| Author | Message | ||
     Dave |
If anyone else with starter failures would like to provide the manufacture date of the failed starter, we may be able to identify a bad batch, potential failures, and allow some preventative measures. Like others, my starter failed on my 1190SX -- with only 437 miles and literally on my way to my 1st service appointment. The starter was manufactured 2013/11/08. Failure was due to corrosion inside the cap housing the electrics (brushes). I rode it in the rain once for about 30 miles. The next day I washed it with a regular garden hose - not a pressurized car wash. This was the first and only time I washed it. Skeptical of a starter failure on my new EBR, I went through all the troubleshooting steps testing battery, fuses, relays, clutch switch, searching for nonexistent sidestand switch, starter solenoid, etc. My assessment: Root cause seems to be from an inadequate cap seal due to a marginally thin O-Ring that does not provide sufficient surface contact. (The new starter appears to have a thicker O-Ring.) The cap to starter body seal is in direct line of water spray from the front tire. The other end of the starter has a cap as well without any sign of water entry. However it is not in the direct path of tire spray. Caution: While attempting to wiggle the radiator a bit to see where it was mounted, my coolant reservoir dislodged from the plastic mounting tabs with little effort. The tabs appear to have some type of lightweight white glue bonding them to the reservoir. I did locate the hidden top mounting screw at this time... I removed the right side fan shroud and cladding to gain access to the right side radiator, I removed the starter by separating the hose that connects both radiators. (One clamp) A catch pan is needed to collect the coolant. After removing a (hidden) top radiator mount screw and bottom rubber pin mounts, I rotated the radiator away from the engine (out) and slightly up to gain access to the starter. I secured it with a wire hanger from the handlebars. I did not remove the exhaust or other hoses as some others mentioned. I removed the electrical connection nut/washer along with the 2 starter bolts, a couple taps on the starter from the left side freed it relatively easily from the engine. There is a rubber seal on the engine side. Installation of the new starter (purchased from Dan at NHRS) was pretty much in reverse order. I used Permatex contact cement to glue the coolant reservoir tabs to the reservoir. A clamp and some rubber bands held them in place while the glue set. I refilled the radiator and coolant reservoir and went through a few cycles of letting it run to temp, and shutting down to work out any air pockets.               DAve (Message edited by DAve on August 13, 2015) | ||
| Yamatr3 |
What is your bikes serial number? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Very nice write-up, Dave. | ||
| Dmhines |
Thanks for the pics! | ||
| Dave |
Laguna Blue 1190SX #130 MFR 7/2014. Thanks guys DAve | ||
| Steveford |
You know that will come in handy for other people - thanks for taking the time to do this. | ||
| Dave |
Roger that. The KB on BadWeb is a gem and a bit more reliable than other forums (my opinion) DAve | ||
| _lightshow |
Wicked White 1190sx #092/ 7/2014. Wondering if there's a pattern here? 3000 miles and all is fine. | ||
| _lightshow |
My Bad: Thanks Dave, for talking the time to provide us with your Rockin post. Now having my second cup of coffee.lol _jon | ||
| Snacktoast |
The earlier starter motors were prone to water intrusion. | ||
| 1_mike |
Hmmm...not good, mines #028..! But so far...with the odd weather we've had in CA with a coupla light rains...so far, so good. Maybe I should take the starter off, clean it, and seal it better for the upcoming winter, since I normally drive my bike in the rain. Mike (Message edited by 1_mike on August 15, 2015) | ||
| Dave |
Not bustin' balls but I've seen mostly vague speculation (Internet in general) on starter failure & replacement rather than facts. It would be helpful if "earlier starter motors" would have more qualifying details. Everything from the failed starters were because EBR was using left over NOS parts from '09 '10 1125s to dropping exhaust and both radiators to get the bugger out. FACTS are good such as MFR date, serial number of bike or starter. Otherwise, every 1190 could be prone to failure. DAve | ||
| Snacktoast |
Any comments about any NOS 1125 powertrain parts being used on 1190 RX/SX is patently false. The starter isnt even from the same vendor. How is that for facts? Consider it accurate enough to be from the horse's mouth. Sorry, I dont have a date range for mfg that narrows it down more. Sometimes the obvious stuff goes without saying, but It would really be wise to not spray the starter area when you are washing the bike | ||
| _lightshow |
It seems my Wicked White XS could be better off with the 1120 starter? Lets try to get date ranges down in East Troy. "Known Water Intrusions"? Don't care to park on the downhill; S1000rr, for the time being! _jon | ||
| Dave |
Patrick J posted another write up on the FB 1190 page. He pulled the right fan shroud and fan to get to his starter - a better way I couldn't find how the fan came out. https://www.facebook.com/groups/289943317829883?_r dr=p&message_id=520685371422342 DAve | ||
| Dave |
Cleaned up the original starter today. All 4 brushes were corroded stuck in place. https://youtu.be/J14KZ8uWmFM DAve | ||
| Dave |
An 1190 owner in the UK watching the FB thread (1190 group) added that his starter is actually a Denso 228000-6900. Used on BMW, Seadoo, Bombardier ... much less than the OEM and much more availability. DAve | ||
| Dave |
My brushes - 2 of 4 unstuck at this point  (Message edited by DAve on August 24, 2015) | ||
| _lightshow |
My apologies Dave, for not replying to your PM. (Thanks,too, for all that you do here! (not used to PM's not being on the site they relate to}Gotta get over that, it seems.! Have been in touch with my Fulton,TX dealer (good folks) and, it seems the dealers portal is open; no data, though. Both my NY dealers don't plan on staying aboard. What were the numbers on the starter you R&R'd? Is it a Denso starter? I've drilled down 3 levels at Denso corporate. Hope there's no egg on my face. _jon | ||
| Dave |
The EBR starter has pn 294351 on it. Dan @ NHRS said there are 0. Check out the other thread for the Denso - available all over the place. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/713 493/768844.html?1440512835 DAve | ||
| Spitfire1980 |
Is there any way to tell if this is going to happen to me? I'm a little paranoid that the bike is going to leave me stranded somewhere. I have an RX, number 275. I have about 1700 miles, have not ridden in the rain, and have not washed it. But the bike is stored under a cover outside. | ||
| Dave |
What is your build date? No crystal ball but there seems to be a range of failing starters. (1 annoying exception) I've gathered a number of data points. Pulling it, removing the cap, adding some RTV, could take 3 hours or so. Good quality time with your EBR. If you don't ride in the rain or have never got water on your starter-I doubt it will be an issue. DAve | ||
| Dave |
Around your serial number, failure due to starter corrosion was reported on RX 179, 199, & 279. Likely.... Being stranded sucks. Luckily I only had to push mine 200 yards or so. DAve | ||
| Pytalkamus |
I pulled the starter on 49 state RX #113 tonight. No moisture and no corrosion. Starter was manufactured on 11/08/2013. | ||
| Dave |
Thanks Pete. DAve | ||
| Spitfire1980 |
Thanks Dave, based on your info does it seem like riding in the rain is a consistent cause of moisture build up? My manufacture date is 5/2014. | ||
| Dave |
Yeah-riding in the rain and a range of build dates seem to correlate to failure. Pete's #49 is another exception (if rain is involved) DAve | ||
| Oddball |
I wonder if adding o-rings and or a bit of black rtv silicone on the outside of the starter would seal the ends better? It could solve the potential problem for current owners and be removable should you have need to open the starter at a later date. | ||
| Terrys1980 |
I have access to just about every o-ring size. If someone could take some measurements, I could possibly help supply some. Might go ahead and inspect the starter when my 1190 gets delivered. It's SN 054. | ||
| Malott442 |
SX #88. No issues on the starter. Sealed it with RTV anyhow. | ||
| Ebrfan |
It sounds like replacing the o-ring and sealing the starter should be a first mod to any newly acquired EBR. | ||
| Dave |
Thanks for the data point Malott442. I've created a spreadsheeT taking this. 1190SX build month? (VIN decal) How long have you had yours? Ride in the rain? Did you take it off & a post to seal it or just smear some on? Thanks DAve | ||
| Malott442 |
July 2014, only owned 2 months. Original owner never rode it in the rain, nor did I. I disassembled the body, applied RTV to both caps when assembling. I also labeled the starter with my name and date.... She's sealed more water tight than a duck's butt! | ||
| 1_mike |
I've been in about an hours worth of rain four times now with my early build RX. So far, starting fine. I have some time over the holidays, maybe I should give it a check..?! Mike | ||
| Dave |
Mike, I think that is sound preventive maintenance. RX or SX? What's the last 3 of your serial number & build date? I can see how it falls into existing data points. DAve | ||
| 1_mike |
Dave - As noted, RX. Last three - 028 Build date - 03-2014 Miles - 8048 Falls in pretty solidly...except for no current starting problems, as of about 3:35 this afternoon. Mike P.s. - Bought "one" day before the shutdown..! On the Saturday before THE Monday..! (Message edited by 1_mike on December 21, 2015) (Message edited by 1_mike on December 22, 2015) | ||
| Dave |
Wow Mike you've put some miles on the RX. :-) Here's the RX data. (SX's were built later & repeated last 3 of sn) Number Build MM/YY Failure Corrosion RX 018 1/2014 PM No RX 023 PM No RX 026 1/2014 No Unk RX 028 3/2014 Not Yet RX 040 Fail COR RX 090 2/2014 No RX 113 PM No RX 130 Not Yet RX 142 1/2014 PM COR RX 159 Fail RX 179 Fail COR RX 199 2/2014 Fail COR RX 275 5/2014 Not Yet RX 279 5/2014 Fail COR RX 282 5/2014 Fail COR RX 299 5/2014 Not Yet DAve | ||
| 1_mike |
Dave - I would have had much more but the bike's been sitting for the last three months while my broken clavicle heals from a front tire washout in the rain. I now drive almost 85 miles a day, up from 81 just before the crash..! Mike | ||
| Dave |
Ouch - does not sounds like fun. Hope you have a full recovery. And you pull that starter, let me know what ya find. Your serial number seems to be on the low side where folks have not been finding corrosion. I was an "After-the-Announcement" buyer after chomping the bit from the March discounts. DAve | ||
| D_adams |
Mine haven't had any problems as of yet. #110 is at 6200 miles, currently waiting on me to do a valve check/adjustment and the other one (#49) has a slow crank condition. Starter appears to be ok, I think it may be the sprag clutch slipping some. It just sounds weird/off when cranking it over and never spins fast enough to catch and fire up. I did pull the starter apart on this one, it was clean and dry inside. It's at 4300 miles, so I'll do a valve check on it as well since it's winter (well, it's been more like fall the entire time here) and I expect to have a short break next week to do MY maintenance stuff. (Message edited by d_adams on December 23, 2015) | ||
| Dave |
Thanks for the data points Dean. Either spent time riding in rain? DAve | ||
| 1_mike |
Nothing new to report here yet. I didn't want to pull the starter until I had a new one in hand to replace it with if necessary. As it turns out, it wont be here till tomorrow (Thursday) rather than last Monday as previously told to me. Not sure I will pull it apart this weekend as I have other plans. But at least, whatever may happen to my current starter, I'll have one in hand to do the quick (?) swap..! Mike | ||
| Dave |
Sane route I took Mike fearing the worst. https://youtu.be/J14KZ8uWmFM DAve | ||
| Dave |
Linked to related info. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/713 493/790524.html?1469758102 DAve | ||
| Darkducati |
Dave, bless you my man. Seriously. Even a year later this thread is still helping fellow owners. Thank you! | ||
| Dave |
 Get those 2014 starters sealed! You're Welcome but much still goes to Blake for keeping it (BadWeB) up! I research Buell stuff on here often. Someone messaged me recently about removing the primary cover on an S2 I documented with photos here about 12 years ago! Good stuff DAve |
