| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>But it takes a LOT of money. Think, as a minimum, $50,000,000.00. That's not a guess . . . that's from a budget. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Think, as a minimum, $50,000,000.00. So, clearly LAP didn't really believe they'd support EBR for 5 years; they were hoping another investor would come along in the last year, which didn't happen. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Wheelnerds opens this week's show with a short discussion on EBR: http://wheelnerds.com/e/clearly-clever-title-here/ | ||
| Adrenaline_junkie |
You have to sell a pretty good pile of motorcycles to pay back that kind of scratch. More than a dozen I'd guess. | ||
| Mog |
Opening a market segment is NOT funding 20 million dollars of capital equipment. A group that starts a VC (Venture Capital) group does not wake up one morning with 100 million $ on the front door step. It starts with a group of young/old market mavens who want to lend OPM (Other People's Money) and make a buck or two doing so. If there has been a market (in this case) 10s of thousands of bikes and a decent profit potential, then a group can form and set a deal down. The Crowd Funding merely gets the money up front for some marketers to do their due diligence to assess a market potential. The positive comments about the past bikes and accomplishments create the market armature about which the campaign to raise bigger bucks is based. I am at a loss to explain it more clearly. The glowing usage reports of Buells and EBRs is a type of capital in itself and can, by the right people, be a powerful determinant in establishing a financial base for a product. LAP was/is trying to do so (in a way) but they are not VCs (no hurt intended). They are out of their element in that realm but I believe they can be pivotal in assisting a venture. Smart marketers who would do this EBR thing would be tuning into the dialog going on in this forum and making notes. It will take some time and money, money that would be recompensed to those who got in at the crowd level. It takes someone who does this to do it. Those folks are out there and LAP knows it. A Crowd Fund simply adds more attention. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I wonder if the closure of Victory wasn't more directly related to EBR's current situation than LAP's press release indicated. Perhaps there was some kind of informal discussion between Polaris and LAP early last year like Polaris saying "We're not ready to invest in EBR yet, but come back to us in a year and we'll talk." Polaris looked at their balance sheets late last year, and decided to concentrate ALL their motorcycle efforts on Indian, which would be a clear sign that they have no interest in investing in another motorcycle brand. LAP says "So much for that; time to get out of the motorcycle business."  | ||
| Toxic |
Hughlysses, of all the theories I've read, that seems to make the most sense so far based upon the odd timing of all this. | ||
| Rsh |
Polaris buying EBR was a dream from 2 years ago. During the auction process pre LAP, very little interest was shown. How was it that a lighting manufacturer Bruce Belfer was able to assume command of a practically turn key motorcycle company until he was unable to secure financing, because there was no interest. I don't believe any large manufacturer with financial means is interested in EBR unless it's from India or China. Look how many people on this board want a Ulysses replacement or an S2 or S3. The top selling Ducati is the Scrambler followed by the Multistrada then Monster, Superbikes and Diavel come next. Unfortunately the market just isn't there for EBR whatever the reasoning, but there are people chomping on the bit for the new GSXR 1000 that's coming out, ironic isn't it. Now the current trend is developing small bore standards and small bore adventure/utility bikes, it's to attract the next generation and get people who don't want or need a fire breathing superbike or rolling couch anymore and just have something to throw a leg over and putt around the neighborhood. Above all it's to get people in the show rooms and buy. (Message edited by rsh on February 11, 2017) | ||
| Lake_bueller |
"Above all it's to get people in the show rooms and buy" All the above was well said but just as important to EBR was to get the BIKE in the show room. Not enough dealers was most like a huge part of the problem. Closely behind that was that they didn't have the right bike for the right time (i.e. " small bore standards ... to attract the next generation") Ultimately, it will be Erik's ego to build a superbike to dominate the world that was the nail in the coffin. The market doesn't want or need that bike. But Erik needed that bike. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Speaking of Belfur - any news on his cryptic messages concerning EBR? Blowing smoke again? As far as the GSXR and its cronies - they are known machines from RELIABLE companies. So in 7 years Erik has been put out of business twice...As much as I love the bikes and designs, that doesnt scream reliability. Why rush to get a bike which wont have support in a couple years? Plus, many, likely, were pushed away by the first EBR CF edition at 40k, that was what stayed on peoples minds, a forty thousand dollar sportbike, failed to look deep into the other, later bikes with lower price tags | ||
| Mog |
Ego?....nail in the coffin?....$40k bike fail? Indefatigable spirit, highly inventive, won the Daytona, etc. If you want to call that ego, my retort is, thank heavens for what ever it is called. I have lived long enough to own and ride anything Buell. Speaking about living long enough, just what will happen to the Buells I own? Well then, I have no control over the days after my demise but I can ride the wheels off until the bike or I gives out... so what! You can not take it with you. Ride it. A Buell is not a motorcycle.... it is a gift. Erik sold me a chance to do something I might have done..... had I not been in a career & supporting a family. Erik's fortitude, inventiveness and shear strength (pun intended) made my dream motorcycle come true. Dear God in Heaven, I am a blessed man to have any of what I can possess until I die. Until that day I shall do nothing but extol Erik's virtues and turn a blind eye to all else, for his dream is a wondrous part of my own.  | ||
| Snacktoast |
Ultimately, it will be Erik's ego to build a superbike to dominate the world that was the nail in the coffin. The market doesn't want or need that bike. But Erik needed that bike. This is a very ignorant statement to make. It can reasonably be said that, heck, if there was no 1125R, there never would have been an EBR. Your statements show your lack of information on the matter. } | ||
| Lake_bueller |
^^^ Mog...it's not the price, it's the product. The superbike market is a dying breed. The new rides want basic and simple. The old riders want comfort and balance. I paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $14K for my S3T in 1999. I've owned many bikes since. But is still the one I ride anywhere and everywhere. The folks a manufacturers like Ducati & Triumph realized that they needed to adjust to the market. Maybe without getting bent over and having to take it in the rear by Hero, EBR would be that market also. But that wasn't Erik's vision, that was the Indian's vision to dominate the USA market. I've meet Erik many times. I've always enjoyed is excitement, enthusiasm and drive to make the best bike in the world. But you can't run a business on just that. He need a product and service that people want/need. The current EBR line-up of bikes doesn't fit that niche. I wish Erik and the Elves the best of luck. If it wasn't for some other monetary requirements (like a roached motor in my truck), I'd be giving some serious consideration to getting a new SX. With a little modification (higher bars, lower pegs, hard bags), it could be my bike for the next 20 years. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It can reasonably be said that, heck, if there was no 1125R, there never would have been an EBR. +1. EBR started with the 1190RS because that's what they COULD design and build with the resources on hand. The 1190RX and SX were logical extensions of that- minimize additional design work and dramatically bring the price down. If Erik had had a bottomless bank account, an unlimited timetable, and a 200-person engineering staff, he might have started out with a completely different motorcycle model. He didn't have those things, so he built what COULD be built. EBR clearly intended to go in the direction you're suggesting. Erik talked about this during the shutdown in a Cycle World interview and EBR restated it since they restarted in January 2016: They were working on a new, sub-$10k model which they intended to release as a 2018 model. THAT might have been, or might, by an extremely long shot, even still be the bike to make EBR a viable motorcycle company. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Unfortunately the EBR brand is so tarnished at this time due to all the closures that I don't think it will ever be a viable commodity again. In the motorcycle business reputation is at least half of what sells bikes. Buell/EBRs rep is totally ruined at this point if you talk to non "buell" motorcycle folks. Combine that with the horrible marketing that EBR has done for the past 5 years and you have a failure mode that is almost impossible to overcome. Even with the bargain prices that the latest LAP EBRs were being sold at they still could not attract buyers. That right there told me that the brand was doomed. (Message edited by buelliedan on February 12, 2017) | ||
| Two_seasons |
I agree with Buelliedan. They have been undercapitalized from the start! I've got a co-worker who has his own race team, runs at BlackHawk Farms racetrack, has never rode a Buell/EBR, but magically knows that he could not compete on it. I can't stand listening to him! The poor marketing pre/post EBR, killed this brand. Very disjointed marketing for sure. Combined with service through an HD dealer who cared not for the brand, sales or service. No amount of Buell CS could overcome the relentless insensitive boobs at corporate HD and dealers. You can look through the archives of this site to validate this claim of mine. While I'm a johnny-come-lately to this brand, I'm glad to be a part of this forum in which I actively participate. And, I'll say it again, these bikes do indeed talk to me with each ride. But the majority of USA riders don't know that smile! And that right there is the shame of it all. No amount of engineering can overcome poor marketing/sales. Doesn't matter what the product is.  | ||
| Lake_bueller |
"so he built what COULD be built" It still goes back to the fact that he built what he WANTED to build. Unfortunately, it's the wrong bike at the wrong time. I'll continue to support the Buell and EBR community. It leaves me a little sad that my next "long term" bike will be a different brand. I've gained a TON of long term friends because of the brand. We will continue to be friends and continue to ride together. The external bullshit of the world is forgotten when we get together. I can't think of another brand that would have change my life in this manner. For those reasons, I will be forever grateful to Erik and the Elves. | ||
| Mog |
"For those reasons, I will be forever grateful to Erik and the Elves."  As for professional business folks having supreme knowledge skills and vast technology at their finger tips, I have kept this picture along with the Dewey Wins picture. Keeping the faith for Erik is an easy choice for me.  | ||
| Buelliedan |
Erik is almost 70 y/o and I have not heard about any of his children following in his footsteps.. How much longer does anyone think he can keep doing this even if he wanted to? I personally hope that he decides to just "let it go" soon and actually sit back and relax with his family. For all he has went through these past 30 years the man deserves it. | ||
| Tpoppa |
It was a hell of a ride. | ||
| Twirlin |
It was a hell of a ride. +1 | ||
| Airbozo |
I too am a Johnny come lately to the Buell brand. When I bought my Sportster back in 1995, I WANTED a Buell, but knew it was not the right bike at the time. I rode that sporty for 15 years before buying my S3T and knew I made the right purchase. Perhaps too late, but I got a great deal on a great bike. When I saw my '09 XB12R go up for sale I knew I wanted that bike, just to experience the Firebolt ride and handling. My neighbor kind of laughed at me knowing that Buell was not around anymore. He races a Kawasaki and a Honda (not sure of the specific models) at Laguna Seca several times a year and was curious why I would spend money on a bike with no support. Then I let him ride it. He was astonished how well it handled in the stock un-tuned state it was in. After being gone for a couple of hours he came back and asked if I would let him take it to the track this spring so he could experience it's full potential. He is still amazed that he never even tried a Buell on the track. Now he wants to try one of the newer EBR's and has even started looking at buying one (I know his wife will not agree to that unless he ditches one of his track bikes). If the Marketing would have been better, he might have been racing one already. | ||
| Court |
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| Grantcrandall |
So, anyway, what's next? | ||
| Hughlysses |
So, anyway, what's next? Well, based on their press release, LAP starts auctioning off EBR's production machinery next month. I'd think that includes the tools and stands for assembling the engines and bikes, and some of the rack storage. After that, my WA guess is we'll either see a slow wind-down of EBR into oblivion as they provide parts support for another year or so, or (very long shot) a deep pocketed investor will come along, and we'll see something of interest happen in about another year.  | ||
| Toxic |
Since they are already out of parts for the QS kits and some other small items, I imagine the multi-year parts warehouse is not quite as stocked as was initially advertised. | ||
| Twirlin |
Might they be more focused on service parts in lieu of parts more typically seen as "aftermarket"? I personally would love to see things like bodywork plastics, clutch and brake levers, etc become available, but I'm not holding my breath anymore. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Seems like it'd be a good time for someone to buy moulds etc and make a business out of it. Not sure how profitable it'd be, considering the low number of bikes sold, but still, it could work | ||
| Johndd |
The real problem for EBR is their certified repair reach is too small. Most prospective buyers probably look at the map and see a multi-state drive to the nearest dealer. They should have focused on small repair shops (like Hell Monkey Cycles here in Utah) to fill in the gaps. There are probably a lot of small shops that they could sign up for warranty repair and possibly as dealers down the road. This would have expanded their sales market to new areas. | ||
| Reepicheep |
While I would love the idea of a loose network of responsible and dedicated independent shops, I know my own nightmare of trying to find my own local mechanics that I can rely on. Even when I finally find a good shop, the good tech ends up leaving or being off and somebody else works on my car and screws something else up. A good shop might make it right afterwards, but its still a lousy experience. I can only try and imagine managing that problem for a nation wide ever changing network of independent shops, from a desk in East Troy. |
