; that was still being explored in 2009 when the close-down announcement came. We only heard from Rotax that Bombardier wouldn't approve the engine in the spring of 2009. Erik came up with a new plan for a middleweight at EBR, which would have been a parallel Twin instead of a Triple. It was a very advanced engine, designed by an impressive team with a lot of experience. The engine itself was very light and compact, and would have far exceeded XB12 power levels in 800-850cc form. It's probably not that different from what KTM is coming out with this fall, though likely somewhat lighter and more powerful. It might have been manufactured by Hero, or shared with Hero, partly sourced in India and elsewhere and assembled in East Troy. But the Hero plans went astray, and the engine design was entirely funded by EBR. It was never tooled or even fully prototyped. (Message edited by steve_a on July 18, 2017) (Message edited by steve_a on July 18, 2017) (Message edited by steve_a on July 18, 2017) | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Thanks for that info, Steve. I had sort of forgotten about that KTM bike. Man, I can just imagine EBR's take on that hitting the showrooms about now. Sigh... | ||
| Steve_a |
We were very interested in the street-fighter/scrambler/adventure markets with the middleweight Twin. There would have been an 850 Supersport version, but there would have also been machines very much in the spirit of Lightings and Ulysses's. It's hard to make money if you don't have motorcycles that can sell in reasonable quantities AND don't require major updates every couple of years to keep them competitive. I think we could have done an 850cc adventure bike that would have had 100-rear-wheel horsepower and weighed about 400 pounds before you put luggage on. Sigh . . . | ||
| Court |
>>>I think we could have done an 850cc adventure bike that would have had 100-rear-wheel horsepower and weighed about 400 pounds before you put luggage on. That, I concur, would likely have been . . . . properly priced, placed and promoted . . . a commercial home run that would have allowed EBR to leverage . . . product in the window . . . the MADE IN AMERICA and cleared the commercial "hump". I'd seen the early triple sketches, not the twins but the thing that most captivated me was Erik's enthusiasm for the platform. He has a keen sense of what "puts a pulse in a persona pants" . . . and, given the talent pool working on it . . . I get excited just thinking about it. It also . . speaking as a "sunset years" subset of the market . . . gives me what I want. I need 185HP . . particularly at the $20k - $45K point . . like I need a 911 GT2 RS with 700HP at $300,000. The twin had to be an amazing piece of engineering. | ||
| Sparky_494 |
This Thread has kind of turned into a double-edged sword for me. On one hand I love hearing these little tidbits of information but on the other hand it pains me to think of what could have been...  | ||
| Blake |
400 lb 850cc Uly parallel twin with solid usable power... Dream bike. |
