| Author | Message | ||
     Rick_a |
The "spray and pray" guns with proper technique bridge the gap between pistol and carbine and perform squarely within that envelope. "Spray and pray" is largely a phenomenon of operator error. With the AR pistol above I can rapid fire a 25rd, 20 yd group of 7-8." The barrel is being replaced under warranty due to being capable of only 3-4" at that distance. Once I get the replacement those figures should improve markedly. The stockless shotguns are a bit useless, and unpleasant with any serious load. Pistol calibers are a lot more practical in the carbine based stockless pistols. The extension tube only pistol and firearm I own are exceptional. They both have carbine like handling and accuracy. The shorter one is funner as it's smaller and more rowdy, the bigger firearm is a little boring as it shoots just like a 16" carbine.  There's nothing I enjoy more than proving naysayers wrong. This makes me want an SP5K AOW more than ever  Thinking on it, I'd probably rather get a can for the 9mm SBR. Something like this:  | ||
| Rick_a |
In response, the extension tube-less AR-22 pistol is mostly for fun and suppressed shooting. I've been using it on an SBR lower occasionally, but will likely keep it with its own lower once the 9mm SBR is completed. The 7" 5.56 pistol is handy and loads of fun. It makes a good backpack range gun. With the right loads it could be suitable for defense. The other gun in firearm configuration is my home gun. It's extremely capable...being as smooth shooting and accurate as a 16" rifle...just losing a bit of velocity and comfort. They all have a bit of a niche and I like them all. Since I've owned the AR pistols my 16" rifle has been largely collecting dust. | ||
| Aesquire |
Back in the Wild West days, well over a century ago, Carbines with barrels in the 14 inch range were not uncommon. Perfect for the stage coach or saddle holster. Today the military has gone back to the coach gun size for the same reasons. But that 12" carbine has not well thought out laws restricting it. Hence.... The AR clone I used to have had a 22" heavy barrel, and fixed stock. ( I was going to replace the stock with a target stock, but gave it away first ) I'd just put 1" "shoot n see" dots ( pasters ) on the targets at the 100 yard range, then try and put one magazine into each. Don't like spray, myself.  | ||
| Rick_a |
My 16" rifle will put 30rds in a tidy 100 yd group.  20160916_184327 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr  That was with Serbian green tip...which technically shouldn't shoot that well. That was using a 4x optic, as well. A pleasant surprise all around. The gun has changed a lot through the years, but it wears the same barrel, free float tube, and muzzle device as it's been consistently accurate with most ammo in that combination. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Rick, How do you like the adjustable cheek riser stock? Who makes it? I've just finished a 6.5 Grendel build and have been looking at similar stocks for long range shooting. G | ||
| Rick_a |
It's made in Israel by FAB Defense. It's called the GL-Shock. I like it. It's not the most comfortable cheek rest, but it can be set up to clear the charging handle or collapsed for iron sight shooting. It has spring tension recoil absorbtion system, though it's hardly necessary. | ||
| Aesquire |
I tried the Knox recoil reduction stock on a Remington 870 12 ga. Reduced kick down to 20 ga. levels no problem. But the cheek rest is stock hard plastic M4 collapsible and smacks the face pretty hard if you go for a solid cheek weld. Perfect setup for a red dot or holographic sight with a light cheek contact. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Thanks Rick, I've already ordered a MAKO it's standard issue for the IDF and should work nicely. G | ||
| Blake |
Did you all know that our judiciary has ruled it unlawful to even drive onto a post office parking lot with a gun in your vehicle? "..., the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." "No guns allowed on post office property even in your personal vehicle." Cause "safety"? Cause criminals obey the rules? https://www.full30.com/video/5d1d514c16864d58b172c 229768a2562 It is long past time to restore the rule of law in America. If a judge refuses to acknowledge basic English, preferring instead to grotesquely contort the law in favor of government authority over the people rather than upholding and protecting the rights of the people against infringement by government, said judge must be thrown off the court. Impeach. | ||
| Rick_a |
It's sadly become a fact of life since the draconian gun laws of the 1930's that Constitutionality no longer applies to our rights. It's become a matter of public opinion and judiciary interpretation. | ||
| Aesquire |
Nice accuracy. ... considering my old Bushmaster Varminter weighed half a ton more and barely fits in an easy rider rifle rack. The Heavy barrel, fluted or not, in the extra long size probably weighs as much as one of those pistols, alone. Not a mountain hunting rifle. Meant for sitting still and shooting at prairie poodles out near the horizon. Preferably with a bench & bags, or with Bipod. I used a modular Versa Pod model. Quick on & off. Pluses were the light weight and quick change from prone to seated to standing lengths. Rubber tubing allowed quick aiming, perfect for cleaning a plate rack at range. Downside of the Versa Pod is it's not as solid as a Harris bipod. At longer ranges you want oak, not willow. My next AR will have a floating fore end ( a must for precision ) with mounting holes for whatever extra I want. A real Harris is first. What looks like the good modular hole setup? Keymod? | ||
| Rick_a |
Thanks. That's no lightweight. It's a heavy match barrel with a stainless free float tube under the handguards. It's 10-1/2 lbs unloaded. The bat gun is back with a new barrel and AFG...looking a little bat-gun-ier.  20170603_082756 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr | ||
| Rick_a |
Mlock is supposed to be the in thing these days, according to science... http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-th e-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted -at-nswc-crane/ ...and this guy... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkD3_l6bZGk | ||
| Joel9 |
Mix up this thread a bit. A couple from my collection. 1969 Izhmash AKM & 1981 Polish circle 11 factory underfolder.  | ||
| Aesquire |
thanks, that seems pretty definitive. | ||
| Rick_a |
Speaking of , definitive, Definitive Arms recently created a "Pmagunov" 308 that shoots quite well.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h224abV6PM If these get imported again I may have to sell the PSL:  It's not as attractive, but for putting it in a backback or pack it's a bit more practical. The big, stretched out AK's and higher quality guns like Bulgarian Arsenals dispel the myth that AK's don't shoot. | ||
| Aesquire |
Shoot, yes. As issued accuracy? The AK stock is designed to shoot low. Troops in armored vehicles and a 100 meter designed impact zone. Pinpoint accuracy wasn't on the features list. Doesn't mean that they can't be accurate, just that Soviet issue isn't sure to be a target rifle. It does fine at "minute of man" shooting. More than enough power and legendary durability in the hands of untrained militias. Ever seen the slow motion video of AK vs. AR? AK wiggles and bends, AR is stiffer and all one piece? But even issue ARs are just decent. Free float barrels and civilian target tuning have really made the AR the choice of target and hunting shooters. It wasn't that long ago that the minute of angle accuracy promised and delivered by bargain Weatherby's, Savage, Ruger, & some ARs was a rare thing. You'd spend well over a thousand dollars on custom rifles that couldn't equal the "packaged with a scope" sale item at Gander Mt. The optics are better too. That said, some Iron Curtain states just make good gear. The Czech stuff, for example. Even their helicopters are improved from Soviet original. | ||
| Rick_a |
The AK vs AR accuracy myth is largely that. With similar guns (rack grade AK vs M4, for example) and similar sights/optics they're not so far apart. One to two MOA advantage AR. In practical terms it's nearly meaningless. The AK vs AR reliability is just that as well. The AR's get less crap in them to begin with, the AK's deal with crap a little better. Most mud/sand tests have them relatively even. One of these is effective to 800 yards. It's not the AR.  | ||
| Aesquire |
The AR is also a reduced power round designed weapon. In military form a true assault rifle. The 5.56 just doesn't carry supersonic at 800. Make that an AR-10 comparison and it's more even. Roughly same ballistics. There's a reason they use .300 Winchester Magnum for Navy snipers. ( and other weapons ) But your point that rack grade AR vs. AK is close is valid. Arguably the 7.63 x 39 is a "better" round. I'll take the 5.56 out past 200 yards but the 7.62 if I need to shoot a car or take out a door. ( not anticipating either ) My argument is, compared to the AK, or even the Garand, it's easier to make the AR a very accurate weapon. By it's nature. And compared to many others the rail upper AR variants are much easier to mount an optic on. The SKS is ok with a scout scope IF you get the right mount that replaces the rear sight. The one I had, you needed to remove & re-zero the scope to clean the gas tube. ( not needed daily.... but occasionally ) After I bought mine, better ones came out. The great FN FAL isn't scope friendly either. Most AK clones have side mounts that seem better than the old Garand ones. It's not a cut & dried matter. | ||
| Rick_a |
Well, sure. That's all given. 7.62x39 is popular here, but in military use the standard has been 5.45x39 for some time in the AK-74. Maximum effective ranges are identical in AK vs AR in that case. The Russian round has given up a large close range wound cavity for enhanced penetration. The AR is certainly more versatile and far more easily customizable. | ||
| Rick_a |
Speaking of accuracy, I got to try out the new 22 with a new barrel. It's doing a relatively consistent 1-1/2" at 25 yards. I would consider that acceptable, I suppose.  20170604_190231 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr | ||
| Gregtonn |
Took my AR out yesterday to test fire it. Ruger 556 lower and Radical Firearms 6.5 Grendel upper. Wolf steel case ammo @ $5.25 for a box of 20. After 30 break in shots it was shooting about 1.5 MOA with the cheap ammo. I hope to get out and shoot some Federal Match and Hornady SST in the next couple weeks. "One to two MOA advantage AR. In practical terms it's nearly meaningless." Possibly true at short range. At long range it is extremely meaningful. G | ||
| Rick_a |
At the extreme of an intermediate caliber assault rifle...meaningless. At the extreme of a fancy varmint or target rifle, very meaningful. | ||
| Gregtonn |
"At the extreme of an intermediate caliber assault rifle...meaningless." NATO spec effective range of 5.56 NATO rifle= 550 meters (601.5 yards) 1 MOA@100yds=1.05" NATO established accuracy is approximately 1.5 MOA or a likely hit on 9" target at effective range. "One to two MOA advantage AR. In practical terms it's nearly meaningless." Split the difference and go with a 1.5 decrease in MOA accuracy for a total of 3 MOA at 600 yards which results in likely hit on an 18" target. I call that extremely meaningful, no fancy rifle needed. G | ||
| Rick_a |
The people realistically making hits at such ranges are using a DMR rifle...not an M4. Standard NATO 5.56 ball ammo is not 1.5 MOA ammunition. 2-4 MOA is more typical for actual downrange performance. Your numbers are not realistic. | ||
| Aesquire |
IMHO the biggest advantage of the AR platform is how easy it is to free float the barrel and how much that improves accuracy. Although ease of mounting optics may be more important. The trend both in U.S. & Soviet small arms toward stubby versions of the M4 & AK-74 puts a hurting on long range shooting by slowing down the bullets. Both ballistics and terminal effects suffer. But the military rifle in America before the Lebel and smokeless powder was a buffalo gun with a rainbow trajectory. Worked in it's day. Most of the big bore AR cartridges just about duplicate the .45-70, showing that more than century old design was a good balance. | ||
| Rick_a |
The Russians have been supplanting infantry squads for ages with longer range rifles.  The U.S. has adopted the same tactic, though I don't believe they're as widely implemented.  The U.S. has traditionally preferred to engage targets just outside of rifle range with light and medium machine guns. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Rick, If you are only shooting 3-4 MOA using mil-spec 5.56 you have issues not related to ammo. G | ||
| Rick_a |
That is incorrect. This is out of a heavy test barrel on a specialized fixture, not an M16 or M4.  The M9 is supposed to maintain within 3" ten shot accuracy at 50M. That's also a bit fanciful. | ||
| Aesquire |
Lowest bidder. There's a reason I like Black Hills. Their OTM 62 gr. was just about 1" groups at 100 yards. ( in a long heavy barrel varmint rifle ) Winchester white box 55 gr. was about the same. Foreign bargain brands varied box to box, but 4" groups were not a surprise. I didn't try heavier than 66 gr. OTM and that was 2-3" groups so I figured 55-62 was the sweet spot. Most surplus military ammo, old to new, that I've tried in a variety of guns is just like the civilian stuff. The gun likes what it likes. Stuff a buddy's AK thought was target ammo was junk in my SKS, and vice versa. In the military, you get what they give you. |
