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Cupfullofjoe
| | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 12:33 am: | 
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Hey all, I just bought a 2002 Buell X1 with 12k miles last week and am in love with it. Rode it through the week, put a little over 400 miles on it, then yesterday it wouldn't start. It cranks but won't kick over.
Heres some quick history on the bike for the time that I've owned it. The second day of ownership the ignition switch stopped working on me (turn the key to on but no fuel pump prime or lights). I pulled the switch, opened it up and cleaned all the inside contacts, springs, etc. Cleared out all the excessive old grease, applied new dielectric grease and closed it back up. Switch worked perfectly after that.
Two days ago I changed by engine and transmission oil, had a small leak from the transmission drain, corrected that leak, and then took it on a 60 mile ride without any problems. The next day when getting ready to ride and double checking to be sure I wasn't leaking I noticed the muffler band bracket was cracked at all of the welding points (probably had always been this way just hadn't fully noticed), so it was basically hanging only attached at the collector. I wrapped some wire around the muffler to the bracket to give it a little bit of support then went to fire up the bike. Cranked and cranked but no kick over.
Today I started by removing the wire giving extra support to the muffler (this really couldn't have caused this, could it? but I took it off anyway). I changed spark plugs and added fresh fuel to the tank (was a little under half full, I added 2 gallons that I picked up from the pump today). Tried starting again and still only cranks.
I tested for spark and I get a very nice bright white/blue spark from both plugs. I can smell gas on the plugs so it would seem gas is getting put into the cylinders. I threw the battery on the charger and brought it up to full charge (its been cranking wonderfully and hasn't died through out all the cranking). Still no start. I pulled the airfilter off to look inside the throttle body. Looks clean, I cleaned the MAF with MAF cleaner. I also did a very basic fuel pressure check by letting the pump prime and then pressing the release valve, and fuel shot out pretty quick. Also, I do believe the previous owner mentioned that the fuel pump was replaced in the past.
With spark, fuel and air, I started fearing the compression was bad and the motor shot. I bought a compression meter and got to following the test procedure outlined in the service manual. Dry both cylinders put out exactly the same, 75 on their first crank and after 5 cranks sat at 175. Added a half ounce of oil and did the wet test, again both cylinders exactly the same; 90 on first crank 195 final. Compression seems fantastic to me. I'll also add that during compression testing I could smell the gas from the cylinders.
It would appear all the elements for a motor to start are there, but still I can't get the thing to kick over. I'm really confused at this point on where to go next. I'm thinking tomorrow I'll try swapping the battery from my other motorcycle into this one just to see (I'm doubting this will do it) or I'm thinking maybe I should pull the injectors. Again I'm doubting this as well since I can smell the fuel in the cylinders.
If anyone has any advice I would very much appreciate it so I can get back to riding this thing! |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 09:19 am: |
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Usually, fuel, spark, and compression means a running engine. However, all of those elements need to be in the correct proportions, at the correct time.
Years ago, had the same situation with my Jeep. Ran fine, parked it in the garage, and the next day it would crank over but not start. Problem turned out to be the crank position sensor.
So, I would pull the cover over the cam position sensor and check it for signs of overheating. Also, check the harness connector from the cam position sensor near the front pulley for signs of distress. Sounds like you have a strong spark; it may not be happening when it should.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 12:23 pm: |
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I second the CPS may be bad. Drill the rivets out and put your nose in there. If it smells burnt, then probably the cause.
Another thought. Whenever I have trouble AFTER troubleshooting, I always go back to the area I was messing in, in your case, the ignition switch.
Another thought. Swap the two black relays in the fuse/relay block and see if that gets it going. I'd also pull every fuse, one at a time, and clean each contact with spray contact cleaner. Probably do the relays too.
Best wishes... |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 12:41 pm: |
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If the CPS is dead, you won't be getting spark. If it is half bad, you would probably at least be getting backfires and sputters.
Is there fuel to the cylinder? |
Cupfullofjoe
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 09:27 pm: |
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Hey all, I didn't pull the CPS cover (haven't really wanted to deal with drilling rivets out and all that), however I did test my voltage going in (steady 5.0 volts) and coming out of the sensor (about 2.4 volts). According to the manual they should be okay. Do you guys still think this could be it? Should I just go ahead and pull the cover?
I checked my two relays, one of them was clearly replaced by the previous owner, it looked very clean. The other was corroded so I grabbed a new one and replaced it. It still won't run but it kinda sputters and trys now a bit more to run.
I also have a good amount of white smoke or vapor coming from the exhaust now after cranking. I'm not sure if this is due to the wet compression test and putting a 1/2 oz of oil in each cylinder or what... Below is a link to an image of the exhaust smoke.
http://i.imgur.com/Zlnn2IZ.jpg
Edit: Just tested the ignition switch again as well. Zero resistance when the key is turned to on. Ignition switch shouldn't be a problem.
(Message edited by cupfullofjoe on February 28, 2017) |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 11:27 pm: |
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You may have an exhaust seal leak because of that broken exhaust bracket.
Or, you may have an intake seal leak.
Another leak that I haven ridden and observed, injector o-ring(s) leaking.
I've even had the backing plate gasket leak and that causes erratic idling.
Have you swapped the battery yet? Have you load tested either? A lot of us here are believers in HD batteries. Got 10 years out of my last one on the 2000 X1 Lightning I own.
You'll need to ensure that your Throttle Position Sensor knows the closed and wide open range. This can be checked with ECMspy. If you don't have the TPS for idle set correctly, the bike will not run.
Hoping that you are back riding soon
(Message edited by two_seasons on March 01, 2017) |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 07:59 am: |
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The most reliable CPS test you can do without a scope is probably just looking for spark. It won't show you intermittent problems, but it will show a completely dead sensor.
After all the cranking and flailing, if you are now at the "sputter" phase, I'd try throwing in a fresh set of plugs now. You might have fouled the old ones fighting other problems. |
Cupfullofjoe
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 10:23 pm: |
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I've had exhaust and intake leaks before on other bikes and cars, but none of them have ever stopped it from starting, and I didn't notice any leaks while this one was running.
I followed the testing procedure in the manual for the injectors (switching the bike on and off 6 times or 2 seconds at a time) and I saw no raw fuel in the intake. I'm assuming this is done just to pressurize the system and push fuel through any leaks, so it seems like there are no leaks. Is there a better way than what the manual describes for testing the injectors?
I charged the battery up before trying to start again today. The sitting voltage is 13.6 so its very strong. Stronger than my other bikes battery, I'm fairly certain the battery isn't the cause. I haven't tried switching batteries simply because I can't get the strap off the current battery. Maybe later I'll mess with it but I don't think its the problem.
I don't have a way to test or reset the TPS unfortunately since I don't have the proper cables and ECM spy, this might be the moment that I take it into a Harley dealer to get them to test.
I do believe the CPS is good. Voltages returned within spec and I do get strong spark. The only though I could have is that the sensor is just sending the signal at the wrong moment. I don't have a rear stand to test timing unfortunately.
Plugs are brand new, never been ran, only attempted starts on them. I cleaned them up with contact cleaner and tried again, but still no start. I pulled them again after and I can definitely smell gas on them.
If the bank angle sensor were an issue or the side stand switch, they would cause a no crank or no spark condition, right? Since I'm able to crank and have spark I don't think either of these are the issue. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 09:16 am: |
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Various things . . .
The only other way I know to check the injectors is to take them out and have them checked on a bench at a place that can do that sort of work.
One way to check the timing: go to the building supply place of choice and get a steel rod or piece of rebar. Mine is about 21-22 in long by 1/2 dia. Put it through the rear axle and put the ends on suitable stands so the rear tire is off the floor. Remove the plugs, and put the trans in 5th gear. Finger over the front spark plug hole and 'bump' the engine over with the rear wheel until the front cyl is on the compression stroke. Go to the right side of the bike, and remove the plug at the base of the cyl V. Turn ign and stop/run on, and bump the engine over. If the timing is correct, the fuel pump will 'fire' when the timing mark is in the center of the hole.
When I had to visually inspect the CPS, I drilled off just the rivet heads. Remove the decorative cover, then take out the screws to remove the inner cover. Once I had the inner cover on the bench, I carefully removed the rivet bodies. For reassembly, I went to the hardware store and got 2 10-32 stainless hex head bolts. I tapped the inner cover with a 10-32 tap, carefully. There is only enough material for about 1-1 1/2 threads, but the bolts only have to hold on the decorative cover.
Trim the bolts to length.
One thing to try: With a fully charged battery, connect a battery charger. With the charger turned on, try starting the engine. If it does start, you are loosing amps somewhere in the system. Doesn't tell you where, or why it worked yesterday but not today, but it would be a start.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 09:41 am: |
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I've never done injector testing for dripping or spray pattern.
But I know that the O-rings that seal the injectors to the throttle body (air leak) do go bad and can cause really rough idle and terrible riding conditions, cold and hot.
You've said that the bike, once warmed up, runs like a champ, yes?
Are you absolutely sure there is nothing still amiss with the ignition switch and associated wiring?
And you've checked all of the grounds?
I'm at work, so limited time here. Did you test your Engine Temp Sensor? Sorry but I don't have time to re-read entire posts. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 02:48 pm: |
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Cupfulla- PM sent. |
Cupfullofjoe
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 06:33 pm: |
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Bike is running again!
Rented a fuel pressure gauge and that told me that the pump was putting out 50psi. Went out and got a rear stand to test the timing, that turned out to be okay. Cleaned the plugs and put them back in. Went ahead and tried another start and the bike kicked over for a couple seconds than stumbled and died. Tried it again and gave it some throttle and it shot to life and held idle. My guess is there must have been some sort of crap in the injectors partially blocking fuel flow and giving it throttle gave it the pressure to push it out. I went for a second ride on it the other day and it stumbled a bit on the first harder pull but after that it was good. I should probably grab a new fuel filter since it seems like there's maybe particulates getting into the injectors.
At least now I know that everything checks out on the bike. It seems to be running real well again. There is a bit of lifter tick when the bike is warmed up, but from my searching it seems that's pretty normal for these engines. I'll probably try swapping a bit of the oil for ATF just before my next oil change to try and clean the lifters out. Thanks for all the help everyone! |
Jim2
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 06:55 pm: |
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Feed your tank some Seafoam every fourth or fifth fill-up. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 07:18 pm: |
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Excellent! Good to hear. Given your first post, might do to never return to the last place you got fuel.
Dave |
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2002 Buell X1 Cranks but Won't Start