| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Sorry to hear that Hughlysses. Please post here if you manage to find what is wrong with your bike. I did preliminary trouble shooting yesterday afternoon with no success. I checked all fuses and swapped the ignition relay with another one; no change in symptoms. I have yet to confirm that I don't have spark, but that's sure what it feels like. The Electrical Diagnostics Manual has a pretty straightforward troubleshooting procedure; I'll go by the book when I get a chance. | ||
| Etennuly |
Have you fully charged the battery? It will crank fast and easy with the plugs out, even if voltage is below 11 volts. That will not be enough to properly energize the ECM and the primary and secondary electrical systems to make spark. Test the battery. It must be above 12.2 volts to produce good spark. | ||
| Dan_m |
@Etennuly: battery was full charged at my last attempt to search for sparks, when I also discovered that rear cylinder has 0 compression. Voltage was close to 13.0 volts. @Hughlysses: if you will confirm that your issue is also no spark, please post here if you manage to find what caused this, maybe it will help me also. For now, priority to me is to see what is wrong at rear cylinder. Because here weather got worse and days got shorter (I live in a apartment block, so I have no garage to work in) with help of 3 friends we carried the bike up to 1st floor.  | ||
| Steveford |
What a great shot! As an added bonus you're close to the refrigerator. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Adventure cat! (Message edited by reepicheep on October 08, 2016) | ||
| Dan_m |
Update: things are not good at all. Before tearing down the engine i discovered that when turning the crankshaft none of the four valves are moving. Front cylinder valves were stuck in close position, rear cylinder intake valve was in close position, exhaust valve slight open -> this is the reason i had no compression on rear cylinder. The good part is that the piston did't hit the exhaust valve, at least i did not find any evidence. So upon tearing down i noticed that both cylinder and pistons are scored, i don't know to evaluate how badly, i will check them again today, take some pictures and post here. After the oil pump removal i discovered the reason that the valves were not moving-> the square key that secures the pinion gear on the shaft is shattered, or at least this is what i think because i can rotate by hand the pinion gear, and the nut does not seem to be loose. So i think this is also the reason that cylinder and pistons are scored, because i found small metal bits after oil pump removal. Another strange thing i discovered is that all 4 gear cams were seized in the oil pump bores. I managed to brake loose (with light taps from a rubber hammer) rear intake, rear exhaust and front exhaust, but front intake is absolutely seized in the bore of the oil pump, it is not moving a bit. Do you have any idea what could caused this? It seems to me that i'm dealing with very strange and unusual issues with this bike. | ||
| Steveford |
Did you have the pinion gear off? Sorry about your motor, it might be more cost effective to find a used one and stick that in. | ||
| Dan_m |
Nope, the pinion gear was never off. The only time i touched the nut that secures the pinion gear was when i had to slightly turn the crankshaft to set the timing (cylinder were not installed so there was minimal stress on the nut). I found on twinmotorcycles.nl a somehow similar issue, here they discovered that the nut was loose: file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Daniel.Moroz an/Desktop/TWIN%20Motorcycles_pinion.html If i was living in USA, maybe sourcing another engine was a solution, but here this is not an alternative. Either i will repair the engine or part the bike. | ||
| Dan_m |
this is the correct link: http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/artikelen.asp?cid=20 &aid=765 | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sorry to hear that Dan. A tip I heard from Pammy was that if your can feel scoring with your fingernail, it is a problem. Let us know if there is anything we can do here in the US to help. | ||
| Dan_m |
Thanks for support Reepicheep! I will check today again the cylinders and take some pictures. If i will decide to repair the engine, my concern is that i have absolutely no idea why the cams were seized in their bores, at oil pump side. When assembling the gear cams and oil pump last time, i lubed all moving parts with fresh engine oil, according to service manual. I am speaking about the cams that were seized because i'm thinking that maybe this put a lot of stress on pinion gear, resulting in square key being shattered. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Ugh. Sorry to hear it, Dan. It seems like the only way the cams could seize is if the oil supply cut off before they stopped turning. It would seem to be impossible for the oil pump to stop turning since it's driven off the end of one of the cams. I'm not intimately familiar with the details of the 08 cam drive gearing; is there any obvious way that could happen? Another possibility would be if an internal oil passage to the cam bearing surfaces got plugged up. If you didn't see an oil light while running that might be the more likely scenario. One thing I do know about the 08-up engines is there are no bushings for the cams; the cams ride directly in the aluminum castings (engine case and cam cover). If the bores are severely worn, your cases may be junk. OTOH, a good machine shop may be able to overbore the cam bores and install bushings. | ||
| Dan_m |
Yesterday i didn't inspected the parts removed, because i was so pissed from what i discovered. Today i will inspect every part, take some pictures and post here. Any tip how to brake loose front intake cam from its bore? Some penetrating oil and heat will help? The more i think that front intake cam is the only one that is directly driven by the shaft pinion gear the more i am convinced that this led to square key failure. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Any tip how to brake loose front intake cam from its bore? Some penetrating oil and heat will help? If it's seized, it's probably a metal-to-metal issue and penetrating oil wouldn't help. Gently heating the case might. If you have a slide hammer and can figure out a way to attach it to the cam that would be a good tool for the job. Otherwise, you could use some wood blocks to protect the cases and a couple of pry bars to pry it out. | ||
| Steveford |
Take out that oil pressure sensor and blow some compressed air through that oil passageway. If the problem isn't in there check all of the lines and oil cooler. Somewhere there's a blob of that snot Harley used to seal the cases. What you pulled out of your oil pump was unusual (to put it mildly). Woodruff keys don't just self destruct. I can hear it now: "Never saw that on a Sportster" which makes you wonder. | ||
| Dan_m |
I returned with some pictures. First i have to make some corrections: 1. The gear cam that was really seized in the oil pump body was rear intake; 2. Pinion gear nut actually was loose; 3. Rear exhaust valve (the one that was slightly open, actually did hit the piston. Rear exhaust pushrod is bend; As you will see in pictures bellow, the thing that i cannot find explanation is that i didn't find wear marks inside cam bores (as expected), but the marks were actually on the lip/edge of the bore. Front cylinder score:  Front cylinder mark (red circle) that i could fill with my fingernail;  Rear cylinder score:  Cams seized in oil pump body:  This mark that that rear intake cam made on it's bore lip (red circles) is something i simply do not understand:  Closeup with the mark:  Wear marks on the lip of the cam bores (on crankcase side):  Square key chewed by the pinion gear:  Closeup with square key:  So it seems that there was high pressure on the cams (in horizontal plane). My first reaction was to compare the thickness of original cam cover gasket with the one from Cometic. Cometic gasket is thinner with 0.1mm than original, but i highly doubt that this was the problem here. So what could caused this wear? | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
How do the gerotors look in the oil pump side? Do you think it ingested something? My ironhead dropped a couple of rollers from the cam followers into the scavenge pump and it also had a sheared key. Have you opened up the oil filter? That's where my '79 put its collection of shrapnel. | ||
| Tootal |
Well it looks like the key did it's job. Evidently the oil pump/cams locked up which caused the key to shear. Now what caused the lock up is the question. So are the bores for the cams in the case side ok? Hard to tell with the oil and glare. If they were locked up in the oil pump housing then your whole problem is there. I'm wondering if any of that goo made it into an oiling hole for the cams? | ||
| Hughlysses |
That is weird about the wear/scoring on the surface of the cam bores. There doesn't seem to be corresponding wear on the same surface on the engine case side though. The cam bores don't seem to be too bad. That mark on the rear intake cam and corresponding bearing surface is odd. It looks as if the cover were bolted into place with an errant piece of metal stuck there that later came out. How many miles did get on it before the 2nd failure? I'm thinking it wasn't a whole lot. For fairly fresh oil, the remaining oil looks awfully dark as if it got really hot or something. | ||
| Dan_m |
@Natexlh1000: by ingest, you mean if something foreign got sucked through the intake? If this is what you mean, i don't think this is the case, air filter is clean, it was changed ~3000km ago. Gerotors have some scoring marks also:  @Tootal: the inside of the cam bores from engine case side look very good. The cams made wear marks only on their edges. @Hughlysses: actually there are wear marks on the edge of the bores at engine case side also. It is highly visible in picture above at font exhaust bore. About the mark from rear intake cam, corresponding with bore edge, this is where i am completely lost. I did't explained in previous post, but the mark from the cam i am absolutely convinced that is there from factory (it is a debossed mark in shape of "8"). So i think the cam literally chewed in the aluminum material of its bore. Closeup with mark from rear intake cam:  As for the color of oil, this is something that i also noticed, but i think this has to do with aluminum fillings mixed with oil. Speaking of engine oil, i've seen on twinmotorcycles.nl (at articles section) that there is a drain plug for engine case also. This is something i did not see in the service manual. Picture with engine case drain plug (red circle)  | ||
| Steveford |
The wear marks might be from that missing section of the woodruff key being dragged around and evidently being broken into little bits. Those things are hard as can be, too. That bike went quite some ways with no circulating oil; didn't the oil pressure light come on? (Message edited by SteveFord on October 14, 2016) | ||
| Tootal |
I'm starting to suspect you're correct about the cams. Those marks on the side of the cams looks like a defect. The sides should be smooth and when you assembled it it actually pressed into the aluminum locking the cam up. When you started the engine it started cutting the soft aluminum and probably sheered the key at the same time. The aluminum and metal shavings started doing more damage after that. I'd look in your filter too and see how bad it really is. It's a shame when you buy new parts and they are defective or have been damaged somewhere along the way. Had you seen the damage you could have stoned the surface smooth and not had a problem but you never expect that with new parts. | ||
| Dan_m |
@Steveford: I never seen the oil light while engine was running. @Tootal: next thing to do it will be to open the oil filter and inspector it. | ||
| Steveford |
This sad thread is a perfect illustration why I'll never even consider buying a Harley Davidson. The motor assembly is totally their handiwork. The fellows at Buell couldn't even touch the engine unless they purchased it outright first. Could they have not only blobbed on sealant like an idiot but then let a woodruff key get raised up and instead of starting over they just smacked it together with a hammer and said good enough for government work? It kind of looks like it. | ||
| Sagehawk |
Looking in my 07 manual, I see that minimum end play for cams is .006" to .025". Was this value checked on overhaul?I see a lot of this type of galling on stainless shafts to 660 bronze bushings in pumps that come through my shop. Just no lubrication for whatever the reason. That different gasket might be enough to take clearance out once motor got hot enough and thru the heat cycles it endured. Once galling starts, it's a matter of time then till total failure. | ||
| Steveford |
The different gasket is the wild card. I kept looking at the gasket from the prior build thread wondering if that could play a part. I've never heard of problems with Cometec gaskets, though. Anyone? FWIW, I used stock gaskets when the Useless was redone around 800 miles ago. | ||
| Jasonmcelroy |
Mention of the thinner gasket caught my attention too. Especially considering the wear on the case came bosses as if cams were under load in an inboard direction. Everytime I change or setup a timing case I set the end plays on all shafts with the gasket I intend to use installed and fasteners torqued. I generally work on panheads and shovelheads so it's pretty easy to just pull the tappet blocks or put an indicator on the cam nose. Not sure how you'd do it on the Buell as I haven't been inside that motor yet (thankfully). If it's any consolation, that damage appears pretty minor to me and likely to be easily repairable once you've identified root cause. Insufficient cam end play seems like a good candidate from what I can see here. Jason | ||
| Hughlysses |
Brief OT foray: I just confirmed my issue was a bad crankshaft position sensor (CPS). I installed a used one I bought from a guy on FB and the bike fired right up. | ||
| Dan_m |
Thanks for replies! @Sagehawk: unfortunately cam gear shaft end play was not checked because i did not see any wear marks on cams or their bores last time. I am no mechanic, i only like wrenching at my bikes. Now i understand that this small detail actually could weight a lot. I checked the service manual of my bike (2009) for cam gear shaft end play and i see that value for new component is 0.127-0.356mm. So maybe if cams end play was on the tight side and considering that i measured 0.1mm difference in gaskets thickness this could lead to those wear marks. If this is the case, all i can say is that i am very frustrated, because Cometic could have made a note in the instructions, to aware about checking the cam end play. @Hughlysses: i'm glad you managed to find what went wrong with your bike, thanks for posting here! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Dumb question, but is the end play horizontal (in and out) movement? Movement along the axis of the cam shaft? Or is it up down movement on the free end of a cam only half supported in the cases? How do you measure it? If it is along the axis, do you have to put in some squish gauge stuff in there, bolt it up, then tear it down? I'm going to be rebuilding a 2007 over the winter, so this looks like a thing I should understand, even though it will be a bit different with the older cams. |
