| Author | Message | ||
     Johndd |
I work in aerospace repair and don't know too much about motorcycle networks. However, isn't there some type of basic certification for dealer mechanics? I would think you would hold a repair shop to the same standard (pre-qualified). I would also start by looking at previous dealers in the older, defunct Buell network (Message edited by Johndd on February 22, 2017) (Message edited by Johndd on February 22, 2017) | ||
| Mog |
With Erik's new 3D printable 'Certified EBR Robot Technician' you can bet your ECM the job will get done correctly the first time, anywhere there is an electric outlet and UPS delivery. Pictured is Ebrybotty fixing the fingers on his new assistant Ebronica.   Credits InMoov & Alamy | ||
| Stevel |
The problem is not the just the shop and shop talent. It is the tool set. If the shop does not have unique diagnostic tools, the mechanic has to resort to a guess, swap and see methodology. The shop must make money or go out of business. So whatever time is applied to the customer's bike, must be reflected in the bill. It also results in replacing parts that do not need replacing. Further, no shop will invest in tools whose cost cannot be recovered with adequate volume. There just isn't enough of these bikes out there to justify the investment. As most of you will recall, HD forced all dealers that sold 1125s to buy a factory assembled set of specialty tools, most of which were made by Kent Moore under license. The only way to buy these tools was through HD, but even these tools were not adequate to efficiently troubleshoot a fault. Consider the fact that all things on the bike are controlled by the ECU, so if something is not working well, the mechanic must first understand how and with what inputs the ECU makes the decisions it does. Then the mechanic has to check those ECU inputs and outputs to see if they are valid. In the real world a fault could be either a component or a connection fault somewhere in the bike's wiring harness. Using the console diagnostic mode is uncertain, because you are now using the same system to troubleshoot that is at fault. The best it can do is put you in the ballpark.....maybe. Then ask yourself how a mechanic can test these signals. There is simply no test point access or space. Lastly, ask yourself how many shops that you know meet this criteria? | ||
| Mog |
Steve, well said. I am quite sure that Erik is very well informed of what is possible. Such ideas as regional floating tool sets, scheduling of 'operations' against a calendar/PERT chart and all of that integrated into a central AR (augmented reality) system based at HQ. As you stated, the small size of EBR would be problem but that problem might be turned positive simply because of the low number of bikes still out there. The AR group would be addressing repair shop problems to walk technicians through the complications by an individual or small group trying to perform a specific repair or a general set of diagnostics. I am also quite sure that Erik is aware of the use of various levels of robotics and that at some point they will be ubiquitous, even in shops. Problem is now, how to get from where he is to the next step in the evolution of an EBR-like company and its definition. 70 years of age is the new 30s. From my limited vantage point, Erik is an even more formidable force in the motorcycle world than any amount of years ago. Your comment is accurate. I simply see EBR has an answer and implore that investors take a look at a man on a mission, indefatigable. VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6SGlOLVpg8 ARTICLE https://www.designnews.com/content/5-augmented-rea lity-suppliers-watch-2017/17538688352509?cid=nl.x. dn14.edt.aud.dn.20170223.tst004c | ||
| Airbozo |
My B-I-L used to work for the company that made the diagnostic equipment for several manufacturers including Tesla, Zero and Brammo. They could not sell directly to any shops due to licensing requirements and the manufacturers make a tidy profit selling those units to their shops. Can anyone say "Open Source ECU"? Might resolve a buttload of diagnostic issues since many (if not all) manufacturers have moved to the CANBUS. Hell Steve, what you described is how I have troubleshot computer systems for well over 30 years. You have to make some assumptions about what works and take the easy steps first. Maybe I should make another career change... ECU/Electrical troubleshooting master for hire... I can fix anything with a meter and a drawing. Most times I only need the meter. That's what makes the CANBUS so easy to work on. You can isolate a lot of stuff to narrow your search. They use the CANBUS in a lot of medical devices as well, especially the ones with any sort of robot. There is some up front work when designing things like ECU's to make sure you build in a way to troubleshoot the entire system. | ||
| Hughlysses |
EBR posted today that 2017 models are available at dealerships, still with warranty and parts support. That would seem to indicate EBR will be in business at least one year after the last 2016 or 2017 model bike is sold, or something more than 1 year from now. | ||
| Stevel |
The issues that I described in my last post above are not unique to just EBR. These issues are common though out the automotive industry. The use of the CAN bus although open, does not resolve the problem because the data within the data packets being transported are proprietary and not made public. Even if you were to construct a breakout box as I have done, the user has no reference as to what the signals should look like because they are not published anywhere. This takes a lot of personal electronics experience not usually held by most mechanics. Not only does the troubleshooter today have to have electronics training, but must also have a very good understanding of ECUs and how they work. Further complicating the issue is that the internal software logic within the ECU is also proprietary. | ||
| Reepicheep |
And taking it a step further, even if you could get at the raw data, you are still half blind. A lot of the data is analog data that is periodically sampled, so if you are getting spikes or noise on the line, or sloppy square waves from a hall effect sensor, the digital data can look kind of OK, but one look at the analog wave forms shows a rolling train wreck. | ||
| Johndd |
I know the local Harley dealer network also uses a dyno as part of their ECM tune process. | ||
| Airbozo |
Thanks for the info Steve, I knew that the data stream is proprietary, and it is similar in the medical device industry in some cases. KUKA who manufactures robots for manufacturing and medical devices often releases open standard communications protocols, but it is up to the individual manufacturers whether they use it or their own code. Most folks use the open code as a base and in the case of life threatening issues, they encrypt that data to keep hackers from disrupting the functionality or safety limits of the device. The EPA is one of the roadblocks to the open source model in automotive products. They don't want it to be easy to modify or otherwise hack into, both for safety and emissions control modification. I've run into this when helping companies build products that tap into the CANBUS for monitoring or functional control. The process for getting a licensed product is pretty tough. I have access to multiple protocol analyzers and would love to tap into the bus to watch the data flow (yes I am a nerd). Reminds me when I started working on electronics, amps and TV's. SAM's guides would show what the wave forms should look like at multiple test points to help troubleshoot the devices. That's how I learned to fix the complicated issues and why I thrived when I got my first job fixing HDD's. I knew how to hook up the test equipment and how to read the signals and what to replace when something wasn't right. Or how to calibrate the devices when they were out of range. Seems like it would behoove all manufacturers to set some open standards but then that would make it too easy for a non dealer shop to fix any vehicle. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Talk about a day late and a dollar short. Here's a "news" article on EBR: http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/32003/201702 24/erik-buell-racing-black-lighting-motorcycle-pow erful-lower-seat-bike.htm | ||
| Crusty |
Such a beautiful machine... and it will never be built. That really sucks. | ||
| Two_seasons |
I like this discussion about CANbus. And talk about a blast from the past..."SAM's guides"...WOW, haven't seen one of those for eon's...thanks for the memories!  | ||
| Johndd |
I wonder what would happen if they started getting requests/inquiries for the Black Lightning through the company web site? It's definitely my favorite of the new models. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I tried e-mailing them a few days after the latest announcement and asking, but got no response. I imagine the main factor with the BL was getting enough orders to bring the price of the suspension components down to a reasonable level. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
There were about 10,000 1125s sold There were over +60,000 XBs sold and thousands of tubers sold. Soon H-D will stop selling spare parts for these motorcycles, right ? Why can't EBR start selling parts for all these motorcycle and have this operation as its core bussiness, while at the same time build and sell RXs and SXs ? I think the future for EBR is supporting its roots, BUELL motorcycles....Start from there and see how it goes ...... | ||
| Johndd |
@Vagelis46, I agree.... Also, making parts for older bikes might be a good way to build up parts for potential new again classics ("Classic Buell" line maybe?). | ||
| Stevel |
Vagelis46 and Johndd, I am afraid you're beating a dead horse. I have been stating this for several years now, but for what ever reason, has fallen on deaf ears. EBR has really missed the mark, but there is no indication their opinion has changed. Even if Erik has changed his mind, the company belongs to LAP. LAP is in the scrap business. I suspect they are unwilling to invest any money in EBR beyond that to maximize sales of the residuals. Erik is not in control. | ||
| Court |
Why would LAP put a single nickel into EBR or Buell? Seriously . . . I'm curious. Be mindful that Erik Buell owns 0% of anything, either EBR or Buell. I'm eager to be corrected, if wrong. But I have no idea what a company, a very successful company, that has made a name for itself liquidating businesses would jump into a business they know nothing about, completely dependent upon the physical presence of a single individual headed toward 70 years old and take on the likes of Ducati, Triumph, BMW and Moto Guzzi. Would you plop your $50,000,000 into that deal? | ||
| Crusty |
Let me win the Lottery and you'll see a dummy who would. Then again, I never was much good at handling money wisely. (Message edited by Crusty on February 27, 2017) | ||
| Buellerxt |
Steve and Court, +1. The game is over. Erik had a great, though rocky, run but it is all behind us. LAP tried to sell it as a going concern but will now liquidate. I wish Erik nothing but the best. | ||
| Willmrx |
How about Keanu Reeves, who owns a motorcycle company,(An avid motorcyclist, he co-founded Arch Motorcycle Company. The business builds and sells custom motorcycles.)and Jay leno team up?? | ||
| Court |
Be mindful . . . there is a significant difference between a "hobby" and a "business". Jay Leno "plays". He's a true enthusiast, like Michael Jordan and others who've been bitten with "our bug". But Leno is also a businessman. Erik has his number, could pick up the phone and call and, trust me, plenty of folks have proposed it to him. Leno is in motorcycles . . . as are all of us . .for FUN. He knows the difference between business (being a comedian / entertainer ) and a hobby (motorcycles and cars ) and is smart enough to keep the two areas of his life separate. I've been in both the motorcycle business and the motorcycle hobby and the only times I've been truly sorry was when I let the streams cross. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
@ Stevel I know that we share the same view, that the main bussiness for EBR should be supporting parts for the almost 100,000 Buell motorcycles sold.... If you think about it , Buell has sold more motorcycles than MotoGuzzi ! And we all know how iconic and a HUGE brand MotoGuzzi is ,and has dieHard followers ! It is the same for EBR-BUELL ..... I am just waiting for the 7 years period that H-D was supposed to provide parts for BUELL motorcycles after BUELL was shut down, to expire... I guess that after that (is it year 2017??)EBR will step up and take the role of building and selling parts for BUELL motorcycles..... I mean.... what will the thousands of us that own BUELL motorcycles do if they don't ??? | ||
| Hughlysses |
I sure hope the full story of this latest go-round eventually comes out. It seems like LAP was willing to give EBR a try; I just wonder what the criteria were? Did they put whatever money they made from selling excess parts and equipment into the business, and when that money ran out, they pulled the plug? Maybe they were thinking there was a possibility that the fickle market would take notice of what a great deal the EBRs were, sales would take off, EBR would become profitable, and hopefully attract the attention of major investors, but that certainly must have been a long shot. The 5 year plan they touted for slowly growing the company must have been contingent on goals that weren't met. I feel like if there's any chance for anything of EBR to survive long term, it's that promised sub-$10k 2018 model bike. During the closure, Erik said this bike was a few months away from being ready for production. Then LAP implied it would be shown at the IMS this year. Maybe an existing manufacturer would have an interest in acquiring the design and building this bike? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
@ Hughlysses If EBR has any chance to survive long term it is to start selling parts for the thousands of BUELL motorcycles that are now rolling at the streets, after H-D stops selling them. A sub $10k bike could come later, and the AX could come later and it will certainly help.... But by no means will just introducing these models, will make EBR a sustainable bussiness....... There is also the "ethical" part of the equation..... For the thousands of us that own BUELL motorcycles and need to keep them running. EBR must support us now for our BUELLs .....Buying an EBR will then come as a natural evolution when there is the time to change our bikes.... We are the next EBR owners..... We , the current BUELL owners... | ||
| Court |
>>>I am just waiting for the 7 years period that H-D was supposed to provide parts for BUELL motorcycles after BUELL was shut down, to expire... You won't have to wait long . . . a mere 7 months. In addition . . . there was never any "legal obligation" (some folks dreamed up some sort of "the law requires" stuff) to provide spares and support. Harley-Davidson did jt mostly cause they had the parts sitting around. Explain this "ethical" obligation to us former Saab owners or the folks who owned "real" VOX amplifiers. :-) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Former? I get in my 2006 9-3 Aero (the one with the big wheels, V6 with forged pistons, and the two stage turbo) every morning. Lovely car, except for the bad Japanese transmission valve body. But I fixed that (ow). Except this: Dear : This notice is sent to you in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act. General Motors has decided that a defect which relates to motor vehicle safety exists in certain model year Saab vehicles. As a result, GM is conducting a safety recall. We apologize for this inconvenience. However, we are concerned about your safety and continued satisfaction with our products. I M P O R T A N T Your vehicle is involved in GM safety recall 28810/Saab safety recall 15041. Why is your vehicle being recalled? In some vehicles, the driver airbag inflator may experience an alteration over time, which could lead to overaggressive combustion in the event of an air bag deployment. This condition could create excessive internal pressure when the air bag is deployed, which could result in the body of the inflator rupturing upon deployment. In the event of an inflator rupture, metal fragments could pass through the air bag cushion material, which may result in injury or death to vehicle occupants. What will we do? Parts to repair your vehicle are not currently available, but when parts are available, your Saab Official Service Center (OSC) will replace the driver airbag inflator on vehicles subject to this recall. This service will be performed for you at no charge. We are working as quickly as possible to correct this condition. When parts are available, we will send you another letter asking you to take your vehicle to your Saab Official Service Center to have your vehicle serviced. You can also check the status of this recall at my.gm.com/recalls Do you have questions? If you have questions or concerns that your Saab Official Service Center is unable to resolve, please contact the Saab Customer Assistance Center at 800-955-9007. If after contacting your Saab Official Service Center and the Customer Assistance Center, you are still not satisfied we have done our best to remedy this condition without charge and within a reasonable time, you may wish to write the Administrator, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE., Washington, DC 20590, or call the toll-free Vehicle Safety Hotline at 1.888.327.4236 (TTY 1.800.424.9153), or go to http://www.safercar.gov. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Campaign ID Number for this recall is 16V063 Federal regulation requires that any vehicle lessor receiving this recall notice must forward a copy of this notice to the lessee within ten days. } | ||
| Stevel |
I think Court is correct on this one. I believed that there was a 7 year parts obligation too. Court challenged me on this several years ago and I spent a looong time trying to find something on that, but I failed in the end and found nothing. Parts will continue to be available until they are not. Then we are on our own. In my previous post here on this thread, I spoke about building in a physical fuel pressure gauge for troubleshooting purposes. Well, it's a bit tricky to do, but I have sourced a metric fitting extension for those that wish to do this. The fuel pressure sensor is common on all Buell and EBR models. The fitting is M14 x 1.5 ORR fitting conforming to ISO 9974. A company called AeroFlow Performance makes the ONLY one I found. They are an Australian company, but there is a USA branch as well. The part number is AF810-M14-02. It comes in anodized Blue, Black or Silver. It also has an 1/8"NPT port between the male and female ends. This port will allow you to plumb in a standard 100PSI gauge. Remove sensor, install extension and then screw sensor in the extension end. Simple. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So what is stopping EBR to start making and selling parts for BUELL motorcycles ? Is it a "H-D legal" thing ? Or is it that Erik has no interest in doing so ? |
